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Picket line

Path-Finder said:
Wrong again. I was in management for 4 years there. Did very well at it. So well in fact that they asked me what i wanted to do with my career and I told them I wanted to be driver for the company and go back into the union which VERY rarely happens. I could see the writing on the wall. They way they treat management was and is horrible. Now new management have no pension, pay out the ass for health insurance. To top it off grandfathered management employees were just told sorry but we're not contributing to your pensions anymore. So no I would not perish.
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Stop channeling Archie Bunker.

You did not describe a "real world" business environment. It's a very different place...
 
new guy said:
Would it exist without government protection? Honest question - I don’t know.
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It should. There shouldn't be any regulation preventing people from organizing the same as their should be less regulation on businesses. I don't take it personally when my company tries to cut our pay or health insurance. They shouldn't take it personally when I file a grievance or we go on strike. It's just business.
 
Path-Finder said:
It should. There shouldn't be any regulation preventing people from organizing the same as their should be less regulation on businesses. I don't take it personally when my company tries to cut our pay or health insurance. They shouldn't take it personally when I file a grievance or we go on strike. It's just business.
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As it stands federal law goes a long way to protecting labor unions under the NLRA.
 
drgrant said:
Obviously not every union is terrible.....
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i have limited union experience, only the last 10 years on my last job before I retired. I found it was the top 5 elected officers in our local that were the ass wipes. they definitely made things interesting. I understand their antics caused 2 other locals to bring it to the internationals attention. I wasn't involved in union politics, i heard 2nd hand, the international wanted our local to fold our charter and incorporate into another local. that did not happen.
 
i never understood the mentality that pairs "i refuse to do this job under ____ circumstances" with "If you're WILLING to, then I'm going to get violent with you." And i never understood how conservatives are pro union.

Your job is an agreement between your employer and you. If you don't like the terms, find another employer. Unions pay artificially inflated labor rates to people using political power and usually theft via taxation to function, subdividing labor to such an inefficient minutia that its laughable.

no issue with people banding together to demand - and get - whatever they want from their employer. No issue with striking. But when they use the state to protect them and violence against people who are happy to do their jobs for less compensation, then its just thug rule. Would you go to a car dealership and say 'im not paying more than 10k for this car' and then beat up the next guy who comes along cause hel pay 11? Same thing in my book. You've been compensated for the years youve put in. Thats what a paycheck is. You arent owed more unless agreed upon in the initial terms of your employment.

So yea. if i was willing to a job for less money than the union was demanding, why not? Just my humble opinion.
 
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ccioff said:
i never understood the mentality that pairs "i refuse to do this job under ____ circumstances" with "If you're WILLING to, then I'm going to get violent with you." And i never understood how conservatives are pro union.

Your job is an agreement between your employer and you. If you don't like the terms, find another employer. Unions pay artificially inflated labor rates to people using political power and usually theft via taxation to function, subdividing labor to such an inefficient minutia that its laughable.

no issue with people banding together to demand - and get - whatever they want from their employer. No issue with striking. But when they use the state to protect them and violence against people who are happy to do their jobs for less compensation, then its just thug rule. Would you go to a car dealership and say 'im not paying more than 10k for this car' and then beat up the next guy who comes along cause hel pay 11? Same thing in my book. You've been compensated for the years youve put in. Thats what a paycheck is. You arent owed more unless agreed upon in the terms of your employment.

So yea. if i was willing to a job for less money than the union was demanding, why not? Just my humble opinion.
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Not all employers are the same though. My company and my union have a contract that we all have to abide by. By and large the one who breaks the contract the most is the company. For 8 years now I have watched the company work non union employees DAILY no matter how many grievances are filed. Oh and you worked here for thirty years and hurt your back go F yourself we are denying your claim. But thanks for coming to work everyday.
 
