Rant: Moonbat Judge

[drgrant]

Disagree: Some people just come completely unhinged at the slightest perceived slight.

Yeah but usually the entire incident unfolds because one of the two people doesn't want to back off, because thier ego is too big, or they think they're going to get a prize or some bullshit. I drive 30K a year and I see it on the road all the time...

Example:

Old fart/camper/fudd type is sitting in the left lane camping a few mph below the speed limit. Some guy with an audi* or whatever starts honking and flashing his lights. Instead of old fart guy just pulling into the middle lane to let him pass him, old fart guy starts brake checking the audi driver. Then 10 seconds later the audi driver does something stupid to get around the old fart, old fart guy senses this and tries to like block the guy, etc, so he doesn't "win" etc. Then the audi driver retaliates and does something stupid, etc, and things progressively get worse until an accident almost happens. Now they're both locked into a "tasmanian devil spinning retard conference" of epic proportions, both having been "wronged" by the other driver, both of them now too ****ing stupid to just LET IT GO. The audi guy is just plain agitated, the old fudd guy is pissed off and thinks he is "right" because "who is he to be breaking the speed limit" or some other mindless bullshit.

-Mike

*I'm not shitting on audi drivers here, you could replace this with BMW, or any other remotely performance car.

 

[knfmn]

If someone jumps out of his car and is walking towards you, the proper response is to drive away. If he starts following you, call the cops and don't stop. If he doesn't have a very visible weapon and you have the ability to leave, but choose not to, it isn't going to end well for you.

 

[Carl in Ct]

As others have said, just drive away. If you can't you close your windows and lock your doors. If the guy starts pounding on your windows/doors you call 911 and let him see that you are calling 911. It's probably a good idea to keep mace or other non-lethal defense products in your car. The last thing you do is pull your gun and only if you need to shoot and are going to shoot.

I am much more careful to check my temper and not let my testosterone get the best of me when I am carrying (which is most of the time). If my ego gets bruised, I can handle it, I'm a big boy or if I get called a pussy by some stranger I will never see again because I backed down that's a lot better than going to jail, getting fined and/or losing my gun rights. Just not worth it. It makes me wonder how many times "tough guys" walk away thinking they won the argument when in reality they were the recipient of grace and mercy by a level headed guy with a gun who could have taken him out if pushed too far.

 

[Chet0729]

Some of the nicest people I know turn into idiots when they get behind the wheel. The car is that magical place where you automatically become a tough guy and no one can see you picking your nose.

 

[bigblue]

Some of the nicest people I know turn into idiots when they get behind the wheel. The car is that magical place where you automatically become a tough guy and no one can see you picking your nose.

It's like strapping on ice skates and pads...

 

[Chevy 2 65]

This is to send a message to the defendant - you WILL take the no jail time / PP for life plea bargain, or this judge will treat you like a common criminal and you'll do time.

This person will swallow hard, take the deal, lose his guns, and be a PP for life, possibly federally.

 

[Glockster30]

Not all of the facts are known, so "what ifs" could be discussed all day long. For example, if the defendant was locked in traffic and couldn't drive away, then maybe the issue of disparity of force would come into play. If the guy walking toward the defendant was 6' 4" and 275 lbs., and the defendant is much smaller at 150 lbs., then possibly the defendant could fear for his life or great bodily harm, so pulling a gun may be his only resort to defuse the situation.

 

[42!]

I've had this conversation with swatgig before.

The defendant is the kind of stupid gun owner that makes it more difficult for everyone else. All the facts we need to know are there. Idiot 1 approached vehicle unarmed. Idiot 2 pulled his gun so that idiot 1 could see it. Idiot 1 left.

Even if we assume idiot 2 was unable to drive away, he was still in a locked vehicle and idiot 1 was unarmed. I might be able to understand idiot 2 removing his gun from its holster and holding it out of sight, sitting in a vehicle can definitely slow down drawing. But if he did this we wouldn't be talking about this right now. No, idiot 2 had to show it so he could be the tough guy and "win".

Now we all get to deal with one more bad example that judges and antis will point to as the typical gun owner.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

I've had this conversation with swatgig before.

The defendant is the kind of stupid gun owner that makes it more difficult for everyone else. All the facts we need to know are there. Idiot 1 approached vehicle unarmed. Idiot 2 pulled his gun so that idiot 1 could see it. Idiot 1 left.

Even if we assume idiot 2 was unable to drive away, he was still in a locked vehicle and idiot 1 was unarmed. I might be able to understand idiot 2 removing his gun from its holster and holding it out of sight, sitting in a vehicle can definitely slow down drawing. But if he did this we wouldn't be talking about this right now. No, idiot 2 had to show it so he could be the tough guy and "win".

Now we all get to deal with one more bad example that judges and antis will point to as the typical gun owner.

