SBR Loophole?

[Davidk]

Here's mine. Spike's Pistol lower with 11-inch, 6.8 SPC piston upper by Primary Arms. It now has a light on it and serves as my home defense pistol.

 

[DemonChronicles]

PM Derek, and commence the banning.

Promoting an illegal act, because I believe 100% that you should not be asking the Government for permission to build something??

This is the reason why we are doomed as a country.

Go time will never happen. Never.

So an honest question, did you build your SBR here in MA against the "rules" like you're promoting?

Or did you wait until you moved to NH?

Waiting for your answer.


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[Twigg]

The butthurt is strong in this thread.

[video=youtube_share;m-Gx6XeIjNE]http://youtu.be/m-Gx6XeIjNE[/video]

Oh, and IBTL

 

[DemonChronicles]

No butt hurt intended, just an honest question.


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[HKdrummer]

So an honest question, did you build your SBR here in MA against the "rules" like you're promoting?

Or did you wait until you moved to NH?

Waiting for your answer.


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Given Ntoms previous run in, and the watchful eyes of this forum, do you honestly think he, or anyone for that matter, are really dumb enough to post anything admitting to breaking their ridiculous rules?

 

[DemonChronicles]

Good point, forgot about that run in he had.


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[rkwjunior]

So an honest question, did you build your SBR here in MA against the "rules" like you're promoting?

Or did you wait until you moved to NH?

Waiting for your answer.




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If anybody was, it would be him, he is the forum Tuff-Guy. We all cower in place while he asks for seconds.

 

[crazymjb]

Funny thing... What happened to that Marine who used to post all the time that he has PMags, doesn't ask for permission, isn't afraid to post it online, etc, etc, etc... I haven't seen him around lately.

Mike

 

[Duece]

Funny thing... What happened to that Marine who used to post all the time that he has PMags, doesn't ask for permission, isn't afraid to post it online, etc, etc, etc... I haven't seen him around lately.

Mike

That IS at this point a supposition without any support

 

[crazymjb]

I'm just making an observation. I haven't seen him post the last few months. I forget his username.

Mike

 

[HKdrummer]

I live my life a very simple way. Do as you please and don't run your ****in yap about every godamned thing you do or don't do, legal or otherwise. Seems to work out just nice.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I'm just making an observation. I haven't seen him post the last few months. I forget his username.

Mike

I'm his Facebook friend, he moved out west.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

I'm just making an observation. I haven't seen him post the last few months. I forget his username.

Mike

Government took him.....

Out west.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

They do indeed. And if one stops by at the right time before they close you just happen to get lucky and see your good friend who works for SIG in order to get the 37.5% discount on accessories. WINNING! Oh and for anyone else who wishes to venture on over to the Pro Shop, they are now out of these braces.

Did you inquire to when they were getting more?

 

[Twigg]

To drool at all the guns, I stopped at the Pro Shop and they include the buffer tube for $148.80.

They do indeed. And if one stops by at the right time before they close you just happen to get lucky and see your good friend who works for SIG in order to get the 37.5% discount on accessories.

WINNING!

Oh and for anyone else who wishes to venture on over to the Pro Shop, they are now out of these braces.

Group buy ?

 

[crazymjb]

Hopefully he didn't move too far west... as in Kalifornia.

Mike

 

[Neuro]

The law isn't gonna tell you what you "can do". If the pistol has the ability to accept detachable magazine it falls under the assault pistol regs. if you make the magazine permanently attached, it no longer falls under those regs.

Define detachable magazine in this case. Is it the magazine itself, or is the operation of the firearm that makes the magazine detachable. Has the state defined this or is there case law somewhere to look at?

We all have a working understanding, but I am looking for state definitions here. And if the state does not have one, does it default to a federal definition?

For example, the SKS has a detachable magazine. But it can only be detached with disassembly of the firearm. When it is installed and the firearm is operational, is it still detachable?

 

[Neuro]

Wrong. You don't count features at all if it isn't "a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine"

Some people dont get that this is an exclusionary clause. If A, then B. If not A, stop....


But still would a bullet button or something mechanical that prevents detachable magazine operation be sufficient for this clause? or is welding the only option?

 

[Mike-Mike]

But still would a bullet button or something mechanical that prevents detachable magazine operation be sufficient for this clause? or is welding the only option?

In MA nobody knows until there is some more case law on the bullet button etc. I really like the AR MR2 conversion because it is reversible should you move or the law changes or SHTF.

Here is another fun one, What if you simply removed the gas tube from your AR and ran it like a bolt action? Now you can keep the detachable mags and really fool the moonbats.

 

[ntomsw]

I'm just making an observation. I haven't seen him post the last few months. I forget his username.

Mike

Make_MA_2A_Compliant I believe is who you are referring to.

If you search for his name, it no longer exists.

- - - Updated - - -

If anybody was, it would be him, he is the forum Tuff-Guy. We all cower in place while he asks for seconds.

So much FAIL I don't know where to begin.

 

[Youradolt]

In MA nobody knows until there is some more case law on the bullet button etc. I really like the AR MR2 conversion because it is reversible should you move or the law changes or SHTF.

Here is another fun one, What if you simply removed the gas tube from your AR and ran it like a bolt action? Now you can keep the detachable mags and really fool the moonbats.

Not really a bad idea for a home build

 

[pupchow]

I think the word l00ph0le should be added to the filter on NES

 

[rkwjunior]

Define detachable magazine in this case. Is it the magazine itself, or is the operation of the firearm that makes the magazine detachable. Has the state defined this or is there case law somewhere to look at?

We all have a working understanding, but I am looking for state definitions here. And if the state does not have one, does it default to a federal definition?