Path-Finder said:
Not all employers are the same though. My company and my union have a contract that we all have to abide by. By and large the one who breaks the contract the most is the company. For 8 years now I have watched the company work non union employees DAILY no matter how many grievances are filed. Oh and you worked here for thirty years and hurt your back go F yourself we are denying your claim. But thanks for coming to work everyday.
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Understood. If the company breaks the terms of a contract, then absolutely they should be forced, by law, to do what they promised. Not saying they should get off scot free. Also I think that if you are given disability insurance as a term of your employment to begin with, then you should be compensated if you are injured. Though, nobody forces anyone to take a job where risk is present. I work as a non union machinist and disability is not part of my employment terms. If i mangle my hand in a bridgeport, its my own fault and I either get private insurance or figure shit out on my own. I chose to do this work. I dunno. I see your point, but My whole point here is that violence against others cause they want to do a job you dont is never ok, and people (including employers) should honor what is agreed upon in writing as the terms of employment, and usually that's not the sense i get of whats going on between unions and employers.
 
Path-Finder said:
Not all employers are the same though. My company and my union have a contract that we all have to abide by. By and large the one who breaks the contract the most is the company. For 8 years now I have watched the company work non union employees DAILY no matter how many grievances are filed. Oh and you worked here for thirty years and hurt your back go F yourself we are denying your claim. But thanks for coming to work everyday.
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You've got a lot to learn about business.

"For 8 years now I have watched the company work non union employees DAILY no matter how many grievances are filed. "

It's called the free market and capitalism. And the free market has determined that the positions can be filled for less expensive labor. So it's no surprise the company starts leveraging contractors in lieu of union labor. In most unionized shops, that is what happens. The union pushes too far and the company responds by placing a hiring freeze on full-time unionized positions and staffs with contractors. Because the market for the talent/labor to fill that position allows them to do so. People are willing to take the job at the rate the company is willing to pay. This is especially true with low skill positions.

"you worked here for thirty years and hurt your back go F yourself we are denying your claim."

Workers compensation "claims" aren't approved or denied by the company. That's on the company's insurer. That's true no matter where you work, union or not.
 
ThePreBanMan said:
You've got a lot to learn about business.

"For 8 years now I have watched the company work non union employees DAILY no matter how many grievances are filed. "

It's called the free market and capitalism. And the free market has determined that the positions can be filled for less expensive labor. So it's no surprise the company starts leveraging contractors in lieu of union labor. In most unionized shops, that is what happens. The union pushes too far and the company responds by placing a hiring freeze on full-time unionized positions and staffs with contractors. Because the market for the talent/labor to fill that position allows them to do so. People are willing to take the job at the rate the company is willing to pay. This is especially true with low skill positions.

"you worked here for thirty years and hurt your back go F yourself we are denying your claim."

Workers compensation "claims" aren't approved or denied by the company. That's on the company's insurer. That's true no matter where you work, union or not.
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Your wrong on both counts. The company agrees to a contract that they will not work non-union employees but they do all the time it's not the free market. If you agree to a contract and sign it you have to abide by that contract. You're the one that helped to set the rules. Don't go back on it just because it doesn't fit your business model all of a sudden. And a workers comp claim can get denied by the management team there if they feel that it's not valid. Yes it's on the insurance company to deny a claim after it's been filed but the companyhas been known to instruct doctors in the past that work with them to give treatment options based on what they deem suitable. Or using harassment and intimidation of the employee for attempting to file a claim. I know this because for a couple years I was the guy doing the intimidation and denying the claims.
 
Path-Finder said:
Your wrong on both counts. The company agrees to a contract that they will not work non-union employees but they do all the time it's not the free market. If you agree to a contract and sign it you have to abide by that contract. You're the one that helped to set the rules. Don't go back on it just because it doesn't fit your business model all of a sudden.
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No disagreement there. the company should be free to hire union or non union workers unless they agree contractually that they wont. If they agree to not, then do, then yea. They should be taken to court or people should strike. Why didnt they if it happened so much? (genuine curiosity question)


Path-Finder said:
And a workers comp claim can get denied by the management team there if they feel that it's not valid. Yes it's on the insurance company to deny a claim after it's been filed but the companyhas been known to instruct doctors in the past that work with them to give treatment options based on what they deem suitable. Or using harassment and intimidation of the employee for attempting to file a claim. I know this because for a couple years I was the guy doing the intimidation and denying the claims.
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Right, wouldnt you rather pick your own insurer and be able to deal with them directly? Wouldnt you rather be able to punish them for shitty service and bullshit denial of claims by deciding not to give them your hard earned cash anymore and go with someone else? The free markets have mechanisms to ensure that that doesnt happen. When a company's customers aren't free to go somewhere else, theyre more likely to take advantage of that/them, and we, the consumer, are boned. Cause like. who cares? what are they gonna do, find another company? cant! Doesn't that defeat the purpose of unions? Unions don't let you decide because those decisions are centralized to the union leadership.
 
