SBR question

[Mesatchornug]

I agree with your colloquial usage of the word. The question is what it means in common legalese.

I’m told it can mean you didn’t have something, and now you do. Regardless of HOW you now have it.

It is totally grey and anybody who claims you definitely do not need to register builds is being naive.

Even better - law functions on definitions. If the specific law or regulation doesn't create a definition, we have to find one elsewhere. In English-speaking Common Law jurisdictions, it seems common to refer to Black's Law Dictionary. Failing to own a copy myself, I have pulled from this website that claims to include the text of Black's 2nd Ed.

OBTAIN Definition & Legal Meaning​

Definition & Citations:​

To acquire; to get hold of by effort; to get and retain possession of; as. in the offense of “obtaining” money or property by false pretenses.

So, does "building" a firearm meet that definition? Who's to say...other than a potential jury?

Eventually, we all put on our big boy pants, and make our own decisions for the risk we're willing to take.

 

[PappyM3]

So who did you obtain it from? That would be the transferee, if that person is you? No transfer has occurred.

The attorneys for the Boston PD in my case felt otherwise on what obtained meant

You can’t obtain something you already have.

But you didn’t already have it. You made it.

And you don’t have to obtain something FROM someone. If you found an old gun in your attic, you didn’t obtain it from someone. But you did obtain it

…
The attorneys for the Boston PD in my case felt otherwise on what obtained meant
…

I’m glad that worked out for you.

 

[PappyM3]

…
Eventually, we all put on our big boy pants, and make our own decisions for the risk we're willing to take.

Yup. It is definitely in the grey area and big boy rules apply.

The fact that it’s only a fine for failing to FA10 something, that it would be really hard to prove the date of build without pictures posted online, and that there is a 6 year statute of limitations, all make the calculus favor a more lenient understanding of this law. The risk is extremely low, and the benefit is high.

But, that doesn’t make it not-grey.

 

[AMV]

But you didn’t already have it. You made it.

And you don’t have to obtain something FROM someone. If you found an old gun in your attic, you didn’t obtain it from someone. But you did obtain it



I’m glad that worked out for you.

The law is silent on manufacture.

As we all know in America. Everything is Legal. Unless we have a law to say otherwise

Again no registration in MA. Only record of transfers

 

[PappyM3]

The law is silent on manufacture.

As we all know in America. Everything is Legal. Unless we have a law to say otherwise

Again no registration in MA. Only record of transfers

Again, they do not specify “only for transfers”. They use vague language that could be inclusive of building your own gun (or manufacturing if you go from an 80% or legitimately make a gun from scratch).

It is not a recording of owneship, but it’s still not purely a record of transfers. It is a record of obtaining ownership.

In your case, did the BPD attorney specifically tell you that their interpretation was homemade guns didn’t need to be “recorded with the DCJIS” (i.e. registered)? Or did they just advise against pursuing that charge because it would be impossible to prove?

Please don’t fall into their “it’s not a registry” trap they use to wordsmith justification for its existence. It’s a registry… just one where your name never gets de-linked from the gun.

 

[AMV]

It was a Glock frame transfer that was assembled into a gun….. ( per MA definitions) from parts already owned so no transfer occurred, so no registration was needed.
Long story I have told here before….
Look at the portal and what your options are for registration and transfers

 

[milktree]

You can’t obtain something you already have.

True... but if you make something, you DIDN'T have it before. You made it.

Clearly you didn't have a sweater in March when you bought the wool, but you did have the sweater in October when you finished knitting it.

The transition from "not having" to "having" clearly exists, in any definition of the words.

But, because English: you can obtain enlightenment through meditation. Maybe that's just an idiom that doesn't apply elsewhere, but it's a data point.

 

[AMV]

And you don’t have to obtain something FROM someone. If you found an old gun in your attic, you didn’t obtain it from someone. But you did obtain it

When you bought the house the gun came with it….the deed to house was transferred same as the gun

 

[AMV]

True... but if you make something, you DIDN'T have it before. You made it.

No laws regarding manufacturing and registration

 

[milktree]

Even better - law functions on definitions. If the specific law or regulation doesn't create a definition, we have to find one elsewhere. In English-speaking Common Law jurisdictions, it seems common to refer to Black's Law Dictionary. Failing to own a copy myself, I have pulled from this website that claims to include the text of Black's 2nd Ed.

Definition & Citations:​

To acquire; to get hold of by effort; to get and retain possession of; as. in the offense of “obtaining” money or property by false pretenses.

So, does "building" a firearm meet that definition? Who's to say...other than a potential jury?

This seems kinda clear. There's effort involved in building an 80%, or assembling an AR from parts, or farming potatoes, or knitting a sweater.

Eventually, we all put on our big boy pants, and make our own decisions for the risk we're willing to take.

Like every law ever!

 

[milktree]

When you bought the house the gun came with it….the deed to house was transferred same as the gun

That would be when you obtained it, no? You obtained the house with the land along with the appliances and anything left in the attic.

You obtained it all from the seller of the house.

No laws regarding manufacturing and registration

Except for the whole "obtain" definition bugaboo.

 

[PappyM3]

When you bought the house the gun came with it….the deed to house was transferred same as the gun

I’m giving a situation of a found gun. What if the previous owner of the house didn’t even know the gun was there? They are not the ones you’re receiving a transfer from. There is no transfer from someone.

But, you have obtained a firearm.

No laws regarding manufacturing and registration

Woosh!

There are plenty of laws with vagueness built in. Which means it’s not definitely legal… but also doesn’t mean it’s definitely illegal. Hence… a grey area.

