Our Westgate is coming.

[calsdad]

That's really just restating 1) organizing such an attack is harder than it looks. Part of organizing such an attack is finding homicidal maniacs willing to die for your cause.

It's also dealing with the repercussions. 9/11 was different because they essentially just came into the country to carry out the attack. I think it would be hard to get a Beslan type attack here because they would first have to have a base of support within a community in order to plan and support that type of attack. Once the attack was carried out - that community would be subject to repercussions. It's not like there's a Muslim country just over the border anywhere in the US that they could run to. If it was found out that say some mosque was the center of operations - it's probably an even bet that that mosque and the community it supports would be subject to all sorts of nasty attacks.

It doesn't happen very often - but people still get tied behind pickup trucks and dragged til they're dead and their body parts are flying off here in the US - doing a Beslan and killing a couple hundred school kids would make people go apeshit.

If you're a Muslim in the US - and have been here for say 15 years - you've got to know a good part of the country would use a school attack to start going after you. And it's also well known worldwide that the US is full of guns - and liberals constantly tout the US as the murder leader of the world - so the "other side" HAS to know there would be repercussions to any sort of school type attack.

 

[Mr. Gold]

Making the rounds via email:

3) We only focus on security when people are heading to the gates. In Israel , security checks bags BEFORE people can even ENTER the airport.

Aviv says all of the above is well known in intelligence circles, but that our U. S. Government does not want to 'alarm American citizens' with the facts.

That's true, Ben Gurion Airport (AKA "TLV") has ex-military young men employed by the government, in a checkpoint ~ 1 mile before entering the terminal, armed with M-16, inspecting every entering vehicle. They do visual profiling, (yes, naughty word in the P-C world). And pull a car over if it does not seem alright to them.
Also, it is not allowed to organize a school field trip without at least one adult accompanying the trip as an armed person. If none of the parents which are willing to join have a pistol carry license, they sign off a carbine from the local PD for the duration of the trip.

 

[calsdad]

We don't want State Police or local police in a position of having to deal with something like this. First, that isn't their job. Most of them are just regular folk like you and I, husbands and wives who would just like to go home at the end of every shift. They're not Marines, or Army, not trained or equipped to deal with the scenario depicted here. Nor should they be.


Quite to the contrary. That is exactly who will have to deal with something like this. They will respond and will run to the sound of gunfire / an active shooter. Homicide in progress. They would prefer to go home at the end of the shift like anyone else. If the local mall comes under attack it IS the police that will be responding with the tools they have at their disposal.

It's highly likely they will sit outside in the parking lot - just like they've done in numerous other active shooter incidents. "Running to the sound of the gunfire" doesn't describe what has happened before.

- - - Updated - - -

Only if it fits their needs. Didn't law enforcement run to a local gun shop during a shootout in California looking for a rifle because the perps had body armor....anyone recall this

Yes that is what they did - it was because they weren't equipped with rifles in their squad cars.

 

[GlockJock]

I'm not even concerned about al-queda or whoever going after a mall, etc. Yeah they can do that but that'll be off the news cycle in a few months and the memetic effect will be diminished. Most american malls have lots of points of egress and unless they have a ton of shooters, their body count is going to be limited and its going to be mostly adults. Not to mention, shopping malls are slowly dying anyways. Instead, it's all about the public schools. Schools are big ****ing deathtraps, they're like prisons without the security, and they're filled with targets that have an extremely high memetic value in the american public conscience. If the durkas hit even one school in the US we'll have to listen to ****ing "save the orphans, wah wah wah wah" on infinite loop for 10 years, and deal with all the EMO-inspired legislation and other bullshit that will come as a fallout of it, which will probably infect 2 generations of people with bullshit, and rob even more freedom from citizens.
I don't even really fear the durkas actually (there's pretty much a static limit to how much physical damage they can actually do); I fear the way our legislators and government will react, in their typical full retard, knee jerk fashion, if the durkas can pull off killing a bunch of children at once.
-Mike

