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Range Safety Rant
- Thread starter The Goose
- Start date
Can I scratch my nose? Mayhaps what we need is security chairs, anyone who isn't down range needs to sit in the chair which will automatically restrain them while anyone is down range. A motion sensor could be used to time the release of those strapped to the chair. Then we'd be really safe!
/Has it in for safety Nazis
//No diff from gun control
///extra slashies
Technically, it was Pioneer Sportsman, not Pelham.
Middleboro Sportsman where we had our pumkin shoot was like this. First range I ever went to with such rules. No biggie though.
+1 (even though it isn't necessarily the rule at my range)
I know where adweisbe is coming from, it is almost insulting. However, it deals with the worst case and is somewhat easy. If such a rule is in place and you see messing around of gear while you are 100 yards away, you know right away a rule has been broken. If you are allowed to load mags, etc., from down range you have to make the assumption that what is being handled isn't a firearm. It is too easy to break and get away with. When you don't know everyone in a club-type setting, I rather be on the slightly stricter side.
I agree though, there are definitely range Nazis out there and safety with good intentions can be conveyed in bad ways.
GTOShootr, do you shoot competitively? Do you see this practice in any sport? I don't see it in IPSC, IDPA, or NRA Bullseye, and in some of those sports people have the gun with them at all times.
If we are to equate all inanimate objects with firearms behind the line during a ceasefire how can people handle staplers or get targets from their bags? At some point safety demands we stay home with our impact helmet.
If we are to equate all inanimate objects with firearms behind the line during a ceasefire how can people handle staplers or get targets from their bags? At some point safety demands we stay home with our impact helmet.
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Rockrivr1
NES Member
Whoops, thanks for the corrections. For some reason I thought it was Pelham. Nice range setup at that club.
I've shot some matches. I was thinking I should have added something about that. We have RO/SOs in those sports. When we shoot those sports, everyone is being scrutinized for safety. That systems works. I was thinking about being at the club, sometimes there may be an RO, sometimes it is just you and someone you've never met before. I'm just saying I can respect such a rule while at the same time see where you are coming from.
J
Jose
I must be lucky. None of the shit I've heard here is an issue at the two clubs that I belong.
I even do some defensive firearms training with a group of NW Ohio arfcommers and we operate our training on a hot range principle. ALL weapons are locked and loaded at all times unless they are not under your positive control (in which case they are unloaded). Loaded weapons are under positive control, slung with muzzle up or down, safety on, finger off the trigger unless engaging a target. Virtually everyone uses a tactical sling of some sort, so controlling the weapon and keeping the muzzle pointed safely is pretty easy.
We do stuff like shooting on the move, shooting from stacks, run and gun scenarios, shooting from moving vehicles, and generally stuff that would make the average Elmer Fudd Fish & Game club RO shit his pants.
I even do some defensive firearms training with a group of NW Ohio arfcommers and we operate our training on a hot range principle. ALL weapons are locked and loaded at all times unless they are not under your positive control (in which case they are unloaded). Loaded weapons are under positive control, slung with muzzle up or down, safety on, finger off the trigger unless engaging a target. Virtually everyone uses a tactical sling of some sort, so controlling the weapon and keeping the muzzle pointed safely is pretty easy.
We do stuff like shooting on the move, shooting from stacks, run and gun scenarios, shooting from moving vehicles, and generally stuff that would make the average Elmer Fudd Fish & Game club RO shit his pants.
At a club everyone is an RO. The rules are posted, if a member is in violation you tell them to their face that what they are doing is against the rules, if they refuse to comply you file a complaint form and their membership goes under the microscope and may be terminated. The RO is usually downrange with the shooter anways, how is he going to see what people are handling at the line?
![[laugh2]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/014.gif "Laugh at above [laugh2]")
Safety should always be your most important consideration at any range, whether the management or other shooters realize it or not. Still, you need to remember that wherever you go, there are going to be people who whose primary goal in any encounter with another person is to find some way to behave like pompus, self-righteous windbags. You'll find that at the range, in gun shops, at work, and even here.![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
Ken
But Scrivener's most likely perfectly safe with a gun.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
- Joined
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Actually, he is.But Scrivener's most likely perfectly safe with a gun.
I always USED TO grab my ammo box and mags and step back and stuff them when a cease fire was called. Then at a RO's Meeting a few months ago our CRO made a point of telling us (I'm a RO at BR&P) that it was against the rules to do that and we should enforce that rule. I'll be damned, I checked my rulebook and he's right (of course ![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
).