Locked vehicle hahahhahhahhahhahhhahhahahaha , yeah because glass stops everything.

 

[MisterHappy]

Chevy,

The point is that the outcome, from what is a not-overly-wild response from gun guy (no shots fired), was bad, bad, bad.

Problem is that since the guy was outside the car, his level of "threat" was minimal (according to the judge).

Solid glass indicates that there was no "need" to draw.

Welcome to Mass.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The judge has done one service for that defendant - he now knows there is no way he should take a bench trial if he is unable to cop a plea.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Chevy,

The point is that the outcome, from what is a not-overly-wild response from gun guy (no shots fired), was bad, bad, bad.

Problem is that since the guy was outside the car, his level of "threat" was minimal (according to the judge).

Solid glass indicates that there was no "need" to draw.

Welcome to Mass.

I get it, its sad really. The gun guy should not have drawn his gun. To say in a locked vehicle is nuts, it's like saying military style backpack.

 

[VetteGirlMA]

One thing I run into a lot with my cars is this: People who insist on passing me to be in front of me, people who want to race, and the curious followers sometimes too close. One thing I am glad especially in this state is that I drive extremely fast cars so getting out of the way of idiots is easy. Thankfully with new england traffic I have learned to have a very long fuse. Still there are some people who live up to the m*******s title.

 

[Realtor MA]

Locked vehicle hahahhahhahhahhahhhahhahahaha , yeah because glass stops everything.

Laugh if you want to but I don't think a guy standing outside your locked car with a knife or fists is going to be considered a threat to your life until the windows are broken or a door is opened.

I'm amazed at people who get out of their cars in situations like this. They're basically asking to be run down or beaten to a pulp.


ETA I once watched an average sized young guy run up to a van at a light. He was screaming and pissed off about something the driver of the van had done. Well the guy in the van steps out and he's an older guy who literally stood about 6'8" and he was built like a linebacker. The kid basically cowered and went back to his car.

 

[GPP]

I've had two cases with similar fact patterns. Neither was arrested, and both got back their LTC. This one is not factually different, just a different judge.

Similar fact patterns? You havent given much fact.
Why did the guy pull out the gun? Was he able to articulate a legit reason?

"On the face of it"; no, he didnt diffuse anything , it sounds like he escalated it by pulling the gun. What you describe certainly does not require deadly force.

Id enjoy perusing your cases that were "factually similar" where no one was arrested and LTCs were just given back .

As far as your "lesson learned", my response to that would be "no shit".

 

[Yankee1956]

What would I do personally in a RR incident, drive away if possible. If I'm boxed in, no where to go and some asshat starts shit and gets out of the car I'd get my firearm ready and place it on my lap out of sight...if he has a weapon (bat,tire iron,brick etc.)I'd wait until he looked like he was about to smash my window and do bodily harm,then I would shoot.

My question is..he aproaches my car and sees my gun in my lap, runs away and calls the cops.Would I get in trouble just bc he saw my gun but I was not flashing it.
.
I'm not about to wait until my Damn window gets smash,glass in my eyes possibly blinded. Can't defend yourself blind

 

[bigblue]

What would I do personally in a RR incident, drive away if possible. If I'm boxed in, no where to go and some asshat starts shit and gets out of the car I'd get my firearm ready and place it on my lap out of sight...if he has a weapon (bat,tire iron,brick etc.)I'd wait until he looked like he was about to smash my window and do bodily harm,then I would shoot.

My question is..he aproaches my car and sees my gun in my lap, runs away and calls the cops.Would I get in trouble just bc he saw my gun but I was not flashing it.
.
I'm not about to wait until my Damn window gets smash,glass in my eyes possibly blinded. Can't defend yourself blind

You can be assured that his "recollection" of those events would vastly differ from your account.

 

[robjax]

Similar fact patterns? You havent given much fact.
Why did the guy pull out the gun? Was he able to articulate a legit reason?

"On the face of it"; no, he didnt diffuse anything , it sounds like he escalated it by pulling the gun. What you describe certainly does not require deadly force.

Id enjoy perusing your cases that were "factually similar" where no one was arrested and LTCs were just given back .

As far as your "lesson learned", my response to that would be "no shit".

And I agree with that...

Not trying to start a whole thing here...but you mentioned deadly force...

So is the mere act of pulling a gun considered using deadly force? Or would the actual act of firing the gun be considered deadly force? I need to take that class but I haven't yet. So if you can clarify that would be appreciated.

For the record I am a firm believer in that road rage is stupid. Drive up my a$$ if you want. On the highway if I am in the left lane I will move. Any other lane then you should be prepared to drive around me. Single lane roads you are stuck with whatever speed I am driving.