 

[AMV]

That would be when you obtained it, no? You obtained the house with the land along with the appliances and anything left in the attic.

You obtained it all from the seller of the house.



Except for the whole "obtain" definition bugaboo.

Do you obtain a deed to a hose and property or transfer it???

 

[PappyM3]

Do you obtain a deed to a hose and property or transfer it???

Yes, you obtain a deed to a house/property.

All transfers include someone obtaining something. But not all obtaining includes a transfer.

 

[AMV]

There are plenty of laws with vagueness built in. Which means it’s not definitely legal… but also doesn’t mean it’s definitely illegal. Hence… a grey area.

Like what laws relevant to this situation?

 

[PappyM3]

Like what laws relevant to this situation?

Oh, I don’t know. Perhaps the law we’re specifically discussing, where various attorneys disagree on the meaning of the word “obtains”.

 

[milktree]

Do you obtain a deed to a hose and property or transfer it???

Both?

Do you want to get into the transitive and intransitive aspects of the word "transfer"?

If you can obtain a gun by buying it, you surely can obtain a house by buying it.

I don't see what point you're trying to make with this question.

 

[AMV]

I don't see what point you're trying to make with this question.

Only point is now you have something that was not yours to begin with, and came from someone else,,,,, And would require recording the transfer.

 

[PappyM3]

Only point is now you have something that was not yours to begin with, and came from someone else,,,,, And would require recording the transfer.

Nobody questions the fact that you (or they when in-state) need to record a transfer when obtaining a firearm from someone else.

 

[AMV]

Nobody questions the fact that you (or they when in-state) need to record a transfer when obtaining a firearm from someone else.

This was about your example of findings a gun in the attic….. nothing else

 

[PappyM3]

This was about your example of findings a gun in the attic….. nothing else

That wasn’t the point of that example. There are numerous examples of people finding old guns in their house that even the previous home owners didn’t know about. No transfer of the firearm from the previous home owner. Sure, it came with the house, but that’s not part of the official firearm transfer discussion. In terms of firearm law, you would have obtained it without a transfer from another person. You would not put the previous home owner as the seller on the FA-10. … if one chose to FA-10 it.

 

[AMV]

That wasn’t the point of that example. There are numerous examples of people finding old guns in their house that even the previous home owners didn’t know about. No transfer of the firearm from the previous home owner. Sure, it came with the house, but that’s not part of the official firearm transfer discussion. In terms of firearm law, you would have obtained it without a transfer from another person. You would not put the previous home owner as the seller on the FA-10. … if one chose to FA-10 it.

It was kinda a goofy example….. but for argument sake it was not yours….even a grayer area then what we are talking about now as to what the correct thing to do is.
Any one that registered it would be kinda nuts

If you did choose to do an FA 10. It would be no different than an out of state purchase where a seller is not listed

 

[AMV]

Not to beat a dead horse, what are your opinions on receiving the firearm after obtaining it?? and who would you consider to be the person who was the seller or donor,.....Not much about manufacturing huh, You can look up the legal definition of receive and source if you would like to.

If you manufacture something can you be the source, that you obtain it from, receive it from yourself and the seller or donor all at the same time??

who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than such a licensee or person, and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number

 

[chris_1001]

I’m really confused on what your interpretation of MA compliant is.

Ask mura.

 

[chris_1001]

My BCM is stupid loud thanks to the muzzle brake. If I move to a free state that thing's coming off ASAP.

People hate mine. I have two with bcm’s.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Not to beat a dead horse, what are your opinions on receiving the firearm after obtaining it?? and who would you consider to be the person who was the seller or donor,.....Not much about manufacturing huh, You can look up the legal definition of receive and source if you would like to.

If you manufacture something can you be the source, that you obtain it from, receive it from yourself and the seller or donor all at the same time??

who purchases or obtains a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from any source within or without the commonwealth, other than such a licensee or person, and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services the name and address of the seller or donor and the buyer or donee, together with a complete description of the firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, including the caliber, make and serial number

You know you can't manufacture as an individual, right? If you're not "in the business" then all you did was make or build.

 

[AMV]

You know you can't manufacture as an individual, right? If you're not "in the business" then all you did was make or build.

what definition are you using? build, make, assemble, put together....... you can't be in the business of manufacturing firearms unless licensed, but you can build from scratch, etc....

Edit: just so the wrong information is not spread, From ATF web site so this is federal not state level definition:

'Any person "engaged in the business" as a manufacturer must obtain a license from ATF.

 The term "engaged in the business" means— (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.'

 

[Mesatchornug]

what definition are you using? build, make, assemble, put together....... you can't be in the business of manufacturing firearms unless licensed, but you can build from scratch, etc....

Edit: just so the wrong information is not spread, From ATF web site so this is federal not state level definition:

'Any person "engaged in the business" as a manufacturer must obtain a license from ATF.

 The term "engaged in the business" means— (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.'

We are agreed.

Manufacturing has a specific definition, which doesn't apply to hobbyists.

 

[AMV]

Manufacturing has a specific definition, which doesn't apply to hobbyists.

the definition of the "business of manufacturing" certainly does not apply to hobbyists

 

[mcb]

The SBR is not a Rifle debate was posted here in post #3

MA-centric NFA FAQ

There seems to be alot of confusion and debate about NFA stuff in the state of Massachusetts. I've tried to cover most of the basics. Please send suggestions for common NFA questions so I can include them here. Massachusetts NFA FAQ This FAQ is written with a Massachusetts view of the world...

www.northeastshooters.com

My guess is they would try to work out a deal so they don’t have to rule on that. Same for ruling on the duplicate tests in the memo. An unfortunate ruling there could derail their master plan.