So, I no longer do that at BR&P and enforce that politely along the line.
I understand the concern and the desire to use 'down time" as well. I honestly don't know if this is a rule or not at Mansfield F&G, I'll have to check.
Stuffing mags was not a rule violation at Sharon F&G when I was a member.
).So, I no longer do that at BR&P and enforce that politely along the line.
I understand the concern and the desire to use 'down time" as well. I honestly don't know if this is a rule or not at Mansfield F&G, I'll have to check.
Stuffing mags was not a rule violation at Sharon F&G when I was a member.
The real issue here is not the rules themselves, but the manner in which they are enforced. I have seen far too many "regulars" at my club berate newbies when a range rule violation occurs. This is not good for anyone. While a rule violation sometimes calls for decisive and immediate action, (say, a firearm pointed in an unsafe direction) in most cases, a calm, direct explanation of the rules is more effective, and more productive. I've seen newbies scared off by shooters screaming at them. Better to educate and encourage safe range procedures than to berate and turn out a potential shooter. We need to do everything we can to promote (safe) firearm ownership and use.
The worse thing a private club can have is club appointed range officers.Why someone would belong to a club that doesn't trust it's members to act in a safe manner is beyond me.
But this is MA,so I guess some people like nanny ranges.
But this is MA,so I guess some people like nanny ranges.
Some ROs get anal about AK's because they don't have a BHO. What I
do with mine is remove mag, check chamber, point downrange, and pull
trigger, then put gun down and step away from the bench.
If they get really anal about it, find a loose shotgun shell and jam it in
the action when it's open.
I can understand an RO being whiney about a bolt not being
locked open, but in some cases for a given weapon it's just impractical. If
they want the line to be 100% safe, the best thing to do is for the RO
to just double check the guns that don't stay locked open themselves, or to
provide free chamber flags. There are many guns on the market, both rifles
and pistols, that don't have a BHO or a slide lock. (Another example is a Ruger
10/22, unless the gun is fitted with an aftermarket bolt lock).
-Mike
Couple of months ago I was shooting at AFS in North Attleboro when the guy next to me was shooting his Glock, then in the middle of a string he stopped and went outside to get something from his car. Left the gun sitting unattended on the bench with a chambered round and mag in it. I informed the range officer who cleared the firearm and then kindly but firmly explained to the guy what he had done wrong. That is how it has to be done. Freaking out about something when it happens is something that is counterproductive and hurts the credibility of the one who should be trying to teach the other guy about gun safety.
reinbeau
NES Member
Well, I can't lock open my Kel-Tec. I had several people smarter than me try to figure out how and it doesn't seem possible. Does that mean I can't practice with my new gun? I know in Braintree I'd get spoken to about it (and not by Len!). I guess jamming a shell into it is one way to sorta accomplish it
D
daceman63
It's not so much that we don't trust our members. I am on the Rifle and Pistol Committee at my club. We are responsible for all aspects of the range. Safety. training, maintenance and repair, as well as follow up on complaints about people being stupid.
And I don't really think it's about the people liking "nanny" ranges as much as it is about the state (gov't) and what would happen if a range didn't implement or have range officers in charge of their ranges.
We do not assign range duty any longer. We are making all our member who want to be range qualified RO's. We want all of our members to be Range qualified. Members who are not may still shoot on our ranges but not with out a qualified RO present. If an RO is present the non-RO can shoot. Once the qualified RO leaves the range will be closed and the non-RO must leave.
If there ever was an accident (god forbid) I'm sure the state would do everything in its power to shut the club down but at least we have the RO program in place to show that we do care about safety.
Oh...almost forgot.....we tell all our RO's and members that if they see an unsafe act to politely remind the person that what they are soing is an unsafe act. We require they be polite and never confrontational. If a situation becomes confrontational they are instructed to close the range and leave and file a complaint with us or anyone of the club officers and if warranted call the police. Police obviously being the last resort but most of the police are members so that's very convenient for the club.
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TY43215
NES Member
Well, I can't lock open my Kel-Tec. I had several people smarter than me try to figure out how and it doesn't seem possible. Does that mean I can't practice with my new gun? I know in Braintree I'd get spoken to about it (and not by Len!). I guess jamming a shell into it is one way to sorta accomplish it
Chamber flag should work.
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=535054
Chamber flags:
More suitable for handguns would be one of these (commonly available from Brownells and Midway, many gun shops and gun shows).
9mm -.45 - http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=110564
.22 - http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=810143
Cost of the above is ~$2.50 per package.