This.
Like I've said, I'm not concerned so much with ISIS and other sh*t like that. But I am concerned they'll blow up a school bus and the Pelosis/Hilarys/Obamas etc will pressure the Coakleys and Healeys into "action", and that "action" usually involves limiting me to a 5 round mag in my musket, do not renew any LTC without restrictions, or God knows what other New York style restriction they would try to put on me, the "NRA member/problem" that I am ....While they allow more scumbag undocumenteds to walk free of charges of rape/aggravated assault etc etc etc...
I think I'll be home invaded by Carlos, Juan and a parolee to be named later before I'll see Mohamed Al-Effed-Upee at my door.....

Just sayin'....

 

[drgrant]

This.
Like I've said, I'm not concerned so much with ISIS and other sh*t like that. But I am concerned they'll blow up a school bus and the Pelosis/Hilarys/Obamas etc will pressure the Coakleys and Healeys into "action", and that "action" usually involves limiting me to a 5 round mag in my musket, do not renew any LTC without restrictions, or God knows what other New York style restriction they would try to put on me, the "NRA member/problem" that I am ....While they allow more scumbag undocumenteds to walk free of charges of rape/aggravated assault etc etc etc...
I think I'll be home invaded by Carlos, Juan and a parolee to be named later before I'll see Mohamed Al-Effed-Upee at my door.....

Just sayin'....

My concerns go way beyond gun rights. The stuff I am most concerned about is things that change the fundamental fabric of our existence, like changes to due process and the 4th amendment, among other things. Things like "Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Suspicion" give way to "someone thinks you're an odd duck, and need investigating, even though we have no valid reason". We're already seeing bits and pieces of that kind of bullshit now, but if we had an attack as described, I think that stuff would ultimately go full retard. Things like the surveillance state would become a norm instead of just "something you only see in big dump cities" etc. Another multi-billion dollar wave of taxpayer money would be wasted on .gov "security" programs which have the effect of oppressing citizens systematically under the guise of "It's for the chillllldren."

-Mike

 

[cekim]

My concerns go way beyond gun rights. The stuff I am most concerned about is things that change the fundamental fabric of our existence, like changes to due process and the 4th amendment, among other things. Things like "Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Suspicion" give way to "someone thinks you're an odd duck, and need investigating, even though we have no valid reason". We're already seeing bits and pieces of that kind of bullshit now, but if we had an attack as described, I think that stuff would ultimately go full retard. Things like the surveillance state would become a norm instead of just "something you only see in big dump cities" etc. Another multi-billion dollar wave of taxpayer money would be wasted on .gov "security" programs which have the effect of oppressing citizens systematically under the guise of "It's for the chillllldren."

-Mike

It is scary how far past the line every western nation has gone, but places in Europe have literally implemented 1984 and no one has so much as made a sour bleat in earnest over there.

Joking about it isn't going to cut it and we have to address the same issues here politically while/if we still can.

 

[Quiet]

My concerns go way beyond gun rights. The stuff I am most concerned about is things that change the fundamental fabric of our existence, like changes to due process and the 4th amendment, among other things. Things like "Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Suspicion" give way to "someone thinks you're an odd duck, and need investigating, even though we have no valid reason". We're already seeing bits and pieces of that kind of bullshit now, but if we had an attack as described, I think that stuff would ultimately go full retard. Things like the surveillance state would become a norm instead of just "something you only see in big dump cities" etc. Another multi-billion dollar wave of taxpayer money would be wasted on .gov "security" programs which have the effect of oppressing citizens systematically under the guise of "It's for the chillllldren."

Including creating the culture of turning everyone into KGB spies watching their neighbors, reporting suspicious behavior to the police. Creating fear among the people of their own government preventing them from speaking their mind against the actions of their government.

I can't begin to tell you how many people have contacted me on facebook and through direct means advising me not to attract so much attention, stop talking about the militarization of police, etc., etc.