I'm also a big believer in sticks and stones. You can give me the finger until you are blue in the face. The most I'm going to do is just going to wave hello to you and that is only if I choose to acknowledge your existence. None of it is worth it to me.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I know the defendant personally. Can't say much, but you would need to know the whole story. (According to him). Jack.

 

[GPP]

And I agree with that...

Not trying to start a whole thing here...but you mentioned deadly force...

So is the mere act of pulling a gun considered using deadly force? Or would the actual act of firing the gun be considered deadly force? I need to take that class but I haven't yet. So if you can clarify that would be appreciated.

For the record I am a firm believer in that road rage is stupid. Drive up my a$$ if you want. On the highway if I am in the left lane I will move. Any other lane then you should be prepared to drive around me. Single lane roads you are stuck with whatever speed I am driving.

I'm also a big believer in sticks and stones. You can give me the finger until you are blue in the face. The most I'm going to do is just going to wave hello to you and that is only if I choose to acknowledge your existence. None of it is worth it to me.

Its funny, it seems many of these road rage cases end up with someone flashing a firearm lately, idiots.

Pulling the gun or "brandishing" is not considered deadly force. It is considered assault by means of a dangerous weapon though, if you are unable to articulate an acceptable reason as to why you pulled it.
Deadly force can come from a gun, knife, baseball bat, frying pan, car etc etc. You just need to be able to explain why you used it.

 

[GPP]

What would I do personally in a RR incident, drive away if possible. If I'm boxed in, no where to go and some asshat starts shit and gets out of the car I'd get my firearm ready and place it on my lap out of sight...if he has a weapon (bat,tire iron,brick etc.)I'd wait until he looked like he was about to smash my window and do bodily harm,then I would shoot.

My question is..he aproaches my car and sees my gun in my lap, runs away and calls the cops.Would I get in trouble just bc he saw my gun but I was not flashing it.
.
I'm not about to wait until my Damn window gets smash,glass in my eyes possibly blinded. Can't defend yourself blind

Im confused. In one sentence you state that youd wait until it looked like he was about to smash your window, then several sentences later you say youre not about to wait until your damn window gets smashed.

Having the gun in your lap prior to anything happening could go either way, and like mentioned, depending on the other guys version of events. Better to keep the rosco holstered until needed, though I guess on your lap could be considered open carry lol.

 

[CrackPot]

I recently took the Texas safety course required for a Texas LTC. Texas law permits the use of deadly force against an actor who uses force to try to unlawfully enter an occupied vehicle. (sec 9.31 and 9.32). So if they come up to your car and try and open the door and break the window, deadly force is permitted.

This does not permit the showing/pointing of the gun at the actor as they approach, but once they are there and take action against the car, you would be clear to defend yourself with deadly force.

No need to drive away. If you are aloud to be where you are (for whatever reason) you can choose to defend vs flee.

 

[robjax]

Its funny, it seems many of these road rage cases end up with someone flashing a firearm lately, idiots.

Pulling the gun or "brandishing" is not considered deadly force. It is considered assault by means of a dangerous weapon though, if you are unable to articulate an acceptable reason as to why you pulled it.
Deadly force can come from a gun, knife, baseball bat, frying pan, car etc etc. You just need to be able to explain why you used it.

thank you for clearing that up. although I totally agree with your assessment of these people pulling guns in these cases as idiots, i would like to take it a step further...what kind of idiot engages in road rage,. Do I get aggravated on the road? At times I do. Who doesn't. But never to the point where I'm looking for a fight. That's stupid.

It has been compared many times that you go on a boat, and I'm guilty of this, everyone is looking around and as soon as they see another boat they wave like they have been friends for years. In fact in most cases they have never seen each other before.

I drive to get from "A" to "B". Not A to B in a certain amount of time. Just want to get there without incident and most certainly without an accident.

 

[bigblue]

I recently took the Texas safety course required for a Texas LTC. Texas law permits the use of deadly force against an actor who uses force to try to unlawfully enter an occupied vehicle. (sec 9.31 and 9.32). So if they come up to your car and try and open the door and break the window, deadly force is permitted.

This does not permit the showing/pointing of the gun at the actor as they approach, but once they are there and take action against the car, you would be clear to defend yourself with deadly force.

No need to drive away. If you are aloud to be where you are (for whatever reason) you can choose to defend vs flee.

So... if said person trying to open your door is an undercover LEO...? That law brings up a lot of what if scenarios in me brain. Think I would still drive away.

 

[Carl in Ct]

I recently took the Texas safety course required for a Texas LTC. Texas law permits the use of deadly force against an actor who uses force to try to unlawfully enter an occupied vehicle. (sec 9.31 and 9.32). So if they come up to your car and try and open the door and break the window, deadly force is permitted.

This does not permit the showing/pointing of the gun at the actor as they approach, but once they are there and take action against the car, you would be clear to defend yourself with deadly force.

No need to drive away. If you are aloud to be where you are (for whatever reason) you can choose to defend vs flee.

