I don't need to hear it at all. At least one of our regular moonbats thinks it was a good shoot.
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Police Shoot, Kill Man During Warrant Search
- Thread starter Blitz1
- Start date
I don't need to hear it at all. At least one of our regular moonbats thinks it was a good shoot.
DickWanner
Banned
Hey now, if they didn't shoot people how else could they justify the big money spent on the SWAT training budget?
J
Jose
Tonight's local NPR reported that the Middlesex DA is investigating (standard?) and that all the DA told them is that it "appears the bullet came from a firearm issued to the Framingham SWAT team" which sounds like they're thinking it was an ND.
I hear the Framingham police are quite good, and regarded as professionals, and if indeed an ND, it's sad this happened.
I hear the Framingham police are quite good, and regarded as professionals, and if indeed an ND, it's sad this happened.
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In God We Trust
NES Member
Just to play devil's advocate here, police are rarely charged with crimes for accidental shootings because they are in a profession that requires them to point a loaded gun at people sometimes. Accidents happen when you kick in a door at 3am in the hood with a pistol mounted flashlight as your only means of illumination. That in itself violates the common safety rule "never point the weapon at something you have no intention of destroying". Now you have to point the weapon at everything you want to see clearly.
If we can end the war on drugs and stop all no knock warrants with maybe the exception of armed violent suspects, this shit could be stopped. Issuing no knock warrants in order to preserve evidence (the real reason they do it for drug warrants, not officer safety) needs to be stopped. The personal safety of presumed innocents is more important than any potential evidence that might get flushed. If the evidence can be flushed in 30 seconds or less, is the case even worth all this nonsense?
Anyway, to say that the cops belong in prison for a ND is stupid considering the nature of the job. If piss poor judgement or tactics were employed, fire them or put them on a desk, but prison is way over the top. How often do civilians get charged with murder for a ND in the absence of any other criminal behaivior?
If we can end the war on drugs and stop all no knock warrants with maybe the exception of armed violent suspects, this shit could be stopped. Issuing no knock warrants in order to preserve evidence (the real reason they do it for drug warrants, not officer safety) needs to be stopped. The personal safety of presumed innocents is more important than any potential evidence that might get flushed. If the evidence can be flushed in 30 seconds or less, is the case even worth all this nonsense?
Anyway, to say that the cops belong in prison for a ND is stupid considering the nature of the job. If piss poor judgement or tactics were employed, fire them or put them on a desk, but prison is way over the top. How often do civilians get charged with murder for a ND in the absence of any other criminal behaivior?
Bill Nance
Banned
Did you just seriously ask that? There are/were people on trial for manslaughter pretty recently for it in Mass and the ND wasn't even theirs.
I guarandamntee you that if I accidentally shot someone on my property because I thought they were a burglar but it turned out they weren't, I'd be charged. Maybe the cops need to stop pointing their GD guns at everything that moves. Again, for the record, being a cop isn't even REMOTELY at the top of the list for most dangerous jobs out there. I really don't think there are THAT many more people willing to shoot a cop than there used to be and going 20 years never pulling your weapon out of the holster wasn't uncommon until pretty recently.
In God We Trust
NES Member
Well, in this state, shooting someone for trespassing on your property is a crime, so yeah. If they were actually in your house, it's all good. If you read my post, I am against the no knock warrant BS. I am mearly stating that cops should not be charged with murder for a ND. Thats like charging a carpenter with vandalism for bending one of the bosses nails. nature of the business.
Change the business, sure but don't assume stupidity is murder.
I would have fallen out of my chair laughing over the idea that Framingham had a SWAT team if it wasn't over a story that shows them to be incompetent.
Maybe they have a ghetto bird to keep suburbia in line. What are they watching for? Muffy and Chauncy to have an argument? Some soccer mom to pull a DUI?
Bill Nance
Banned
1. I said it's manslaughter, not murder. I'm relatively certain the cops didn't purposely execute the guy.
2. "nature of the business?" AUFKM?
Bill Nance
Banned
dupe post
Except for the nail has no family, friends, or life. And you can get another nail.
I wonder if you'd feel that way if they busted in your door at 1am to search your son and shot your wife dead in the process.
Ooops. Our bad.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
How often?? Every G-ddamn time, that's how often. But it seems that if a cop does it, well... he's an Only One and that Thin Blue Line closes ranks around their little shooter and protects him.
You see it every time... every damn time.
If your running through a simulator and it's a no-knock warrant simulation and shoot a civilian target is it considered nothing on the course or a penalty? People suffer consequences all the time in there jobs from mistakes they make. Some loose there job or get suspended or re-located. From lowly jobs all the way up to celebrity status sometimes when you make BIG mistakes in your job you pay a price. Manslaughter maybe, not sure , would the family have a case against the PD or the Officer? Considering criminals family could sue me for wrong-full death in a self-defense shooting then ya he probably will get sued and/or the PD. I am not a fan of the lawsuit root though.