 

[Rider]

I can't begin to tell you how many people have contacted me on facebook and through direct means advising me not to attract so much attention, stop talking about the militarization of police, etc., etc.

It's kind of funny that what makes for a great storyline in a movie isn't ok to talk about in polite society. Hunger Games, Divergent, and The Giver are all young adult focused stories where the government controls everything and even talking about it is punishable. Yet...

It should give us some hope. If young people today are reading/watching this stuff, they can't all be sheep.

 

[King1065]

It's highly likely they will sit outside in the parking lot - just like they've done in numerous other active shooter incidents. "Running to the sound of the gunfire" doesn't describe what has happened before.


Respectfully, no.

Prior to Columbine, conventional wisdom may have been arrive and secure the perimeter until SWAT arrives. That was protocol prior to Columbine in 1999. Different departments have their own SOP. The training now is if there is an active shooter, form a team of the first arriving officers and move to the threat. Stop and/or contain the homicide in progress.

 

[M1911]

Prior to Columbine, conventional wisdom may have been arrive and secure the perimeter until SWAT arrives. That was protocol prior to Columbine in 1999. Different departments have their own SOP. The training now is if there is an active shooter, form a team of the first arriving officers and move to the threat. Stop and/or contain the homicide in progress.

What the training is, and what might actually happen in the real world, may well be two different things.

A buddy of mine is a supervisor in a big city police department. Not long ago, he was on shift when a call came over the radio of an active shooter. He got on the radio telling officers that the first two officers to arrive on scene must buddy up, enter the building, and move towards the shooter. He was simply reinforcing their training, since they have had active shooter training.

But when he arrived at the building a few minutes later, there were half a dozen officers milling around outside and no one had gone in. He grabbed two officers closest to him, said "come with me", and entered the building. It turned out to be a false alarm. But if it had been real, people would have been dying while those officers stood around outside.

If you expect police to save you in such an incident, you are sadly mistaken.

You are on your own.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

If you think you are going to be more than a speed bump in a Westgate type DARPing scenario... I hope you do more than shooting behind barrels at 21'

Here's the BEST case scenario for a citizen in this situation. You are a rodeo clown. You pop a couple rounds off in their direction to **** up their OODA loop. Then you run. MAYBE you do it again from another angle. Anything more than that is roflcopter fantasies. If you John McLane that shit, you're either dead by good guys or bad guys... or both.

 

[warwickben]

If you think about it most people carry one extra mag maybe two.
Take a glock 17 That's 30-45 rds.
A attack by a group of guys with rifles your gonna need a lot more rounds.

 

[GlockJock]

It is scary how far past the line every western nation has gone, but places in Europe have literally implemented 1984 and no one has so much as made a sour bleat in earnest over there. Joking about it isn't going to cut it and we have to address the same issues here politically while/if we still can.

But remember, a lot of us "joke" about it or "go sarcastic" about stuff becuase it's often the only way to stay sane and not get completely enraged at the way the entire nation circles the drain, y'know?
When I first joined NES I actually thought "Wow, the people on this forum are real President-despising-doomsayers, really negative, rife with feelings of hopelessness, rage at the .gov, despair etc.....

18 months later and now I'm a real President-despising-doomsayer, really negative, rife with feelings of hopelessness, rage at the .gov, despair etc.... Joining this forum has REALLY made me open my eyes and see what's REALLY going on in this country!!

 

[PaulD]

My concerns go way beyond gun rights. The stuff I am most concerned about is things that change the fundamental fabric of our existence, like changes to due process and the 4th amendment, among other things. Things like "Probable Cause" and "Reasonable Suspicion" give way to "someone thinks you're an odd duck, and need investigating, even though we have no valid reason". We're already seeing bits and pieces of that kind of bullshit now, but if we had an attack as described, I think that stuff would ultimately go full retard. Things like the surveillance state would become a norm instead of just "something you only see in big dump cities" etc. Another multi-billion dollar wave of taxpayer money would be wasted on .gov "security" programs which have the effect of oppressing citizens systematically under the guise of "It's for the chillllldren."