Good for Texas, must be nice to live in a state where good guys still have rights

So... if said person trying to open your door is an undercover LEO...? That law brings up a lot of what if scenarios in me brain. Think I would still drive away.

If an undercover LEO wants into my car he better damn well identify himself as a LEO at that point and he also better have a warrant or some good and legal reason for trying to force his way into my car and state that clearly. If he doesn't do those things then he will be considered a non-LEO and I will try to drive away or defend myself if necessary.


Is it just me or is the new thing people trying to follow the car in front of them through a busy intersection? Happened again this morning while bringing my kids to school. 4 way stop with cars on all sides. The car to my left goes through and I was next (I was the car to the right and I was also there next to arrive at the stop sign so no matter how you look at it, I was clearly next). Guy behind the car who was going through the intersection starts coming through just after I start going through. So he has to stop in the intersection as I go through and I look at him and shake my head in disbelief. He had handcuffs hanging from his mirror and looked like a dirtbag in a little Subaru, not a cop. As I get through the intersection I think he made some sort of gesture at me like I did something wrong. Obviously I just kept going on my way but it pissed me off slightly. I have an overdeveloped sense of fairness/justice, always have, and I hate when some a-hole does something selfish and illegal and then acts like they were wronged. Still, not worth disrupting my day over, certainly not worth getting into a fight, going to jail or starting a gun fight over.

 

[kalash]

I lock my doors as soon as the door shuts.
If I forget, my doors auto lock at 5mph.
My doors never auto-unlock.
Tinted windows disguise what I'm doing (e.g. reaching for a gun) and provide some protection against the window being smashed.

Unfortunately the above doesn't apply when I'm in the convertible. But I'll continue:

I wear glasses - little chance of glass shards blinding me.
I have a dashcam.
I drive defensively and don't go dick-swinging on the road.
I pay attention. It's extremely rare for someone to honk at me.
I've avoided countless crashes by simply paying attention and knowing what people will do before they do.
I'm confident that you'd have a tough time catching me if I had to flee.


All that being said, we don't have much of a story here. Was the other guy aggressive and threatening or just coming over to exchange insurance info? Was he carrying a weapon or do you think he was going to smash the window with his fist? I'm having a tough time imagining a likely scenario where I'd feel threatened enough to pull a gun with no means of escape or deescalation.

P.S. I believe I was targeted for a car jacking about a month ago. I was paying attention. I was ready. Nothing happened.

 

[bigblue]

Kalash, I just wanted a ride: No car jacking intended...

 

[kalash]

Kalash, I just wanted a ride: No car jacking intended...

The only reason I didn't draw was because I knew you were carrying too.

 

[Carl in Ct]

I lock my doors as soon as the door shuts.
If I forget, my doors auto lock at 5mph.
My doors never auto-unlock.
Tinted windows disguise what I'm doing (e.g. reaching for a gun) and provide some protection against the window being smashed.

Unfortunately the above doesn't apply when I'm in the convertible. But I'll continue:

I wear glasses - little chance of glass shards blinding me.
I have a dashcam.
I drive defensively and go dick-swinging on the road.
I pay attention. It's extremely rare for someone to honk at me.
I've avoided countless crashes by simply paying attention and knowing what people will do before they do.
I'm confident that you'd have a tough time catching me if I had to flee.


All that being said, we don't have.much of a story here. Was the other guy aggressive and threatening or just coming over to exchange insurance info? Was he carrying a weapon or do you think he was going to smash the window with his fist? I'm having a tough time imagining a likely scenario where I'd feel threatened enough to pull a gun with no means of escape or deescalation.

P.S. I believe I was targeted for a car jacking about a month ago. I was paying attention. I was ready. Nothing happened.

Paying attention is so important and so many people don't do a good job of it. Smart phones don't help that at all obviously. I have been in three minor accidents while driving. Two were in snowy conditions with other people involved and I had no place to go when things got squirrelly around me and one was me having a lapse of attention for literally 1 second wile I was turning on the defroster and the guy in front of me slammed on his brakes and I had to ditch rather than hit him (hit a bank and rolled my car over). I think every close call I have ever had or seen was mostly due to someone not paying attention.

 

[M1911]

So what is the appropriate response in this situation? Call the copsh first? Don't stop? I get that pulling a firearm not in self defense is a bad idea in general but ... I have the feeling it wouldn't matter here. I think the problem lies in the fact that you are in a car that can expedite your removal from the situation: Egress.

1) drive politely and don't get into a road rage situation to begin with.

2) if you get into a road rage situation anyways, call the police immediately.

3) try to flee.

4) if you can't flee, you can only use deadly force if you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. An unarmed guy next to your car door is not an immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury. He might become such a threat later, but later isn't now, and you can't draw your gun until the threat is right now.