PLEASE TURN IN ALL FIREARMS!

[fubar]

You need to stow that shit ASAP, this is a public forum and this is very bad juju and not something that would be helpful to the cause if it were to be printed in the Herald, or plastered on the 5 O'clock news.

Remember that evil bastard known as the DC sniper ? Hopefully he will soon be put down by our justice system. It was very hard to catch the crazy man , because our country is so big , and our world is still relatively free - an urban wild west from the proper perspective.

I wonder if various law & order politicians who care so much for our safety and public order , along with the greater good are worried about a repeat ? Everyone was so worried , no one knew why it was happening ... or who would be next. I don't think the people would have been so scared if they knew the crazy man was looking for a particular kind of person - like maybe Domestic Enemies of the constitution. Maybe people wouldn't even be scared at all if they knew they weren't on the list.

I know I personally really like law & order and trust my government to do the right thing. I vote , and pay my taxes and raise my child to do the right thing. I'll turn in my old worn out 22 rifle , and a pump shotgun or two if I have to do it. ... and properly dispose of a crate of peripherals on my own - without being asked to - if the day comes to pass.

But I keep wondering if everyone would do the same. There may be a few ... maybe a few dozen ... extremists , who are in their middle ages , have children old enough to go on with their lives alone if need be , ... maybe a few dozen in each state , who do not know each other , do not communicate with each other , have "cells" or groups or any connection at all ... who aim to misbehave. How could anyone stop them ? Especially if in some odd way , people began to have a hard time keeping their cheering down to a low roar. ... Politicians are like weeds , of course - and if they were forced to ... retire , of course another would pop right up. I wonder if the replacements would have the balls to stick to their predecessors views. It may be easier to just let those Constitutional Extremists just have their way. I mean - they are law abiding patriots for the most part.

Because when you think about it , the head of a snake is only so big. ... and we can watch it on the news. or listen to it on the radio when we go camping alone once or twice a year.

 

[K-DUB]

see avatar for answer

 

[calsdad]

Well, all I can say is that I was born in this country. I fought for this country along with many of my own relatives. Some of which never came home. I have a son that is in the military today and I will say nothing more than I feel very strongly about the Constitution and the rights we as Americans have fought and died to preserve for hundreds of years. I refuse in any way, shape or form to make it easy for the government to erode my rights and I think that's the long and short of what most of us are saying. I/We are not traitors or enemies of the state. However, anyone that would erode the Bill of Rights IS.

I would not relish in the fact that I might have to defend the rights of all Americans by fighting our own troops. I would hope and pray that they see as I do that our Government could not be trusted to work in the best interest of it's people. I can tell you with all my heart that they would never disarm me in the manner if I had any way of preventing it that they did during Katrina. I feel sorrow for anyone that follows the politicians or the military beaucrats blindly. As a former soldier, I would always question any fight against Americans.

I have said all I should and god willing that day will never be forced upon the American people. I suspect that many of us that have spoken are far more determined to insure it never comes to that than other might imagine. Most of us inspite of what we say will probably hide our weapons until it becomes necessary for us to retrieve them. One way or the other, the government will have to "take them from our cold dead hands"!

From what I read about the New Orleans confiscations many of the soldiers who were tasked with carrying it out were very uneasy about it. But they still carried out their orders. It was actually the police units that were carrying out confiscations that seemed to be the worst as far as abusing citizens rights. The NRA video about NO (it's on YouTube) - doesn't have anybody that I can recollect saying their guns were taken away by military units.

I would hope that if the day that we are talking about actually came around - any military units involved would think seriously about the oath they took and seriously think about refusing to obey the order.

Police units are easier to control than military units thru political pressure. If we were approaching a condition in this country where the federal govt. is going to start confiscating firearms then there are lots of avenues open to fight it. If it is politically palatable - having your state secede from the union would be one solution - and it is entirely permissible within the Constitution to do so. If the Feds decided to institute gun confiscation I would expect Vermont and New Hampshire would probably find a very active secession movement within their states. MA - not so likely. Solution - very quickly move to NH or VT. Locally you could have a group of gun owners approach the local police chief and lay it on the line: Look Chiefy - what you are about to have to enforce here is unconstitutional. We are coming to you as fellow citizens and telling you that we cannot guarantee that this thing will not go down badly if you decide to enforce it. Who are you trying to protect here? Are you trying to protect yourself and your job (by siding with the Feds)? - or did you take this job to protect your fellow citizens (we the people who are standing in front of you right now) - and enforce the Constitution (which is the supreme law of the land)?