-Mike

I completely agree, though I tend to think 2A rights are the bellwether for the rest of what you talk about. In fact, it would do our cause good to tie it all together as much as possible.

 

[mikem317]

...

If you expect police to save you in such an incident, you are sadly mistaken.

You are on your own.

Great post - but you're always on your own. I know I'm preaching to the choir on this but the state has zero obligation to come to your individual defense. They merely protect some defined collective.

If you think about it most people carry one extra mag maybe two.
Take a glock 17 That's 30-45 rds.
A attack by a group of guys with rifles your gonna need a lot more rounds.

The point is to egress/evade the attack. Not to terminate it. One loaded mag and two spare mags would probably be sufficient, IMHO. At the same time, I think in the next five to ten years, it will be increasingly commonplace for gun-owning civilians to be carrying AR-15s in the back of their trunks at all times.

 

[M1911]

If you think about it most people carry one extra mag maybe two.
Take a glock 17 That's 30-45 rds.
A attack by a group of guys with rifles your gonna need a lot more rounds.

No you won't. If you are attacked by a group of guys with rifles, you'll be dead before you finish your first mag.

Multiple guys vs. one guy? Bad juju.

Guy with a rifle vs. guy with a pistol? Bad juju.

Multiple guys with rifles vs. one guy with a pistol? He's dead, Jim.

 

[warwickben]

No you won't. If you are attacked by a group of guys with rifles, you'll be dead before you finish your first mag.

That's what I was getting at lol . Best be is to get out of dodge . Your not gonna be due hard.

 

[drgrant]

No you won't. If you are attacked by a group of guys with rifles, you'll be dead before you finish your first mag.

Multiple guys vs. one guy? Bad juju.

Guy with a rifle vs. guy with a pistol? Bad juju.

Multiple guys with rifles vs. one guy with a pistol? He's dead, Jim.

Don't forget the fun that happens if they bring grenades like they did in Mumbai.

A best case scenario for someone with only a pistol is getting lucky and killing one of the bastards in the process of escaping said mall or whatever it is. Anything more than that is pretty much pure crack smoking territory.

-Mike

 

[Quiet]

Don't forget the fun that happens if they bring grenades like they did in Mumbai.

A best case scenario for someone with only a pistol is getting lucky and killing one of the bastards in the process of escaping said mall or whatever it is. Anything more than that is pretty much pure crack smoking territory.

-Mike

A couple of guys with pistols might fare better. Assuming they're in better shape than I am in.

 

[PaulD]

No you won't. If you are attacked by a group of guys with rifles, you'll be dead before you finish your first mag.

Multiple guys vs. one guy? Bad juju.

Guy with a rifle vs. guy with a pistol? Bad juju.

Multiple guys with rifles vs. one guy with a pistol? He's dead, Jim.

If I'm ever at a mall and hear gun shots, I'm ducking into the closest store and heading to the back. They all have doors there for bringing in stock.

 

[cekim]

If I'm ever at a mall and hear gun shots, I'm ducking into the closest store and heading to the back. They all have doors there for bringing in stock.

I am going to march right to the customer service booth and lodge a complaint.

That's what the NYTimes would do.

 

[drgrant]

Prior to Columbine, conventional wisdom may have been arrive and secure the perimeter until SWAT arrives. That was protocol prior to Columbine in 1999. Different departments have their own SOP. The training now is if there is an active shooter, form a team of the first arriving officers and move to the threat. Stop and/or contain the homicide in progress.

They still pretty much do that... and none of this matters anyways, because most of the damage will have been done by the time the cops show up, unless by some miracle they happen to be there already. It is uncommonly rare where you hear of a mass shooting that was interrupted "mid stream" by police officers. The reality is by the time the cops show up most of the causalities will already have occurred, unless its a weird standoff/hostage type of situation.