The one shown in the picture (prior post) is commonly sold for larger rifles (e.g. AR15) and is much too big for Ann's little Kel-Tec.
In a pinch, a shell casing or pencil stuffed in the action will work.
Yes some guns won't lock back or will only do so on an empty mag (not manually).
Another option is to just holster it and/or put it in your pocket/purse (Ann).
Range Officers:
Apparently it is common in other areas of the country that ROs must be present for any shooting to occur.
At BR&P this rule for outdoor ranges got implemented due to a reported incident (bullets hitting a building 660 yds from the firing line). Even though it was proven that the bullets did not come from the range, the NRA range expert that BR&P hired put in his report that "no shooting should ever be allowed without a range officer present" and thus we are stuck with that for perpetuity! Believe me, most of us could find other things to do with that 3-5 hours/week or month (those that volunteer weekdays have to be there 52 weeks/year, those that volunteer weekends do one day/month)! [The whole story was reported by me as it occurred in the BR&P club thread.]
More suitable for handguns would be one of these (commonly available from Brownells and Midway, many gun shops and gun shows).
9mm -.45 - http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=110564
.22 - http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=810143
Cost of the above is ~$2.50 per package.
The one shown in the picture (prior post) is commonly sold for larger rifles (e.g. AR15) and is much too big for Ann's little Kel-Tec.
In a pinch, a shell casing or pencil stuffed in the action will work.
Yes some guns won't lock back or will only do so on an empty mag (not manually).
Another option is to just holster it and/or put it in your pocket/purse (Ann).
Range Officers:
Apparently it is common in other areas of the country that ROs must be present for any shooting to occur.
At BR&P this rule for outdoor ranges got implemented due to a reported incident (bullets hitting a building 660 yds from the firing line). Even though it was proven that the bullets did not come from the range, the NRA range expert that BR&P hired put in his report that "no shooting should ever be allowed without a range officer present" and thus we are stuck with that for perpetuity! Believe me, most of us could find other things to do with that 3-5 hours/week or month (those that volunteer weekdays have to be there 52 weeks/year, those that volunteer weekends do one day/month)! [The whole story was reported by me as it occurred in the BR&P club thread.]
I guess it depends on the context of what the RO's job is. Almost every
club has at least one Range Officer... at a minimum that person is responsible
for upkeep, posting rules, etc, and often monitoring safety stuff at organized
events.
But clubs that -require- an RO to be there to shoot? I'd have to agree that
I wouldn't knowingly join a place like that unless I had no other
choices. (Going somewhere, having the RO not show up, and then having
to leave, even once, would frustrate the snot out of me.).
FWIW, I hardly think this requirement is "common". I know of at least like
a half dozen clubs off hand (in MA!) that don't require an RO to be present to
shoot. Some may have range safety training or briefings you must attend
before you're allowed to use the range, but that's about it.
-Mike
J
Jose
No requirement to have an RSO present to use the facilities in either of the two clubs I belong to.
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I suggest that you join the leadership of your gun club. Do that and be around a while and you might be surprised (and not in a positive way) about how trustworthy some members can be.
You might be surprised at the stupid stuff some people do. Even after they have been through a 3-hour range safety orientation. Even with written range rules. Even though they had taken a Basic Pistol class.
The other issue to remember is that it takes just a single round escaping the range to shut down a gun club for good. The range at Camp Curtis Guild, a National Guard base in Reading, is still shutdown many years after a 9mm round escaped the range and hit a house.
TY43215
NES Member
Chamber flagsSNIP)
The one shown in the picture (prior post) is commonly sold for larger rifles (e.g. AR15) and is much too big for Ann's little Kel-Tec.
Sorry, thought she had a real gun
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
reinbeau
NES Member
I got me some real guns!
Top one's mine, bottom one's Greg's. Thing is they don't fit in my pocket like my little pal the Kel-Tec. We've got plenty of ammo for both, too!
And plenty more guns, that's all Greg wanted to haul out right before dinner![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Edited to add: Greg says we actually have some 'range flags', if that's the right term, I'll check them out in the Kel-Tec later on. Thanx, all, for the info!
Top one's mine, bottom one's Greg's. Thing is they don't fit in my pocket like my little pal the Kel-Tec. We've got plenty of ammo for both, too!
And plenty more guns, that's all Greg wanted to haul out right before dinner
Edited to add: Greg says we actually have some 'range flags', if that's the right term, I'll check them out in the Kel-Tec later on. Thanx, all, for the info!
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