NRA Instructor Rant

[HTRN]

In the special notes to the instructor for HFS is states that a shooting excercise should not be added to hfs.
An I agree that shooting is a key part of the NRA basic pistol shooting class. Simulators are a scam.

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[soam]

I admit that as a new shooter, I took the HFS class without live-fire in order to get my LTC. Knowing what I know now, if I could go back and re-do it I would take the Basic Pistol class and get some actual live-fire instruction. I managed to pick things up through a combination of self-practice and helpful advice from people on the range, but I think if I'd gotten some real instruction from the start my progress would have been faster.

 

[HTRN]

I admit that as a new shooter, I took the HFS class without live-fire in order to get my LTC. Knowing what I know now, if I could go back and re-do it I would take the Basic Pistol class and get some actual live-fire instruction. I managed to pick things up through a combination of self-practice and helpful advice from people on the range, but I think if I'd gotten some real instruction from the start my progress would have been faster.

I agree and let hfs studends come back for basic pistol at a discount.

Also, states like maine and ct require basic pistol (or equiv) for a non res permit.

By big issue is with instructors that issue bfs 007 certs and dont actually teach nra hfs.

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[newportri]

This is the definition of the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course:

Name : NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course

Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude for owning and operating a pistol safely.


More Details: This course is at least 8-hours long and includes classroom and range time learning to shoot revolvers and semi-automatic pistols. Students learn NRA’s rules for safe gun handling; pistol parts and operation; ammunition; shooting fundamentals; range rules; shooting from the bench rest position, and two handed standing positions; cleaning the pistol; and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Pistol Shooting handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, take a Basics of Pistol Shooting Student Examination, and course completion certificate. (Lesson Plan 2nd edition, 2009, 02/11)

I remember some time last year I got an email from the NRA saying they had found out some people offering the course as an online course! They NRA did not approve of that I hope those instructors lost their certification.

 

[M1911]

I remember some time last year I got an email from the NRA saying they had found out some people offering the course as an online course! They NRA did not approve of that I hope those instructors lost their certification.

I remember that same letter.

 

[Ink]

I am quite fortunate to have my own private facility to train at that is under construction!
That being said, my Basic Pistol Students are run through .22, .9mm and then are given an assortment of pistols in all calibers from .44 mag revolvers to .45 glocks etc etc and i give them 1/2 hour to shoot whatever they want as much as they want once i am satisfied with their performance with .22 and .9mm. Then i bring out other surprises...... they vary from class to class but everyone leaves my place well rounded, smiling for hours, and safe. I have only run one safety class that was not live fire and it was by request for a good friend. Those students got MSP BFS and HFS. (though i will also offer live fire on a limited voluntary basis after those classes as well for those who want it. )

 

[houdini]

if the nra find out about the instuctors they will lose the rating, for improper teaching, the course.

 

[StevieP]

I took a "basic firearms home safety" class. No live fire. I'd only ever shot a pistol at an indoor rental range in Texas, about ten years ago. Got my 870 shotgun as my first gun, and the first time I shot it (alone at a range) was the first time I'd ever even been present when a shotgun was fired. Talk about not knowing what to expect!

 

[MisterHappy]

The problem is not that the courses are good or bad; properly delivered or done poorly.

The problem is not that courses are required

The problem is that too many people have no mentor, no experienced shooter to show them the ropes, and are left to the vageries of instructors that may or may not have the students' best interests at heart.

I got my LTC long enough ago that there was no course required, but my dad had taught me. My kids will take, or have taken (one is an Apprentice Instructor in BP and HFS) the course to meet the requirements. But the majority of the knowledge that they have will not have come from the course, but from me, and from other shooters that "have done it" and have passed along the info.

What's the solutiuon? Damned if I know, short of requiring a mandatory school course, led by "real" shooters, involving real shooting. Ideally, we'd all be letting all our non-shooting friends know that we're happy to teach them, and they take us up on the offer.

In the real (Mass) world, I guess that we who hold the Certs., and teach, do it right, and self-police our ranks.

This past weekend, I helped in my Club's BP course, and one student said that he'd taken several different courses (!) - I believe him, as he had a very nice target - and that we'd given out a lot more info than others he'd taken. I asked if he was a reporter or a spy , and he said, "No, I just believe in training." While I appreciated his positive review.....we were teaching the Official Party-Approved Course....what were the namelss others teaching?

 

[Chris]

There was a time many years ago that GOAL tried to enact the Project Safety to devise and maintain a set of standards in training.

We had to abandon the project due to the number of complaints.

Makes you wonder just how many people out there are offering "courses" and are only in it for the money. I can't tell you the horror stories I've heard over the years.

Blue Stag anyone? (^_^)

 

[bill o]

This may be a non-statutory requirement for some towns/cities; Boston? But I surely didn't have to


See you soon & until then; keep it pointed down range

Boston has dumb requirements not specified by state law, but submitting a signed target is not one of them.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Blue Stag anyone? (^_^)

I know nothing about them, but found the concept of an outfit running NRA courses having a "chancellor" to be curious.

 

[quincy]

I don't think that I would like or feel safe attending the basic firearms requirement course that included live fire, unless there were enough instructors supervising the range and each student.

 

[PineTar]

There's a couple of conversations happening here but, it's threads like this that I crawled for weeks to find the right place for me to take my requirements class that met my needs. I absolutely wanted live fire, breakdown, cleanup, etc. I wanted to be well prepared given complete lack of previous trigger time. With the ridiculous mass waiting game, I ended up taking the next couple classes in the series to get more training.

 

[MisterHappy]

Quincy:

I'm not sure how it's done other places, but when we do it, the students are supervised by range coaches (they may not be Certified Instructors, but are experienced shooters), generally with a 2:1 or better ratio.