I would hope that a tactic like that might make many local police departments suddenly go out on sick leave whenever a gun confiscation was coming down.

There are many ways to fight this without a last stand type of scenario going down. But that threat always HAS TO BE THERE. I know many within the gun rights community feel that gun registration is an infringement on our Constitutional rights - and I agree that it is. But I also think that every time you buy - and register, a gun what you are doing is casting a vote - a vote that is recorded in whatever databases they govt. keeps. The vote is this - you are telling the govt. that they are just one step further away from ever being able to successfully implement confiscation because now there is just one more gun out there. And they now know this for sure - because they can do the printout and see the actual figures.

Last time I looked at the numbers there was something like 250 million firearms estimated to be in this country. We need to keep driving that number up. There are something like 80 million people estimated to be firearms owners - we need to keep driving that number up also. The more people who own guns - and the more guns there are out there in circulation, the closer to total impossibility we are making gun confiscation. This is an economic fight as much as anything else - vote with your wallet and buy another gun. Read and educate yourself so you can educate others and get them to convert into being gun owners.

 

[calsdad]

The other thing to ask yourself is out of all the govt. entities who would be tasked with carrying out confiscations - who do you think is the most likely? Regular military (Army, Marines), National Guard, or police?

If you answered National Guard then you have hit on the crucial piece of the problem , and the solution - maybe without realizing it.

Back in the "old days" - before there was a National Guard, what do you think the likelihood that there would have ever been wide scale gun confiscations would be? The only force the govt. would have been able to rely on to do such a thing would have been the regular army. Could they have ordered the militias to confiscate firearms? Who would the militias have confiscated them from? Themselves?

The system that was established in this country early on was a power balance designed to prevent such a thing from happening - the militias were not beholden to the Federal Govt. the way the National Guard is now. If you are a cynical person - do you really think this wasn't though thru at the time? I have read some militia history and in the late 1800's and early 1900's the militias were denigrated because they were said to have devolved into something not much more than a "social club". Well so what? What better defense of our Constitutional rights is there than a social club whose members comprise citizens from the local area - and whose underlying reason for even existing is to defend those citizens constitutional rights?

The day the militias were abolished was the day we started walking down the road towards complete federal govt. domination and ultimately gun confiscation. Unless people are willing to consider the ultimate solution to the problem of gun confiscation - which is to remove the power to do so from the hands of the federal govt. - and put that power back into the hands of the people - where it should be, by reinstituting the militia system - we will just be sitting here bitching and whining about the gun confiscation thing on the internet and inevitably it will really happen - and some of us might actually die during that time.

I bet 75% of the people who have responded to this thread will be absolutely unwilling to even consider this as a solution to this problem.

 

[Fsorrent]

I don't know if this has been posted before but why don't we start doing more in our communities together. Especially as Massachusetts Gun owners should we not be doing more to show the communities in Massachusetts that we are not the dregs of society? Should we not show the citizens of this state that the elected politicians have it all wrong and are only helping the criminals with all of the draconian gun laws?

I say this because I have been part of several groups that do community work and it helps to change the negative stigma that is associated with any of those groups. I think that it is time that we stop being good little sheep and start showing society that as gun owners we/you are not a criminal.

I like your idea! I agree. I feel as a community we should do more Open-carry philanthropies similar to the litter clean up to help raise awareness. Like an NES car wash, wearing all of our carry gear...and nothing else JK JK You get the idea though.

 

[Nickle]

I can't imagine that our military would fire at their own, but it wouldn't be the first time!

Don't make ANY bets on what the military would do, given an order like this.

And, I seriously doubt the military would be used to do it, other than certain units like Military Police, that already have the LEO mindset.

