Police Shoot, Kill Man During Warrant Search

[drgrant]

A side note.... The war on drugs and guns really pisses me off... because the malum prohibitum laws in play pit LEOs against ordinary citizens unnecessarily. Lives and blood are wasted because someone thinks an object is baaaad.

The d**kheads that write the laws never have to deal with the ugly ends of them, either... just the LEOs and the ordinary citizens. The citizens distrust LEOs unecessarily because they are tasked with enforcing a lot of laws these days that are inherently dumb. It used to be a long time ago, that if you pissed off a LEO you probably did something that was actually bad, or potentially actually harmful to other people- now all you have to do, is do or own something that the state doesn't like, and whether that act or item doesn't hurt anyone else or represent a clear and present danger to anyone else, is completely irrelevant. The rapid expansion of lame laws has often turned LEOs from "peace officers" into "enforcers of the whims of the state".

-Mike

 

[DoubleDoeHoe]

A negligent discharge is when someone pulls the trigger when they didn't want to. An accidental discharge is when the gun is discharged due to a mechanical failure, but the trigger was not pulled. Accidental discharges are far, far more rare than negligent discharges.

AAHHHHH "accidental discharge" I forgot about that term. Thanks

 

[Underwhere]

So it looks like more details are coming to light.

The two defendants have been released: one on 5k bail and the other on personal recognizance.
The police had reports of people buying drugs from the two defendants, not from the 68 year old man who was the recipient of a bullet that was discharged by the gun of a Framingham SWAT team member.

i.e.
The crimes were not bad enough to warrant high bail...both defendants are out and one of them didn't even need to post bail. Should there have been a no-knock warrant issued for a situation like this? Overkill (pun intended)

Did the 68 year old man die because he attacked police as they raided the house?

These no-knock warrants need to stop. The militarization of our police need to stop.

 

[GSG]

Accidental? Hard to tell from that write-up.

That's all I can say about this. It reads like a 1st grade book report. If the cop screwed up, he should suffer legal consequences, and he should be made an example of in training so that it never happens again.

Did you read the report or watch the 6 oclock news this evening??

You're the guy who's first few posts on this forum were defending your friend who was involved in a very questionable use of force incident with his handgun. You couldn't say enough how there was more to the story than was being reported, and were extremely upset by everyone's reactions to the printed article. What makes you of all people think that the media rationally and accurately reports news stories involving guns?

almost certainly the SWAT officer had his LTC-A suspended and all his firearms taken from him for safe keeping

That happens a lot. Doesn't make it to the news much because of MGL on the subject. There's been several stories posted on NES where it happened but the news didn't report that detail.

Again, for the record, being a cop isn't even REMOTELY at the top of the list for most dangerous jobs out there. I really don't think there are THAT many more people willing to shoot a cop than there used to be and going 20 years never pulling your weapon out of the holster wasn't uncommon until pretty recently.

Logging and salmon fishing off Alaska are dangerous, but in a more passive, natural way. According to studies on the deaths of police officers, more people are trying/willing to kill them. You'd be amazed at the tiny things that trigger homicidal violence too.

The crimes were not bad enough to warrant high bail...both defendants are out and one of them didn't even need to post bail. Should there have been a no-knock warrant issued for a situation like this? Overkill (pun intended)

Bail is about the likelihood of defaulting and to a lesser extent public safety. No knock warrants are about officer safety and preserving evidence. In the same way that an arrest that results in high bail doesn't mean that a no-knock warrant was needed, low bail doesn't mean that it wasn't needed.

 

[n1oty]

We've really hit rock bottom if an innocent person dying due to negligence of the state is considered "nature of the business".

This. This is, by far, the most honest statement concerning no-knocks. The routine use of no-knocks and SWAT has to end. Something is inherently wrong when the need to preserve evidence in any drug case is more important than human life. Disgusting.

 

[FalArAk]

Nothing to see here,just Framingham SWAT justifying the federal money they receive every year for the failed WOD.

The WOD is here to stay,it is nothing to do with drugs,and everything to do with keeping more cops on the payroll and more federal money flowing in.

 

[Big_Red]

"Eurie was laying in the bed and they said somehow the gun just discharged. I am not sure how a gun can just discharge, but that is what they are saying," Framingham resident Dwayne Barrett said.

My first thought was that the DEA Agent from Florida who shot his own foot was now working in Mass.

 

[DukeInFlorida]

Not a very good way to supplement your Social Security!!!! Old timers beware!!

