Talk me out of liking my tavor

[PappyM3]

Ok, here's an article that describes the specifics of the IDF special forces version of Tavor, its differences from the infantry one, AND why M4s are not liked(published in August of '23)

IWI X95: A Bullpup For IDF Special Forces – Small Arms Defense Journal

sadefensejournal.com

Do you want pictures? Here you go! This is the IDF Egoz unit:

Here's the actual news article regarding establishing the special forces brigade, which Egoz is now part of. The report contains the photo above.


Do you want an unofficial source?! Here's the Nahals Brigade's Special Forces unit called Gadsar Nahal's 2021 graduation ceremony, shown through the photos taken by family members: NBN-FIDF Lone Soldiers Program (LSP) on Instagram: "Mazal Tov to the Gadsar Nahal Chayalim on their Tekes Sof Maslul and for completing their Combat Special Forces training! We are so proud to be there and share in these special moments with our Chayalim! #lonesoldierlove"

The SA Defense Journal says nothing about actual use by SF.

But you finally found some evidence with Egoz! It appears some in that unit use it or have used it. And they clearly have it in their inventory if they need to use an extremely short rifle in the short barrel configuration for a particular operational need.

Though, it seems that most of Egoz, and more recently ... do not.













Also, it does seem as the Egoz training pipeline units use Tavors. Kind of like how U.S. basic training continued to use M16A2s for quite a while after M4s became prolific.

 

[Mountain]

The SA Defense Journal says nothing about actual use by SF.

This guy's gonna be very disappointed the second time he pulls the trigger, if not sooner...

 

[PappyM3]

This guy's gonna be very disappointed the second time he pulls the trigger, if not sooner...

Might be a safety rule when training. U.S. does the same if we’re not using blanks.

 

[PappyM3]

@40 Creedmoor fan You're right, Egoz LOVES using Tavors. I bet they're all so happy that Israel is innovative and forward thinking enough to get them the bullpup weapons they all want.

 

[Brewer]

This seems like much ado about nothing. I've seen enough reason to spend money on both platforms and so has Israel.

 

[AmeriKHAN]

The first time you get your sleeve caught in the magwell you will answer your question.

Operating a Tavor is torture itself. But then again, it was designed by Israelis.

 

[AmeriKHAN]

I can't grow a beard

 

[PappyM3]

This seems like much ado about nothing. I've seen enough reason to spend money on both platforms and so has Israel.

And if you like both or either, then keep on doing what you’re doing. I don’t actually have a problem with the Tavor and I’m not actually trying to convince people not to buy them. But I do think statements like the following are complete nonsense:

The AR platform technology is over 67 years old. Technology and design have moved on, but people are clinging to "America's rifle," just like with the 1911.
We like to make fun of Colt and consider Daniel Defense a top-notch manufacturer. Yet Colt took a chance on a new technology(AR-15) while DD is tuning an ancient platform and selling it for thousands of dollars more than it's worth.

Styer took a chance with Aug., and IWI took a chance with Tavor. I guess America is no longer the nation of risk-takers, gun designers, and innovators... Heck, even Turkey is taking our lunch with all these new designs.

Israeli Special Forces, including their highest tier Sayeret Matkal, are using Tavors. Their conventional forces use a mix of M4s, M16s, and X95s, with X95s slowly replacing the others.
…
As a result, US "aid" to Israel comes in the form of commitments to purchase Israeli products for use in US military equipment. Not because the US wants to help Israel. No! It is because feckless politicians have destroyed our ability to produce and innovate in the military sector, and we now have to rely on our allies for help.

...
The fact of the matter remains: US infantrymen are issued an old, albeit reliable, platform. They are trained to minimize the platform's deficiencies to be effective, but it does not mean our soldiers do not deserve a better rifle! Alas, the Army will continue using M4 until they are all used up. I can only imagine the stockpiles of M4s. They are so large that the Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco hasn't triggered any "replenishment" orders. Ukraine war has not triggered any replenishment orders. Let's face it: US soldiers will be issued M4 for the next 100 years!

 

[Alex9661]

The description says they were disguised as Palestinians... I'm guessing carrying guns designed by Israel for Israel would have raised suspicion.

As opposed to M4 designed and used by Arabs, right?

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

The SA Defense Journal says nothing about actual use by SF.