What Nickle would do, Nickle ain't saying. Both Nickle the citizen, and Nickle the soldier.

Now, the whole exercise is for naught, as almost every politician (they) is smarter than to try something like this right now. The outcry would be deafening, and the start of a new Revolution, and they know it.

They'll just whittle away slowly, until there isn't enough left to rebel with. Even Obama is smarter than to try this.

 

[BOBKATT]

I don't know if this has been posted before but why don't we start doing more in our communities together. Especially as Massachusetts Gun owners should we not be doing more to show the communities in Massachusetts that we are not the dregs of society? Should we not show the citizens of this state that the elected politicians have it all wrong and are only helping the criminals with all of the draconian gun laws?

I say this because I have been part of several groups that do community work and it helps to change the negative stigma that is associated with any of those groups. I think that it is time that we stop being good little sheep and start showing society that as gun owners we/you are not a criminal.

This is the truth and is the way that we really can preserve our rights. I tried to do my part this morning guys, a heated discussion with a woman who wants the U.S. to turn into socialists like Europe. For two hours I blew her away in logical debate and the others who were around took my side by a landslide but she still didn't budge at all. I tried.

 

[Fsorrent]

Anybody have some ideas on a philanthropy that NES can do as a group? I mean, something that would make some serious headline and make people stop and think?

 

[Mike-Mike]

Anybody have some ideas on a philanthropy that NES can do as a group? I mean, something that would make some serious headline and make people stop and think?

I am in! We should do something.

 

[BOBKATT]

I am in. I'm more than in. All of my friends are in. My dog is in.

 

[Fsorrent]

Obviously there are the usuals that may or may not turn heads...open-carry marches...open-holster demonstrations... but neither are what I'm talking about. I'm talking about really helping people out! That way it can be understood that we aren't demons or hillbillies but law-abiding American citizens.

 

[Fsorrent]

Like, for example, the Walk For Hunger that I'm doing this Sunday...it would be interesting if we showed up as a group representing ourselves. Or a community clean up

 

[drgrant]

Tough talk. That's a lot of what I read here. When you have to choose between everything you have; your life, family, home, job ... and armed resistance against a tyrannical power, how many will choose to fight?

I think to some degree, much of the commentary has to be put into the proper context for it to sound more reasonable and less like "puffery". It's hard to imagine this playing out "tomorrow" yet on the other hand, it's a
bit easier to fathom someone getting pissed when a bunch of other chips are already down, and reacting violently to "the man" trying to steal something from you.

I'll also qualify some of the statements, at least from the gun owners I know that value their rights, that the ABSOLUTE last thing any of them want to do is to have to fire in anger at another human. If it comes down to
it though, I think some folks would choose death over virtual enslavement. Hell, some could even argue we're already slaves to some degree.

To be honest, I don't even think that a -direct- confiscation scheme is even really that likely. As Nickle wisely points out, most of the pols are not that dumb that they would hand the public a catalyst for a revolution on a silver platter... at least not right NOW. Hell, might not even occur during our lifetime.

That being said....

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

Of course, there's an intelligent way to accomplish that (eg, via a critical mass of concerned citizens, gun owners, libertarians, whatever) . If it comes down to blows a gun owner is better off with a neighborhood of
gun owners than just himself vs "the man". This is even true in the more likely case of non-violent opposition to liberty infringing measures. We still have a substantial ability to change the situation through non-violent
means. We have 80 million+ gun owners- and some other undocumented number of people who may not be gun owners but may give a rats ass about liberty. Even motivating %10-20 of that mass to "do something" would be a step in the right direction.

I apologize in advance for the rambling nature of my post- but I think this is an issue which can be approached from many different angles, and there are many different scenarios that might play out.

-Mike

 

[BOBKATT]

Like, for example, the Walk For Hunger that I'm doing this Sunday...it would be interesting if we showed up as a group representing ourselves. Or a community clean up

Even T-shirts with a pro-2A message on them would work. Especially if a lot of people have the same one and they start popping up in different areas on different types of people. You might be a lawyer, I might be a doctor or a sales man, another guy might be a construction worker or a truck driver. All we have in common is we're pro 2A and everyone can see that and we come from all walks of life. We are the majority and we are the people that you interact with every day. The good law obiding types. Do good deeds with while wearing a pro-2A slogan. Show people who we are.