Don't take the evil money! No good will come of it.

THIS is the example of negligent/accidental discharge.... in a school for gods sake!!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The facts are not yet in, but it's a credit to the Framigham PD that enough information was initially released that makes it hard to "fine tune" the story later. In a dirty department, chances are the reaction would be "don't nobody say nutting til we get our stories straight", and then there would be a very consistent story about how the subject made a classic furtive movement and was then shot in self defense. A story like that will be a hard sell if i't's first offered weeks after the initial shooting. The Framingham PD has a reputation for being both professional and clean, and there is a better than average chance the public will get a story resembling the truth.

My guess is that the chances of the officer suffering career damage (inability to be promoted to certain key positions years down the road) is high; (s)he might get some internal discipline; but won't be prosecuted. I give 50% odds the name will be released without legal action; 25% odds the name will be obtained by the newspaper with some digging; and 25% odds they keep the name a secret.

 

[SClaflin]

Just to clarify, this does not appear to have been a no-knock situation.

According to police accounts, police then knocked on the apartment's door and identified themselves. When no one answered, the SWAT team broke down the door.

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/f...am-man-shot-and-killed-during-SWAT-raid?img=3

 

[Martlet]

Yeah, good luck with that. HAHA I'm sure you would have had that guy at your dinner table, yeah, I'm sure, sure,, keep fooling yourself. HAHA

BOOO

Yeah. You don't like him, so who cares if he dies.

You're an effing idiot. Honestly. A true retard.

 

[tele_mark]

Yeah. You don't like him, so who cares if he dies.

You're an effing idiot. Honestly. A true retard.

.

 

[TomH]

Yeah, like I said.

Here we go,, all the cop bashing weirdo's around here wearing their tinfoil hats are now gonna stick up for the drug dealer in living in school zone, oh what nice folks.

Some of you folks crack me up,, but, I know it's me I'm all effed up. HAHA

I'm all for anyone putting whatever substance they feel fit into their mouths, veins, brains, etc. So yeah, I'll bash anyone who is against that or who actively contributes to the "war on drugs". That includes being a cop that enforces any drug laws by invading someone's house.

 

[rattletrap1970]

LOL Martlet
Well, I'm glad I didn't have to say it this time.

 

[Underwhere]

Bail is about the likelihood of defaulting and to a lesser extent public safety. No knock warrants are about officer safety and preserving evidence. In the same way that an arrest that results in high bail doesn't mean that a no-knock warrant was needed, low bail doesn't mean that it wasn't needed.

Noted about the bail.

Interesting. One would think that a bunch of people with guns drawn breaking into someone's unfamiliar home in the middle of the night is inherently unsafe.

There are probably better, less militaristic ways of accomplishing the same.

 

[economist]

Noted about the bail.

Interesting. One would think that a bunch of people with guns drawn breaking into someone's unfamiliar home in the middle of the night is inherently unsafe.

There are probably better, less militaristic ways of accomplishing the same.

Hell yes it's unsafe. If someone hired me to capture a drug dealer and I could choose between (a) break into his house at 3:00am or (b) grab him while he's walking to McDonald's, then I'm taking (b) every time. This is 100% about evidence and that is driven by the nature of a victimless crime. With no victim and no second-party property damage or theft, the only possible evidence is the property of the alleged criminal. And that's why securing that property is the most important part of the process.

 

[ccm75]

It was not just an accident, it was a "horrible accident."
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/n...amingham-man-shot-and-killed-during-SWAT-raid

You can bet the decedent's kin are looking for a lawyer right now....

 

[Lignum Vitea]

The militarization of our police need to stop.

THIS^^^^ X 1000

News this morning said man was unarmed. This needs to stop!

 

[glide]

It was not just an accident, it was a "horrible accident."
http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/n...amingham-man-shot-and-killed-during-SWAT-raid

You can bet the decedent's kin are looking for a lawyer right now....

I'm sure they will find one, sue the city, get paid off, then the problem goes away.

 

[HKdrummer]

You're the guy who's first few posts on this forum were defending your friend who was involved in a very questionable use of force incident with his handgun. You couldn't say enough how there was more to the story than was being reported, and were extremely upset by everyone's reactions to the printed article. What makes you of all people think that the media rationally and accurately reports news stories involving guns?

