I had a conversation with a friend who worked at GM Framingham until they closed. I asked him what he did at the job, he told me "I install the wire that goes to the dome light" I asked him how much time he had to accomplish this task and how long it actually takes. On his line a car went by every two minutes and it took him between 20 & 25 seconds. I said so you stand around doing nothing for a minute and a half every 2 minutes? Yup and you know what they want me to do? I said no what is that. His reply was open both doors so the next guy could do his job in less time. I asked whats wrong with that and he said nothing but they have to compensate me for that work. I said George you're getting paid for an 8 hour shift now, why should they pay you any more? He replied I get paid to put in the wiring, if they want more work I should get paid more. For a company to have to deal with that mentality in its work force is beyond a non union employees imagination. I said to my friend well that is why all you hundreds of autoworkers just lost a dam good job you will never get back. Unions had their place but in todays market NO
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- Thread starter mjbff
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I don’t think I would cross one to work as a scab. Otherwise I ignore them and I look at labor unions with a very jaundiced eye.
My father in law just retired and his pension is with the New England Teamsters. Just hit the papers last week that their pension is $5 billion under funded and on its current trajectory will be out of money in 5 years.
Probably won’t be good for Teamsters union membership when they start cutting pensions.
My father in law just retired and his pension is with the New England Teamsters. Just hit the papers last week that their pension is $5 billion under funded and on its current trajectory will be out of money in 5 years.
Probably won’t be good for Teamsters union membership when they start cutting pensions.
namedpipes
NES Member
It's really no wonder the manufacturers started using robots.
usp45ct
NES Member
Unscrupulous business practices like holding a gun to the head of the company to get what you want or can’t get fired for lousy work? What business practices are more unscrupulous than that?
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You're right I didn't read your original post about this topic. It's all making more sense now why you're so bitter towards unions. I work with a guy currently who was at AT&T for 25 years in North Andover. He was there when Lucent was sold to Alcatel. That was a horrible union with filled with thugs. I also know they were famous for sandbagging to get less work like buzzing channel boxes slower etc. And if anybody ruined a job or crossed the picket line they would get their car keyed, sugar in the gas tank or even a blanket party where they would wrap a guy in a sheet and gang beat him for awhile. So yes there are definealty are bad unions that use criminal tactics to get what they want. But they arent all like that.
I've been at UPS for 20 years 16 of those as a teamster in local 25. None of that violence crap you mentioned would fly where I work. Neither would the endless sandbagging. By and large the people Ive seen working there come in and work hard for their money. There will always be people slacking off to get less work no matter where you go. And guess what, I see plenty of that in management also.
Not for nothing but it didn't sound like you were a model employee there either. Slacking off, banging in over the allocated days then kissing management's ass so you wouldn't get fired. No wonder the union didn't like you. I would't want you working for me with an attitude like that., so it's no wonder you were pulled into the office alot. You sounded like you were pretty lazy and conniving. You have to remember that management in a work place like that doesn't have your back when push comes to shove they will throw you under the bus because they have no recourse when something goes wrong, that's just how it goes.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with unions. But they aren't all bad. I get annoyed when I here people bashing unions with little to no experience with them. Just like I get annoyed when i hear people bash firearms or the 2nd amendment so my original post was meant to have some hyperbole in it to piss off the union bashers on here. What I've noticed is that people tend to just parrot things they've heard on the internet about unions. All I know is I make a lot of money, get great benefits and will have a pension when I retire hopefully. I have other investments to cover it if goes under. And if I do my job I will never get fired and I don't have to worry about some manager with a hair across his ass harrassing me. Alot of people these days don't get that. I've watched family members get repeatedly layed off and dicked with at other jobs and frankly I don't feel like dealing with that. I know that UPS would love to cut wages and benefits even though they make about 5 billion in profit every year. The union keeps them in check.
So it's not that I'm entitled to my own facts, it's just that my experience has just been different than yours.
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True. In a non union shop, that dude gets kicked off your team because he sucks. i wouldn't want a system protecting lazy coworkers of mine...
This is an appeal to authority argument. Just because you haven't worked in a union does not mean that your claims are immediately false. You don't need to have worked in a union to observe that its inefficient, expensive, and unethical. If my kid said "I dont wanna smoke crack" I'm not gonna say "well, if you've never done it, then how can you comment on it?" Economic and societal consequences of unions are observable to anyone, regardless of their work history. Is there valuable perspective from union workers and non-union workers?? for sure.
The 'not all unions are bad' argument to me sounds super reminiscent to 'real communism/socialism has never been tried' I'm sorry. But they're similar concepts in my book. The defense is always "when the right management is in place" or "if you do it right" similar to "when we elect the right leader" but it always goes bad.. Centralizing ownership/leadership SOUNDS good, then you realize it provides you what you were trying to avoid.
i mean.. good for you.. i don't blame you for trying to do whats right for you, but imho pensions are bullshit. You got a paycheck. to me this is me being stolen from to redistribute to someone else via inflated wages and pension payments. The idea of "i cant work anymore but i should still get paid" is insane to me. wtf am i saving and contributing to retirement accounts and stuff for? Similarly, a lot of union dudes i know resent their taxes going to pay for things they don't find valuable (assistance programs etc). Which i don't blame them for. To me, this is no different. No offense, but I don't wanna fund your, or anyone else's retirement. My wifes and mine are all I'm responsible for.