For example, the SKS has a detachable magazine. But it can only be detached with disassembly of the firearm. When it is installed and the firearm is operational, is it still detachable?

We could debate this all day, but to me welding the magazine to the receiver is obviously permanent and would make it extremely tough to debate the "detachable" definition. Detaching a welded magazine from a receiver would be extremely difficult without damage to either. I know there are some machinists out there that could probably get the job done without issue, but thats not the real debate here.
The real debate here is whether the mass murderer is gonna bust out his cutting torch in the middle of the shooting, i think not. As far as the SKS goes, i think this is pretty obvious also, a mass murderer isn't going to bust out his tool box in the middle of a may-lay to change his magazine. IANAL, but the ease of removing the magazine during a shooting or a gun fight is the real debate here, not what can be done in someones basement with tools galore and all the time in the world. I know none of these things are described in detail in the law, but these would probably be the obvious things that would come up if one was to have to defend his freedom in court.

 

[spcantwell]

sorry 12 pages is to much to go through... Anyone have any good leads on pistol buffer tube for the AR? or do you just use a standard buffer tube with a foam cover? I understand the only problem in MA with the AR pistol is the weight limit (assumeing you have a LTC-A and use only preban or 10 rd mags). Just looking into it right now (and yes I will start going through this thread and some other ar pistol threads, but i wanted to ask first)

 

[Neuro]

IANAL, but the ease of removing the magazine during a shooting or a gun fight is the real debate here, not what can be done in someones basement with tools galore and all the time in the world.

that is the issue, but we must only work with the laws as we have them. And if somethink like the bullet button, or ARMR2 makes a magazine detachable, then so be it. The law, currently says nothing of permanence, and that is the issue here, since these modifications make the magazine non-detachable while the firearm is operational just like welding.

Yes, to a layman, welding is permanent, but there is no legal definition of "capability to accept a detachable magazine". Specifically what makes the magazine detachable? is it not being able to remove it from the receiver at all, eg single part construction? Or is it not being able to be removed under normal operation of the firearm?

That is my problem here. without such definitions,even welding can be argued as having a firearm that accepted a detachable magazine, since the law states nothing about permanence of the magazine or the operation of the magazine in regards to the function of the firearm.

 

[Neuro]

sorry 12 pages is to much to go through... Anyone have any good leads on pistol buffer tube for the AR? or do you just use a standard buffer tube with a foam cover? I understand the only problem in MA with the AR pistol is the weight limit (assumeing you have a LTC-A and use only preban or 10 rd mags). Just looking into it right now (and yes I will start going through this thread and some other ar pistol threads, but i wanted to ask first)

For people in this situation, look for Sig brace dedicated buffers here.
http://www.kakindustry.com/sig-sb15-pistol-buffer-tube

these have a slightly smaller diameter than standard pistol tubes, but fit the Sigbrace perfectly. They have a design that also locks using a castle nut. If people worry about that sort of thing.

 

[Neuro]

In MA nobody knows until there is some more case law on the bullet button etc. I really like the AR MR2 conversion because it is reversible should you move or the law changes or SHTF.

I have a lawyer outside of mass that I asked this question too.

"When the state does not provide a definition of something.... for
example "detachable magazine" who do you go to for definitions...."

His response is right with how you and I understand things....

You look to case law when the definition isn't in a statute. Usually your local law library will have access to lexis nexis so you can look through cases."

So we have to look for a definition in Mass case law, which I assume has none. So what do we do if there is no definition at all in the state?

 

[Mesatchornug]

So we have to look for a definition in Mass case law, which I assume has none. So what do we do if there is no definition at all in the state?

I believe we follow our individual readings of the law, as befits our understanding and conscience, and hope to not end up the source of that appropriate case law.


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[rkwjunior]

Yes, to a layman, welding is permanent, but there is no legal definition of "capability to accept a detachable magazine". Specifically what makes the magazine detachable? is it not being able to remove it from the receiver at all, eg single part construction? Or is it not being able to be removed under normal operation of the firearm?

That is my problem here. without such definitions,even welding can be argued as having a firearm that accepted a detachable magazine, since the law states nothing about permanence of the magazine or the operation of the magazine in regards to the function of the firearm.

I agree with there being no absolute definition, but if i weld a magazine into my AR it's physically impossible to remove the magazine under normal operation, therefore doing a magazine change to take out more people is impossible. IANAL, but to me this is what matters most and what would be the subject of debated in court if i found myself there. Regardless, I myself will use commonsense when venturing into the gray areas of the law. Without question, I'd rather be caught with a welded magazine in my AR than an AR with a bullet button in this state, i would also take an SKS rather than a Bullet button equipped AR if i was so worried.

I believe i found the definition from another thread. So to me, it has to do with the Rifle still being operational while changing the magazine. Therefore welding is without question permanently attached, It can't be loaded without stopping the operation, same goes with an SKS. I definitely wouldn't want to be caught with an aftermarket add-on such as a bullet button etc etc.. in this state, they wouldn't give me the warm fuzzy feeling.

Section 25, (F) #4 "Detachable magazine" means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed without disassembling the firearm action;

 

[Neuro]

Section 25, (F) #4 "Detachable magazine" means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed without disassembling the firearm action;

I think this comes from Maryland law. Mass states that it recognizes the difference between fixed and detachable magazines. Since in the definition of large capacity feeding devices, they state. MA 140S121. So there is at least a distinction between these two types of 'feeding" devices. The issue still stands, that there is no Mass law that anyone has cited yet, that defines the difference between fixed and detachable magazine. In your definition above, a Bullet Button will work, to make it a fixed magazine, the issue, is that Mass does not seem to legally define 'detachable magazine".