Touche but its apples and oranges. My buddy didn't kill anyone, and the only reason I was so defensive was because I knew him extremely well and had three first hand accounts of the story. Secondly I don't jump up and down EVERY single time and defend people, especially cops like some people here do. It's pretty ridiculous how some people here defend cops solely on the fact that they are cops, as if to say they can do no wrong. No knocks are becoming more and more frequent, especially for petty thugs and criminals, and are ending in death more and more often.

I agree that the media tends to report half truths but that isn't what is being questioned by members like wookie. He's questioning our "allegiance" to cops and that we are all cop bashers because in a case like this we see the writing on the walls, and this isn't the first time he's accused us all of "hating" cops.

BTW my buddy was cleared of all charges and wrong doing, given his gun and license back, and the guy who attacked him was charged by the DA and fitchburg PD. So neener neener neener I was right way back then

 

[GSG]

My guess is that the chances of the officer suffering career damage (inability to be promoted to certain key positions years down the road) is high; (s)he might get some internal discipline; but won't be prosecuted.

"Oops I thought he had a gun" police shootings and ND's that result in death or injury are prosecuted. I think we'll see it more now that there's actually shooting review boards and such in the mix as opposed to 30-40 years ago where any use of force was shrugged off.

Just to clarify, this does not appear to have been a no-knock situation.

Huh.

Interesting. One would think that a bunch of people with guns drawn breaking into someone's unfamiliar home in the middle of the night is inherently unsafe.

Of course it is. That's why a no knock will give them an advantage in many situations. I don't have any experience with them, so my opinions on the subject are mild and flexible.

I agree that the media tends to report half truths but that isn't what is being questioned by members like wookie. He's questioning our "allegiance" to cops and that we are all cop bashers because in a case like this we see the writing on the walls, and this isn't the first time he's accused us all of "hating" cops.

I don't know how much I agree with him in this particular case, but his general sentiment that cops get shit on by people from NES isn't far off. Not all knee-jerk moonbats are of the anti-gun variety.

BTW my buddy was cleared of all charges and wrong doing, given his gun and license back, and the guy who attacked him was charged by the DA and fitchburg PD. So neener neener neener I was right way back then

Your buddy pulled a gun over a fistfight, the guy he drew down on had a cast on his leg & called his bluff. He then fled the scene without reporting it and was caught by the police a few towns over. Disparity of force and legitimate self defense seem a little shaky to me in that case.

 

[Jose]

Your buddy pulled a gun over a fistfight, the guy he drew down on had a cast on his leg & called his bluff. He then fled the scene without reporting it and was caught by the police a few towns over. Disparity of force and legitimate self defense seem a little shaky to me in that case.

Evidently you don't know as much about that case as you think you do, since the outcome is not supported by what you say happened.

 

[Martlet]

I don't know how much I agree with him in this particular case, but his general sentiment that cops get shit on by people from NES isn't far off. Not all knee-jerk moonbats are of the anti-gun variety.

JBT's get shit on. Douche bags who shoot innocent citizens get shit on. Most cops don't.

 

[MetalgodZ]

Evidently you don't know as much about that case as you think you do, since the outcome is not supported by what you say happened.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I don't know how much I agree with him in this particular case, but his general sentiment that cops get shit on by people from NES isn't far off. Not all knee-jerk moonbats are of the anti-gun variety.

The newspapers carry stories of members of the public who rob, kill, steal and do all sorts of uncool stuff - with an occasional story of heroism. The vast majority of the citizenry does nothing newsworthy - just going about their business, following the law, not hurting anyone, etc.... and the newspaper doesn't fill the pages with stories of their un-newsworthy lives. It's the outliers that spur conversation and news, not the masses in the middle.

I have no idea what the real story is, however, on thing is clear - someone without a badge who shot someone would not be afforded the courtesy of their name being kept confidential for several weeks until the news story cooled down and the initial investigation was complete.

 

[HKdrummer]

I don't know how much I agree with him in this particular case, but his general sentiment that cops get shit on by people from NES isn't far off. Not all knee-jerk moonbats are of the anti-gun variety.

I still have to respectfully disagree on this. I've never seen a thread where a cop who is doing a great job or a thread about an officer killed in the line of duty, where people are being DB's.