Not sure how his works, but I pay in a large amount for my pension and acting like a pension is some unearned benefit is not a great look. I'm paying something like $13 an hour into it and while it is sort of a ponzi scheme it isn't as if you are somehow paying for my retirement.
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UPS pays into the pension for every hour I work. But according to some people on here that is communism because they have to pay for shipping.
I’m not sure about Path-Finder’s UPS pension, but you don’t pay for mine. I do. They take 11% off the top of of my paycheck for my pension. It’s not “free” to me when I retire.
On the other hand, I spent several years paying into a public social security system that I’m now ineligible to receive benefits from. So don’t think you’re the only one pissing your money away to pay for someone else’s retirement.
Retirement is a MASSIVE shit sandwich. We’re all taking bites. I still think Path-Finder is a douche thanks to his first post, no matter how he’s backing out of it now, but I don’t blame him for benefiting from a pension his union bargained.
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I guess if i'm gonna be honest, I don't know the ins and outs of how union pensions work so I may have been commenting on something I don't know enough about to comment. If you pay into something, you should indeed be getting paid out of it. But like you said, other similar systems (i.e. social security) become schemes essentially without question, so my issue becomes when taxpayer money is involved. I have no reason to think that its not embroiled in the same bureaucratic garbage that is costly and unscrupulous, and until market forces set rates for labor instead of unions, that's just how ill see it.
not tryna beat a dead horse. I'm not saying that union laborers themselves are horrible some of my best friends are union laborers, I just find the system to be inefficient and riddled with corruption. All my respect to everyone going to work every day and doing as hard as they can to be productive both union and non union. End of the day everyone is just tryna feed their families.
not tryna beat a dead horse. I'm not saying that union laborers themselves are horrible some of my best friends are union laborers, I just find the system to be inefficient and riddled with corruption. All my respect to everyone going to work every day and doing as hard as they can to be productive both union and non union. End of the day everyone is just tryna feed their families.
not new guy
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The pensions aren’t the communist part of unions, it’s a lot of the rest of the arrangement that is.
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Which part exactly? I pay into my own health insurance, annuity (401k basically), and pension. Sure they take something like 17 cents an hour for political crap I don't agree with, which is unfortunate but no different than any company lobbying for democrats.
not new guy
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I mean more generally - nothing to do with the retirement aspect of it. The collective worker thing, battling the evil company and its greedy capitalist bosses. The notion that tenure and various non-merit based criteria determine who works. The lack of incentive for workers to go above and beyond in their work. The tactics. The politics. The history.
Oh, Ok you are generalizing. I have made it clear that in my trade specifically and the building trades in general those things for the most part are not true. The politics are an issue, but the rest is nonsense.
caboose84
NES Member
If some union run pension funds are as underfunded and mismanaged as some corporations plans (and frankly *all* government funded plans are)- I'm sure there will be no push to get a tax payer funded bailout.... /sarc
Some are in bad shape, none get bailouts. Several Ironworker locals have had issues and what happens is the government comes in and slashes the benefits for everyone who is already receiving payouts and everyone who is paying in loses the same way but also has to pay in more to keep the lower payments so that the fund can become solvent.
caboose84
NES Member
Sucks for the guys in those locals. Suppose since it’s only a few locals then combined they didn’t have the political pull to get a bailout rigged up.
One of the issues with the GM bailout was the UAW members were made whole while everyone else took a haircut- purely a political play and wrong IMO.
xtry51
NES Member
Would and have crossed. If they aren't willing to work for what the employer wants doing what the employer wants f*** them. People in Unions are the cowards that won't stand up for themselves and the same people who think government should tell you how to live. I would never work for a union or at a company that allowed union.
not new guy
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Payroll gets taken care of. Pensions aren't very common these days outside of union circles.
That UPS contract was ratified because for a 'no' vote to take effect,a majority of members must vote. Cant remember the exact percentage,but it was under 50% of members that voted.
What if you get in a couple of Tier 3 accidents,would you still not get fired ?
Also,look into the Teamster pension,they are worse off than SS system due to years of corruption and theft.
Really want a good laugh,look up the "GM jobs bank".
my dad was an IBEW for almost 30 years...he ended up in the hospital just before a strike....i was a kid but i knew when my mom was stressed because she was never stressed...that was a weird time...if i am not in your union i would cross the line...the beef is with yoir union and somebody else...sorry
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Depends on the situation. I've seen a guy who was a good driver have a couple accidents that they didn't even report not get fired. But his record over his career was good. I know that if you get written up repeatedly over a 9 month period for the same thing you'll be gone. But it does take a lot.
As far as the pension I believe it's in trouble more in the central states than around here. It doesn't help that UPS continues to work non union employees. When they do money isn't going into the pension. Anyway if it's not there when I retire I have other Investments. It would be foolish to leave all your eggs in one basket for retirement.
Do you work there? I noticed you said tier 3.
Central states is the dumpster fire of all dumpster fires (I think the number was $22 billion under funded) but New England Teamsters is $5 billion under funded. There isn’t enough $ to sort this out without haircuts.
The leadership of that union should be in prison.
The leadership of that union should be in prison.
MachineHead
NES Member
If you must cross Union Lines, you best have a plan... Then CHARGE!
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