By the time the sudents go down to the range, the basics from the Three As to proper sight alignement, target picture, and trigger control.

Safety first.

 

[Taka]

I admit that as a new shooter, I took the HFS class without live-fire in order to get my LTC. Knowing what I know now, if I could go back and re-do it I would take the Basic Pistol class and get some actual live-fire instruction. I managed to pick things up through a combination of self-practice and helpful advice from people on the range, but I think if I'd gotten some real instruction from the start my progress would have been faster.

Nothing keeping you from taking a course now.
I'm trying to make it a rule to take at least 1 course a year to further my knowledge. The Basic Pistol course is just the beginning! not reason to stop there.

I took the basic pistol course at GOAL with Jon Green. It was excellent!
I got a group of friends together and reserved the whole class.

After the classroom time, we went to the range. Shot more rounds than I could count .22, .38, .357, 9, .45, Shot S&W Revolvers both snub and medium barrel, Glock, Ruger SR9, and a sweet 1911, and a few others I'm forgetting.

After the course we returned to GOAL and cleaned the firearms.
I appreciated Jon's patience, and teaching style, as well as his enthusiasm and eagerness to teach.
I also appreciated the post range clean up session. Not having owned I hadn't ever cleaned a firearm, a very important skill to learn.

 

[WindMeUp]

I've been meeting folks lately who took classes that were so short that they learned nothing but basic safety (don't point the gun at things you don't want to shoot, etc.) They didn't even leave the class with even a basic understanding of firearms and how they function.

 

[M1911]

I took a "basic firearms home safety" class. No live fire.

I suspect that you actually took an NRA Home Firearms Safety class. That class does not have any live fire, so the instructor was teaching it correctly. That isn't the issue that we are discussing. The issue that we are discussing is that some instructors teach the NRA Basic Pistol class without any range time. The curriculum for the Basic Pistol class does require range time, so instructors who teach it without range time are violating their agreement with the NRA and short-changing their students.

 

[M1911]

I don't think that I would like or feel safe attending the basic firearms requirement course that included live fire, unless there were enough instructors supervising the range and each student.

When I teach Basic Pistol, I have no more than 2 students on the line at a time. Many instructors do one-on-one.

The reality is that everyone is new to firearms at some point and they need to be taught how to shoot, and how to shoot safely.

 

[willbdavis]

I took the basic pistol course at GOAL with Jon Green. It was excellent.

I took my instructor course from Jon and Darius. I hope to emulate their skills, knowledge and attitude.

 

[MisterHappy]

I took my instructor course from Jon and Darius. I hope to emulate their skills, knowledge and attitude.

Kiss-ass!

How will you do that.....by moving from the simple to the complex?

Actually, having sat through a fair number of training classes in my time, Jon does a hell of a job - the basics are seamlessly incorporated, so emulation is a good goal.

It really makes you cringe, after taking Jon's class, to see a head-down-monotone-book-droner put a class to sleep......

 

[paracarry]

I didn't think I would here of an instructor worse than the one that has his students shoot an air soft gun, Well I did. Yesterday I taught a class and one of them told me there is a guy in one town that will meet a person some place pull up in his car, not even get out, ask the person a series of questions about firearms safety they hand him the money and he gives them a certificate. Top that one.

 

[blindndead]

No shooting for me when I took my Basic Pistol course.

 

[HTRN]

I didn't think I would here of an instructor worse than the one that has his students shoot an air soft gun, Well I did. Yesterday I taught a class and one of them told me there is a guy in one town that will meet a person some place pull up in his car, not even get out, ask the person a series of questions about firearms safety they hand him the money and he gives them a certificate. Top that one.

What does the cert say for the certification Number?

e.g. The LTC-002 Cert means that the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course (Taught exactly as specified by the NRA) plus the relevant overview of Mass law was taught.

Ive spoken with folks that were given their Cert: LTC-007 with no NRA material provided and no adherence to the NRA curriculum. Its cool if you want to teach something different, but you are committing fraud if you call it the NRA class.

 

[Independence Arms]

Can't top it, but will come close. There is a guy in my area that takes you to his basement, shows you a 45 min DVD, and off you go!

I didn't think I would here of an instructor worse than the one that has his students shoot an air soft gun, Well I did. Yesterday I taught a class and one of them told me there is a guy in one town that will meet a person some place pull up in his car, not even get out, ask the person a series of questions about firearms safety they hand him the money and he gives them a certificate. Top that one.

 

[jasons]

Makes you wonder just how many people out there are offering "courses" and are only in it for the money.

I can think of a few who advertise here on NES.

 

[economist]

Let's imagine we lived in a world with no training requirement. Would we care if two people agreed to trade, where one gets a meaningless piece of paper and another gets cash? Assuming both enter into the deal voluntarily, then I can't see a problem. The issue now is that people don't enter into these transactions voluntarily, and the coercive actor here is that state. By requiring training, the predictable result is a market for certification independent of content, and, perhaps, clueless applicants who think they are receiving real training because it ostensibly meets some state requirement.

This is how mandatory training corrupts the process. Take that requirement away and we are left with people who want real instruction for their money and who won't tolerate some clown in a basement with an airsoft pistol as a substitute.

Finally, I can't imagine any of you are concerned about the NRA's reputation. The NRA could tighten its requirements for instructors if it really cared about this issue. Given the requirements, I think we all know just how concerned the NRA is about instructor quality.

 

[Admin]

Mandatory training unconstitutional.

 

[GunGrey]

Mandatory training unconstitutional.

Yep

 

[jasons]

Mandatory training unconstitutional.

No shit.