But you finally found some evidence with Egoz! It appears some in that unit use it or have used it. And they clearly have it in their inventory if they need to use an extremely short rifle in the short barrel configuration for a particular operational need.

Though, it seems that most of Egoz, and more recently ... do not.

View attachment 844936

View attachment 844937

View attachment 844938

View attachment 844939

View attachment 844940

View attachment 844941

Also, it does seem as the Egoz training pipeline units use Tavors. Kind of like how U.S. basic training continued to use M16A2s for quite a while after M4s became prolific.
View attachment 844943

Where is the proof that these are Egoz units?
You also seem to have forgotten the original conversation and are now moving goalposts. I claimed that IDF SF use Tavors. I did not say they're exclusive users of Tavor. No SF unit, IDF, USA, or any country is using just one rifle either. The Fact of the matter remains: IDF IS moving to wider use of Tavors.

@40 Creedmoor fan You're right, Egoz LOVES using Tavors. I bet they're all so happy that Israel is innovative and forward thinking enough to get them the bullpup weapons they all want.

View attachment 844951

That's not Egoz, habibi. You need to read up on IDF special forces. Also, you seem to post exclusive photos from Google without ANY supporting links.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

As opposed to M4 designed and used by Arabs, right?

HAMAS is very half-and-half when it comes to firearm use. Also, they did overrun a storage depo on Oct 7th and absconded with a boatload of M4s

Also, I would avoid using the terms "Arab" and "Palestinian" interchangeably. It's confusing. 1/3 of Israelis are Arabs. Many of them serve in IDF, and many of them were murdered on Jan 7th or in battles that followed. HAMAS does not care if you are a Jew or an Arab: if you're an Israeli, you are to be murdered, raped, or burned alive.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

And if you like both or either, then keep on doing what you’re doing. I don’t actually have a problem with the Tavor and I’m not actually trying to convince people not to buy them. But I do think statements like the following are complete nonsense:

Statements you've yet to disprove.

Try disproving at least one! Pick the first one, for example: AR design, on which M16 and M4 are based on is 60+ years old.

Go ahead, try it!

 

[PappyM3]

Where is the proof that these are Egoz units?
You also seem to have forgotten the original conversation and are now moving goalposts. I claimed that IDF SF use Tavors. I did not say they're exclusive users of Tavor. No SF unit, IDF, USA, or any country is using just one rifle either. The Fact of the matter remains: IDF IS moving to wider use of Tavors.

That's not Egoz, habibi. You need to read up on IDF special forces. Also, you seem to post exclusive photos from Google without ANY supporting links.

Most of those pictures came from the IDF’s official flickr account and state that they’re Egoz. And the picture you say is not Egoz, it’s claimed to be by the PM’s own official Twitter account, and their kit is extremely similar to the ones officially identified as Egoz by the IDF Flickr account. So.. how not Egoz?

And before you say it, these guys are NOT officer cadets.

Fact, IDF SF vastly prefer the M4. Okay, Tavors are in their inventory and they have used them in limited capacity. But they choose not to use them as default. Which is the point. They choose M4s, by and large for almost all uses of carbines. Just like I said of most countries where the conventional forces use bullpups. Their SF (as long as they have access to M4s), choose M4s over the standard bullpup.

 

[PappyM3]

Statements you've yet to disprove.

Try disproving at least one! Pick the first one, for example: AR design, on which M16 and M4 are based on is 60+ years old.

Go ahead, try it!

Nobody is debating that the original M16 is an oldish design. The issue is your statement “Technology and design have moved on, but people are clinging to "America's rifle,"

Just patently false when discussing modern M4s. Bullpups date back to the early 20th century and most “more advanced rifles” you mention use time tested long or short stroke piston designs which actually predate the AR’s quasi-direct impingement.

 

[Agnotology]

Why do we cling to M4's and AR's?

Because Kalashnikov wasn't american.

 

[PappyM3]

Tavor: Groundbreaking advanced technology!

Bullpup: Neva been dun b-foah!


Long strike gas piston: Neva been dun b-foah!

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Nobody is debating that the original M16 is an oldish design. The issue is your statement “Technology and design have moved on, but people are clinging to "America's rifle,"
Just patently false when discussing modern M4s.