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ccioff said:
No disagreement there. the company should be free to hire union or non union workers unless they agree contractually that they wont. If they agree to not, then do, then yea. They should be taken to court or people should strike. Why didnt they if it happened so much? (genuine curiosity question)




Right, wouldnt you rather pick your own insurer and be able to deal with them directly? Wouldnt you rather be able to punish them for shitty service and bullshit denial of claims by deciding not to give them your hard earned cash anymore and go with someone else? The free markets have mechanisms to ensure that that doesnt happen. When a company's customers aren't free to go somewhere else, theyre more likely to take advantage of that/them, and we, the consumer, are boned. Cause like. who cares? what are they gonna do, find another company? cant! Doesn't that defeat the purpose of unions? Unions don't let you decide because those decisions are centralized to the union leadership.
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Contractually you have to use their insurance for a comp claim. Even if you use your own doctor the company has a right to a second opinion and amend the note.
 
namedpipes said:
Sounds like your Union didn't do their job. There must be a Union of Union Managers. [rofl]
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That's how contracts work they get something we get something. The gun to the companies head is the strike. Shareholders don't want the money stream to stop. It wasn't like that before it went public.
 
Path-Finder said:
That's how contracts work they get something we get something. The gun to the companies head is the strike. Shareholders don't want the money stream to stop. It wasn't like that before it went public.
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I wasn't talking about the striking. I meant you ceded access to your medical records to the company. If your doc finds that your heart attack was brought on by stress caused by your job they can alter that to show it was caused by too many corn dogs.

Unions had a place in our history. They helped correct a lot of injustices, especially in the manufacturing world. Now they've replaced the Evil Spectre of Management(TM) as the cause of problems...
 
namedpipes said:
I wasn't talking about the striking. I meant you ceded access to your medical records to the company. If your doc finds that your heart attack was brought on by stress caused by your job they can alter that to show it was caused by too many corn dogs.

Unions had a place in our history. They helped correct a lot of injustices, especially in the manufacturing world. Now they've replaced the Evil Spectre of Management(TM) as the cause of problems...
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In a comp claim that's how it works if they can prove it's pre existing then we have lawyers for that. It hardly ever gets to that level though.

I think you're pretty far off on the unions have no place anymore. And it's not really management but the corporate level that's the evil Spectre. How many people here bitch about big tech companies?
 
Path-Finder said:
Your wrong on both counts. The company agrees to a contract that they will not work non-union employees but they do all the time it's not the free market. If you agree to a contract and sign it you have to abide by that contract. You're the one that helped to set the rules. Don't go back on it just because it doesn't fit your business model all of a sudden. And a workers comp claim can get denied by the management team there if they feel that it's not valid. Yes it's on the insurance company to deny a claim after it's been filed but the companyhas been known to instruct doctors in the past that work with them to give treatment options based on what they deem suitable. Or using harassment and intimidation of the employee for attempting to file a claim. I know this because for a couple years I was the guy doing the intimidation and denying the claims.
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Contractors aren't employees. Companies can bring them on and let them go at any time of their choosing.

You pick the doctor you see and you pick the treatment if deemed necessary. Not the company. If you're not happy with the doc or the diagnosis you can change docs and see another one, you can ask for a referral to a specialist of your choosing... The company has no say in how you go about receiving your health care. The company has no influence over health care providers of your choosing. That's just some conspiracy theory tin foil hat BS right there. What the company can do is ask you have the doc fill out some paperwork about your condition. But that's the extent to which they can legally involve themselves in your care. They can not MAKE you receive treatment from a doc of THEIR choosing. That's downright illegal.

Why do you think it's so common in union shops for people to doctor shop? They just hop around until they find one to give them the diagnosis they want so they can bang out of work. Or do you just pretend that doesn't happen... LOL... comical... really... comical.

But feel free to come up with some more BS to justify your nor deflated arguments... It's quite amusing watching you flop around, talk yourself into a corner, knowing your wrong and trying to squirm your way into a sliver of a hope of being right about something...
 
ThePreBanMan said:
Contractors aren't employees. Companies can bring them on and let them go at any time of their choosing.