Just for my own clarification, is Negligent Discharge the term for accidentally pulling the trigger, or the round just going off by itself?
Just for my own clarification, is Negligent Discharge the term for accidentally pulling the trigger, or the round just going off by itself?
That's what I thought the term meant in this conversation. But I do believe a round could go off by itself given the right situation
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/12/28/police-miami-airport-explodes-bag/
Even if the older guy was a drug dealer, isn't he supposed to get a fair trial? Most people on this board stand up for the Bill of Rights and part of that describes a right to a fair trial. Shooting a suspect, assuming he was not a threat, violates that right.
We'll have to wait and see what the real story was but I really hope no-knock warrants are ended.
I agree with a lot of this, except the general conclusion. Because it is so dangerous and because mistakes will be made, these home invasions need to stop. Apart from a hostage situation I can't think of any reason to allow them at all. The notion that they might increase officer safety is ridiculous. Obviously the opposite is true. These guys are breaking into a home, pointing guns at people, and doing all of this in a very tense and violent encounter. That his situation is created by policy is the problem. The solution is not to say "mistakes will be made", but rather to hold government to the highest standard. I want bigger penalties for accidental police shootings during these home invasions -- much bigger. They create the danger, so they should pay for the consequences.
Now I know that police catch a lot of shit for being the point of the government spear. I don't mean to say that they necessarily want to be in that situation or that they are 100% responsible. So let's get every decision maker in on this. Charge the higher ups too. They ordered the invasion. Hold them accountable.
Otherwise, we are screwed. We simply cannot allow our government to invade our homes, kill innocent people, and just walk away. That's the start of something that will end well for none of us.
And once again, everyone note what happens when government tries to control private behavior. Think what you will about drugs. I know I have no tolerance for users. But look at what the vain and silly attempt to control these users has done to the rest of us.
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That round didn't go off by itself. It went off when the primer struck something when they threw the bag on the ground, and it wouldn't've killed anybody.
In God We Trust
NES Member
Yes, unfortunately carry weapons while kicking in doors is the nature of the business. Manslaughter would also not apply in this case because the guy was doing what he was legally ordered to do. Bill, I am in agreement with most of what you are saying. I just don't think criminal charges should be leveled at the guy based on face value of what little we have heard so far.
I despise the militaristic role our public servants now play in our society and I I believe the "war on drugs" is the biggest farce since the federal reserve act. No need to preach to the choir.
Except that a nail is not a human life, and a carpenter is not given authority over other citizens. There is a heavy burden that comes with being a LEO, and that is that your actions are generally held to a high standard.
I have no problem with LEOs getting a lot of leeway, as long as a gun owner gets the same rights when the LEOs no-knock the wrong house and a gun owner kills a couple of them. The door should swing both ways. The current reality is that it does not. If a LEO muzzle sweeps a "subject" and NDs into that subject, he often gets a get out of jail free card. If I do that, to say, a punk kid who breaks into my house without weapons, and helps himself to a sandwich from my fridge, then the DA is going to try to prosecute me for manslaughter even though the punk kid was an intruder. This of course gives rise to the idea that this whole No Knock business is bulls**t, IMHO it puts both LEOs and the public at risk. A no knock for narco crap is unnecessarily dangerous, for what amounts to malum prohibitum type BS.
I can understand a no-knock if you are trying to assault a known al-queda bomb factory flophouse at 2 am, but for some punks with some drugs? Absurd. No-Knocks for narco crap are bad for LEOs and citizens alike.
If "narco no knocks" were abolished, and self defense laws were sufficiently broadened, then none of this would really be a problem.
-Mike
A negligent discharge is when someone pulls the trigger when they didn't want to. An accidental discharge is when the gun is discharged due to a mechanical failure, but the trigger was not pulled. Accidental discharges are far, far more rare than negligent discharges.
In God We Trust
NES Member
Sadly, it is indeed the nature of the business. Anyone that has been watching the news lately can tell you that! It seems like once a week now a story like this is on the news. How many more dogs need to die before this shit stops?
If I am home at night and sleeping or awake and I hear my door smashed in, I am reaching for a weapon (A properly stored one of course) and arming myself. Any home invader with half a brain would yell "Police" in order to create confusion. There is no reason why the police would kick in my door, so I would assume that it was indeed a home invasion in progress.
If I stepped out of my room with a gun in my hand and a hail of bullets came my way, I am shooting back at that point. Now if the police would have been kind enough to knock, I would have gladly surrendered and had my wife call a lawyer. I don't see how they can think that surprising an armed man in the middle of the night promotes "officer saftey". Even if the guy is wanted for murder, I would think that most of them will surrender if they think about it for a few minutes.
Thinking about it with a little common sense tells me that the only reason for it is preservation of evidence. Not worth the risk to any of the parties involved in order to get some weed off the street IMO.
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