What technology in M4 is so different that it is SO different from the original 67yo design? 67 years later, the rifle still can't deal with different ammo.

Yes, the technology has moved on. The British, Germans, Italians, and Israelis: all value each soldier enough to issue them proper modern rifles. Only here, in the US, we fix a few problem on a rifle and call it "modern".

You remind me of the 1911 crowd. TWO WORLD WARS!!!!! You don't need more than 7 rounds if you train enough. $3000 1911 is a very "modern" firearm

 

[PappyM3]

What technology in M4 is so different that it is SO different from the original 67yo design? 67 years later, the rifle still can't deal with different ammo.

Yes, the technology has moved on. The British, Germans, Italians, and Israelis: all value each soldier enough to issue them proper modern rifles. Only here, in the US, we fix a few problem on a rifle and call it "modern".

You remind me of the 1911 crowd. TWO WORLD WARS!!!!! You don't need more than 7 rounds if you train enough. $3000 1911 is a very "modern" firearm

Ah yes, they all use “proper modern” rifles… until you get to their SOF who can choose what they use… and they use M4 variants.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Tavor: Groundbreaking advanced technology!

Bullpup: Neva been dun b-foah!
View attachment 845082

Long strike gas piston: Neva been dun b-foah!
View attachment 845085

While at it, google "gas operated bolt patent". it turns out the M4 is really just an 1800-era gun if we were to use your attempt at an argument.

 

[PappyM3]

This sums up virtually everything you’ve said to me as arguments, or questioning of verified Israeli government pictures and unit attribution.



I’m out.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Ah yes, they all use “proper modern” rifles… until you get to their SOF who can choose what they use… and they use M4 variants.

You're right, German SOF uses M4's. Here's the proof:

The French Legionnaires also use M4s:

 

[PappyM3]

You're right, German SOF uses M4's. Here's the proof:

The French Legionnaires also use M4s:

I’ve said most. Yes, Germans do their own thing. They’re an exception. They prefer German made arms. Heads up though, the HK 416 is going to be replacing the G36. AR variant for the win. G36 had lots of issues.

French Foreign Legion? They don’t get to pick shit. They get handed the scraps that France gives them.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

I’ve said most. Yes, Germans do their own thing. They’re an exception. They prefer German made arms. Heads up though, the HK 416 is going to be replacing the G36. AR variant for the win. G36 had lots of issues.

French Foreign Legion? They don’t get to pick shit. They get handed the scraps that France gives them.

Except you wrote, "SOF who can choose what they use… and they use M4 variants." SOFs that do have a choice choose something else, apparently. Just because they don't fit your argument does not mean they must be dismissed or disparaged.

You like to make fun of the French SOF because they use the same rifle as the infantry? Hmm, I wonder if the US SOF, who are so elite, they must be using a better rifle than a typical infantryman...

 

[Broc]

Tavor is a 4MOA gun.

That is all anyone needs to know.

 

[PappyM3]

Tavor is a 4MOA gun.

That is all anyone needs to know.

The future… today!

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

The future… today!

Especially if it's an utter lie. So yes. this is something you will believe in. lies.

 

[Broc]

4 MOA gun. On a good day.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Tavor is a 4MOA gun.

That is all anyone needs to know.

If you're going to make stuff up, make it at least believable. I doubt you've ever seen, let alone shot an X95.

Here's someone who has shot X95 and got 1.5 MOA using factory ammo and no shooting sled.

I wonder what would happen if he used match ammo and a shooting sled. Will sub 1MOA be possible with X95? Wait! Does it mean that X95 is as good and better than the vast majority of 16" pencil barrel AR('cause that's what X95 has!)!? Can't be!

 

[jkelly1229]

Guys i got rid of my tavor

We can all put the purses down and back away

Now we're on to if i keep my 2011

 

[Broc]

If you're going to make stuff up, make it at least believable. I doubt you've ever seen, let alone shot an X95.

Here's someone who has shot X95 and got 1.5 MOA using factory ammo and no shooting sled.

I wonder what would happen if he used match ammo and a shooting sled. Will sub 1MOA be possible with X95? Wait! Does it mean that X95 is as good and better than the vast majority of 16" pencil barrel AR('cause that's what X95 has!)!? Can't be!

You just found the best group on the internet, a 1.5" group. Congrats.