You pick the doctor you see and you pick the treatment if deemed necessary. Not the company. If you're not happy with the doc or the diagnosis you can change docs and see another one, you can ask for a referral to a specialist of your choosing... The company has no say in how you go about receiving your health care. The company has no influence over health care providers of your choosing. That's just some conspiracy theory tin foil hat BS right there. What the company can do is ask you have the doc fill out some paperwork about your condition. But that's the extent to which they can legally involve themselves in your care. They can not MAKE you receive treatment from a doc of THEIR choosing. That's downright illegal.

Why do you think it's so common in union shops for people to doctor shop? They just hop around until they find one to give them the diagnosis they want so they can bang out of work. Or do you just pretend that doesn't happen... LOL... comical... really... comical.

But feel free to come up with some more BS to justify your nor deflated arguments... It's quite amusing watching you flop around, talk yourself into a corner, knowing your wrong and trying to squirm your way into a sliver of a hope of being right about something...
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What's your problem bud? For someone who didn't want to waste their time talking sense into me you're pretty chatty. I'm sure you have so much experience working in a union shop that's why you know so much right? GTFOH.
After you work in a union job for 20 years you can tell me how it is until then STFU.
 
To answer the original question, maybe? As long as your disputes don't affect me, have at it. But as soon as you violate my rights or try to intimidate me into not going about my business as I desire, then we have a problem.
 
Path-Finder said:
What's your problem bud? For someone who didn't want to waste their time talking sense into me you're pretty chatty. I'm sure you have so much experience working in a union shop that's why you know so much right? GTFOH.
After you work in a union job for 20 years you can tell me how it is until then STFU.
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I've got plenty of time working in a union. I talk about it in a prior post on this very thread... I even identified the union and local chapter. So yea I do "have so much experience working in a union shop. That's why I know so much." So I've had a front row seat to all the union BS. I've seen every trick in the book and every stunt they pull. That's how I know you're full of shit too...

You can be entitled to your own opinion about unions. But you're not entitled to your own facts. The facts about unions, they speak for themselves.
 
PennyPincher said:
I'm thinking you know very little of me or you wouldn't be jumping to such conclusions. I have convictions. There are literally jobs in MA you CANNOT have if you DO NOT join the union. Nursing is one.
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Not true my daughter in law is a non union nurse at a local hospital.
 
firestorm said:
This is the problem, unions are not all the same and around here they get lumped somewhat. I am in a union, the Ironworkers. We get no paid vacations, pay our own medical, pay our own retirement, and are only paid hours we actually work. Holidays are unpaid unless we work on them, rain days, sick days etc. all unpaid. I can be fired or laid off at any time for any reason, there is no seniority (Only one that is pretty safe is the steward) and I'm expected to show up ready to work, on time. Lazy guys don't stay on jobs, people who can't hack it aren't protected, and if you screw up something you will likely be headed down the road that day with no meetings or other HR nonsense.

I get paid well for what I do, but I also am expected to do a good job. We have to get things done faster and generally better to make up for the fact that the companies have to pay us more and thus have to bid based on that. We don't have a single company that we are negotiating with, and thus it is far different from any of the single company unions. It is not exactly free market, but we also can't really dictate anything we want because it is a large number of companies being dealt with and if the bids go too high we won't get the work.

There are issues, especially with the money being paid straight into democrat coffers, and there are picket lines and some other sorts of things from time to time. But in the overall I have never been asked or seen anyone else be asked to damage or destroy anything, threaten anyone, or do anything other than some silly nonsense like walking in front of a truck that has stopped for the picket (But of course only one time because that is what's allowed). Those things are like was said earlier, it feels like a dumb play "Hey guys, we are making a difference by slowing them down" while everyone involved knows it's stupid.

I don't understand the arrogance of some in this thread with talk about holding a gun to the head of the company to demand things. We negotiate with companies, but we do it with a promise that the reason they are paying us is because we will make them money through good, fast work. I know the image of unions is not that, but I take pride in being a professional and doing the right thing to get the job done. We have an apprenticeship to make sure that the people we send out are well trained, and I am dumbfounded hearing about people who feel they are owed the job whether they can do it well or not.
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This is the only pro union opinion that I enjoyed reading. Kudos to you.
 

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