 

[Fsorrent]

That's an obvious idea, but I'm talking larger scale. Like GOAL and NES join a partnership with the Jimmy Fund to help raise $$ for the kids. Something that everyone will want to participate in and is nationally recognized. It could be FREE GAS auctions, becoming pro-active in the community is the first step, second is showing people that your not just a gun-owner, your an American who exercises your rights. Like those I VOTE pins people wear makes people garner respect that your doing the right thing by voting. We need to make people realize that we're doing the right thing by owning firearms. Spare me the "it won't work" propaganda because that ideology is why our cause hasn't gained any traction. You miss 100% of the shots you dont take

 

[calsdad]

Some sort of community service or fundraiser thing would be a good first step. Like you said - having it be large scale would go over much better than having just 5 people show up.

If a few hundred people showed up that would really be making a statement.

 

[Fsorrent]

Perhaps this idea should be moved to it's own thread. I believe the collective wisedom of many will help get this idea off its feet.

Any ideas on a catchy thread-topic that will get people to click?

 

[Nickle]

Volunteerism is an excellent way to do it, and it needs to be something that will catch attention.

My best suggestion for success is to start with a couple of smaller projects, cleaning a specific park or something, then moving on to larger items.

Charity walks fall right in there with cleaning up a park.

The T-Shirt idea? Spot on, do it.

Now, all that remains is to start a thread and get organized.

Derek may be willing to create an area for activism, which is exactly what this is.

 

[clinotus]

Perhaps this idea should be moved to it's own thread. I believe the collective wisedom of many will help get this idea off its feet.

Any ideas on a catchy thread-topic that will get people to click?

I tried to get something like this off the ground earlier with GOAL but I think they were to busy at the time. I'm still willing, so count me in.

 

[pmb44]

This is the truth and is the way that we really can preserve our rights. I tried to do my part this morning guys, a heated discussion with a woman who wants the U.S. to turn into socialists like Europe. For two hours I blew her away in logical debate and the others who were around took my side by a landslide but she still didn't budge at all. I tried.

The sad part is she probably thinks she won the argument and the only reason no one agreed with her is cause your all to ignorant to figure out how smart she is.

 

[MetalgodZ]

Linda Hamilton

Didn't know anything about this (apparently no media coverage? ) so a quick Google search revealed this.......

 

[BOBKATT]

The sad part is she probably thinks she won the argument and the only reason no one agreed with her is cause your all to ignorant to figure out how smart she is.

Hit the nail on the head.

 

[theGringo]

Didn't know anything about this (apparently no media coverage? ) so a quick Google search revealed this.......

I posted that link earlier in these pages, in a thread in which it was asked if anyone remembered the outcome of some vague matter of some vague person who got into trouble in North County.

Thank you for caring enough to Google it up, and a rep point coming your way for caring.

There was adequate press coverage in western Mass. I think. And it was covered statewide, although maybe not aggressively. But I was living out of state when this went down and I was late in getting word of the details. The case was over and in appeal before I heard of it.

I believe that GOAL had provided some coverage of the story, and that funds for assistance with legal defense were requested in the Outdoor Message. Correct me if I'm wrong. I recall that the response to Linda Hamilton's requests for help was poor.

To all those about to engage in various acts of armed goodwill in order to win converts to the RKBA cause .... good luck. But I think the Woodsy Owl clean up campaign is unlikely to turn the tide of popular opinion, or even influence opinion beyond the local area. I'm all for showing the flag, and no harm is ever done by being visible in the community in a positive way, but this is unlikely to score major points or turn public opinion in the long run.

You can get the people out in the street, but there'll be no fawning reporters or photographers to broadcast your good works to the peoples.

I keep thinking about how the Boy Scouts are being run out of public places and denied funding through public channels. Try hooking up with a major charitable foundation, and see how far your message goes. The liberal institutions that dominate charitable giving will not fund a pro-gun message.