-Mike

 

[browncoat]

Don't forget the fun that happens if they bring grenades like they did in Mumbai.

A best case scenario for someone with only a pistol is getting lucky and killing one of the bastards in the process of escaping said mall or whatever it is. Anything more than that is pretty much pure crack smoking territory.

-Mike

But Jack Bauer almost exclusively uses a pistol!

 

[drgrant]

But Jack Bauer almost exclusively uses a pistol!

Yeah but Jack quite obviously gets his guns and skills from the same place that James Bond does, you know, the place that sells the PPK that can kill bad guys with a single hit from 100 yards away.

-Mike

 

[Mr. Gold]

Including creating the culture of turning everyone into KGB spies watching their neighbors, reporting suspicious behavior to the police. Creating fear among the people of their own government preventing them from speaking their mind against the actions of their government.

I can't begin to tell you how many people have contacted me on facebook and through direct means advising me not to attract so much attention, stop talking about the militarization of police, etc., etc.

And yes, a good number of people still think that this is all just a matter of chance and random occurrence.

There is no guiding hand (or hands, i,e human), it's all just "Well, this thing happened, and then thing happened and then we ended up like so..". This is why "We the people" will lose (we lost, we are just *starting* to feel the punishment), and "they" will win. I haven't heard of a war that was won without even knowing there's one going on.

 

[cekim]

Yeah but Jack quite obviously gets his guns and skills from the same place that James Bond does, you know, the place that sells the PPK that can kill bad guys with a single hit from 100 yards away.

-Mike

With a cup&saucer grip and flinching like a school girl.

 

[GPP]

Only if it fits their needs. Didn't law enforcement run to a local gun shop during a shootout in California looking for a rifle because the perps had body armor....anyone recall this

Google/youtube North Hollywood Shootout
Phillips and Matasareanu were well prepared.
This happenned in 1997, and one of the main reasons the LE in this country are in MRAPs and cammies as a "normal" response. If you watch the video, towards the end you start seeing LEOs in gym shorts/workout crap etc. Those are the SWAT guys, they were off training when this happenned, and did indeed borrow some firepower from a gun shop.

I agree with Ed, we arent ready for a legit coordinated attack, just look at whats going on in the Poconos right now, thats one man man with an as yet to be determined amount of training, but he certainly is toying withthe police isnt he.
Snaks is right, take a look at the Beslan incident, absolute shit show.

 

[mikem317]

Don't forget the fun that happens if they bring grenades like they did in Mumbai.

A best case scenario for someone with only a pistol is getting lucky and killing one of the bastards in the process of escaping said mall or whatever it is. Anything more than that is pretty much pure crack smoking territory.

-Mike

You'll increase your level of luckiness if you wait until it's "bow to Mecca" time.

 

[Pete85]

They still pretty much do that... and none of this matters anyways, because most of the damage will have been done by the time the cops show up, unless by some miracle they happen to be there already. It is uncommonly rare where you hear of a mass shooting that was interrupted "mid stream" by police officers. The reality is by the time the cops show up most of the causalities will already have occurred, unless its a weird standoff/hostage type of situation.

-Mike

Virginia Tech, the police were already there (on campus) when the shooting began. The bad guy still had enough time to murder 31 more people before turning the gun on himself. Unless the police officer is physically within site of the perp, and isn't one of the first people killed, I wouldn't count on the police being effective in protecting lives during an active shooter situation.

 

[cekim]

Virginia Tech, the police were already there (on campus) when the shooting began. The bad guy still had enough time to murder 31 more people before turning the gun on himself. Unless the police officer is physically within site of the perp, and isn't one of the first people killed, I wouldn't count on the police being effective in protecting lives during an active shooter situation.

"On Campus" is not "there".

Depending on the campus in question or mall in question that could still mean 5-15 minutes (or more) to get to the shooter.