Sure whenever a thread about a questionable situation comes about we jump all over it, for a few reasons. Mainly that if you or I acted in these manners, we'd be hung out to dry. Secondly the arrogance these officers in question exude is disgusting and is far worse because we entrust them to protect and serve us. Like I said my dad was a cop, I have good friends who are cops, and respect several others that I know who do great jobs. BUT and this is a big but, when an officer of the law UNLAWFULLY kills or assaults someone, or is an arrogant SOB to a 90yr old granny in a youtube video because she went 5 over the speed limit, ya I'm gonna jump all over them and tear em apart, mainly because there is absolutely no need for it. That doesn't make me a cop basher it just means I have a problem with dickheads.

 

[GSG]

Evidently you don't know as much about that case as you think you do, since the outcome is not supported by what you say happened.

Sloppy news reporting, charges washing in court and a pro gun CLEO restoring an LTC doesn't make me wrong.

JBT's get shit on. Douche bags who shoot innocent citizens get shit on. Most cops don't.

I have no idea what the real story is, however, on thing is clear - someone without a badge who shot someone would not be afforded the courtesy of their name being kept confidential for several weeks until the news story cooled down and the initial investigation was complete.

I still have to respectfully disagree on this. I've never seen a thread where a cop who is doing a great job or a thread about an officer killed in the line of duty, where people are being DB's.

It doesn't bother me to see criminals getting dumped on, whether they wear a uniform or not. I'm pointing out that when a cop does something awful, LE as a whole is condemned. Some of the finer members even step up to suggest murdering cops.

 

[MassMark]

Pay no mind to the resident Wookie troll...He's the polar opposite of a cop basher - he's a .gov tete suckler. Part of the problem who believes he's part of the cure. As long as there's taxpayer dollars to be vacuumed peddling his apps that infringe, you'll nary hear him say a bad word about the milk source...

 

[Bill Nance]

It doesn't bother me to see criminals getting dumped on, whether they wear a uniform or not. I'm pointing out that when a cop does something awful, LE as a whole is condemned. Some of the finer members even step up to suggest murdering cops.

The issue is continually betrayed trust and a ridiculous disparity in power. In the old days the cops left citizens alone alone concentrated on bad guys. These days, between a zillion ridiculous laws and the war on drugs, it's not just cops vs. bad guys, it's all too often cops vs. good guys who were either doing nothing wrong or something so piddling it shouldn't even have been bothered with.

Average people, not career criminals, are increasingly winding up dead, beaten, robbed of property or deprived of their freedom, even if it's only briefly, by the cops who are supposed to be on "their side."

Cops are given giant latitude and a great deal of authority by the people. When that trust is repaid with an "Us vs. Them" mentality and a growing militarization of the police, people are going to start being anti-cop. Sure, there are great cops out there. The vast majority in fact. But even the good ones get caught up in a system where good people are made criminals or they are put in a situation like this one where they are set up for an over-use of force.

In this case whatever they recovered from the two alleged drug dealers was probably tiny in quantity. I noticed they didn't announce what they recovered, so these were hardly some kingpins. I've seen plenty of warrants served. The no-knock variety are often differentiated from the knock variety by a whopping 20 seconds. "POLICE, we have a warrant!" followed by 20 seconds of pause (I couldn't get to the door from a sound sleep in 20 seconds) before you kick down the door and charge in with guns drawn is about the same difference between 12 and a baker's dozen. Little more than the name separates the two.

If we saw the police unions and associations raising Hell about the militarization of police, the corruptive influence of asset seizures and the WoD everyone would have a lot more sympathy for cops. When we see good people getting blown away on a fairly regular basis it's hard to be as sympathetic, even if you'd like to be.

 

[GSG]

Pay no mind to the resident Wookie troll...He's the polar opposite of a cop basher - he's a .gov tete suckler. Part of the problem who believes he's part of the cure. As long as there's taxpayer dollars to be vacuumed peddling his apps that infringe, you'll nary hear him say a bad word about the milk source...

Everyone keeps mentioning his apps, but I have no idea what they're talking about. What detail did I miss?

I've seen plenty of warrants served. The no-knock variety are often differentiated from the knock variety by a whopping 20 seconds. "POLICE, we have a warrant!" followed by 20 seconds of pause (I couldn't get to the door from a sound sleep in 20 seconds) before you kick down the door and charge in with guns drawn is about the same difference between 12 and a baker's dozen. Little more than the name separates the two.

When there's evidence that guns and grenades are stashed at various locations around the house, a 20 second head start matters.

When we see good people getting blown away on a fairly regular basis it's hard to be as sympathetic, even if you'd like to be.

I'm not talking about sympathy. When a C&R holder gets busted by ATF, no one on here screams that all C&R's are a bunch of dirty scumbags.