I'm no wild eyed pistol waver, but I hold out little hope for freedom in the United States in the long term. I have long thought that a secessionist movement is what is needed, and I thought at one time that this would emerge as a Constitutionalist movement in the Pacific Northwest. Ain't happinin'.

I watched the growth of the Free State Project with hope, but that seems to have come to little more than an annual cookout in New Hampshire sponsored by a few Ron Paul supporters and sundry Libertarian flakes. The puppet show protest was about as high a point as that bunch is likely to reach; the zenith of the FSP trajectory.

The FSP never could seem to decide on a common purpose or philosophy, and the state government is now peopled by Democrats who are willing to provide abortion to minors without parental notification, and other nasty things. Good job, guys.

This thread has gone from "Fight the Power" to "Pick up Litter" in just a dozen or so pages. Sheesh.

Hoo boy ... Now I'm just getting myself depressed. [sad2]

 

[squirt]

To theGringo:

You suggest that doing any sort of community work will not do anything, please point me to the historical data showing this. As with anything it will take time, it may take alot of time but it will not be fruitless. We have to try asap to convert more and more citizens of this state, which in turn will help elect politicians that GET IT.

 

[BRR]

I recently returned from a mission trip from Sri Lanka - a country where guns are outlawed. When the sumani hit years ago my wife was in Haiti and there was a military group working for the UN Peace Keepers in Haiti that were from Sri Lanka and they had no contact or idea what happened to their loved ones back home. The Lt. Col. in charge saw my wife working with the children and invited her to the UN Compound. It had been over a year since a civilian had gone past the gates. After returning home she sent him her laptop so he could go to the local mission and try to contact his family. These men went weeks with no contact with home. When his term in Haiti was about to end he flew to the USA for the first time and after going to the UN in NYC he spent a couple days in MA. At dinner one night he asked us to please go to his country because the streets were full of orphans. I opened my safe to him and he was like a kid. He told me that he was issued a Browning 9 MM as his sidearm ,but could not take it home wih him. He had to sign it in and out daily. While being in Sri Lanka we were with military almost constantly. At times we would pull over and they would change their uniforms and the number plates on the vehicle and continue down the road. After doing this a few times my wife said " Col. we must be in a dangerous area " he stated "There is no true safe place in Sri Lanka Madam " It truly made me appreciate this great country we live in. They could change their uniforms and plates all they wanted, but I was still 6 feet tall and white. We came to an intersection and I looked out the window and happened to spot a man in a bunker and all you could see was head and shoulders and an AK47. My reply to the driver was " Please move on". The terrorist in this country do whatever they want when they enter a village usually hurting the children so they can control the adults. If you do wrong to my wife or daughters you will have my undivided attention. The average income in SL is $1000.00 - $1200.00 annually with a used pentium 3 w/ a 30 gb Hd going for $2000.00 US dollars.I have tried mailing things back to them and the gov. will not allow it or they tax it more than it's value. Now that I am home I have since talked with as many anti-gun people I have met and tried to share with them that not all gun owners have a " WHEN DEADS NOT GOOD ENOUGH " mentality. I think it's very important that we do what we can to get specially young people to persue getting their LTC and see that after pulling the trigger you can't just hit reset like you can in video games. I feel that if we can get people to think for themselves and not just let Big Brother do all the thinking for them that most people will agree with what this country was founded on from the beginning. By the way I've been an associate pastor since 1985 and own 9 glocks and 2 Sigs and love it.

 

[clinotus]

If you do wrong to my wife or daughters you will have my undivided attention.

Very nice post and it puts everything in perspective for those of us that forget about it every once in a while. I picked that part of it though in my quote to you because you put into sentiment something I've felt for many years.

 

[BRR]

Thanks for your comment Clinotus. To set the record straight, I love my sons also, but I feel I need to make sure they know how to take care of their wifes and family. I always told my boys that there are 3 things Dad needs to teach you. Always respect and fear God , Always have good work ethic , And learn not to spit in the wind, think first. If they can learn those 3 things I will never have to worry about them taking care and providing for their families.