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NRA Instructor Rant

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As much as they're misrepresenting the NRA class - if the price is right I'm sure someone moving from a free state to MA who has experience would be more than happy to take a drive up course. If my understanding is correct, taking the basic pistol course in another state doesn't satisfy the requirement - they have to be a MA instructor. At that point I wouldn't mind "cheating" either. Like others have said - the BS rules that MA came up is what's spawning the illegitimate classes.
 

HTRN

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Let's imagine we lived in a world with no training requirement. Would we care if two people agreed to trade, where one gets a meaningless piece of paper and another gets cash? Assuming both enter into the deal voluntarily, then I can't see a problem. The issue now is that people don't enter into these transactions voluntarily, and the coercive actor here is that state. By requiring training, the predictable result is a market for certification independent of content, and, perhaps, clueless applicants who think they are receiving real training because it ostensibly meets some state requirement.

This is how mandatory training corrupts the process. Take that requirement away and we are left with people who want real instruction for their money and who won't tolerate some clown in a basement with an airsoft pistol as a substitute.

Finally, I can't imagine any of you are concerned about the NRA's reputation. The NRA could tighten its requirements for instructors if it really cared about this issue. Given the requirements, I think we all know just how concerned the NRA is about instructor quality.


This is 100% correct.

Mandatory training is more of a problem than any type of solution. The problem is in offering this, a grey market as developed due to the mandatory component, this has resulted in forms of fraud. Do away with the state mandate, and the market prevails and everybody except the scammers and the state win!
 

jasons

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Lets not get all day lady now.

Nah, good for them.

pew-pew-pew-02.jpg
 

DickWanner

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The problem with the BP course is most students barely have the attention span for a 4-hour course let alone a straight 8-hour shot. The solution there is to break the course up into two different days (as many do), but now you've created more of a burden on your students who have to potentially take off two days of work or hire a babysitter twice. Everyone here talks about how mandatory training is wrong, but only advocate BP. HFS (and LTC-020) has it's limitations, but if taught efficiently the student should leave with the same safety knowledge base that they would with BP. You should always advocate further training, with could include something as simple as hiring a local instructor for a 1-hour range session.
 

M1911

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HFS is fine if someone just needs to check the box in order to take the class. But if someone wants to learn to shoot HFS is not sufficient. Nor is a HFS and a one-hour range session.

Is Basic Pistol the perfect class? No, of course not. It has its warts.
 

HTRN

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HFS is fine if someone just needs to check the box in order to take the class. But if someone wants to learn to shoot HFS is not sufficient. Nor is a HFS and a one-hour range session.

Is Basic Pistol the perfect class? No, of course not. It has its warts.

Agreed

Sent from my mobile device, please excuse typos and brevity.
 

Len-2A Training

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Mandatory training unconstitutional.

As Glidden has stated in both LE and civilian seminars over the past few years . . . the marching orders from EOPS is that MA proceeds as if the two USSC cases never existed. Thus the Constitution is "null and void" in MA and has been for many years (not just about the 2nd Amendment either).

---------------


To the discussion at hand:

- As an NRA Instructor, I am dead set against state mandated training. Everyone should seek training, but it should be "because you want to" not that some bureaucrat dictates that you must take it.
- As an NRA Instructor, you agree to teach the exact curriculum as laid out by NRA. If you fail as an Instructor to do this, you are defrauding both your students and the NRA. If you want to create your own course, create your own course and do NOT represent it as an NRA course.
- As a consumer, I want what I pay for and personally I like to be continually educated. I would not be happy with merely handing over money and getting a piece of paper in return with no education imparted. That's consumer fraud.
- If the NRA becomes aware of specific Instructors not teaching the course properly, they do take action (remove said instructor's credentials). However policing untold thousands of instructors around the country isn't an easy task.
- The state has proven that all they want is your $50 to become state certified to teach BFS courses. They could care less about the quality of said courses. Proof of that is here, all over NES with newbies asking questions that are supposed to be covered in the MA law portion of every state-approved class! I don't fault those asking, but I do fault the "instructors" who aren't teaching them the material.
 

M1911

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Proof of that is here, all over NES with newbies asking questions that are supposed to be covered in the MA law portion of every state-approved class! I don't fault those asking, but I do fault the "instructors" who aren't teaching them the material.

The instructors may not have covered that material. Or they may well have taught it and the student just didn't retain it.

After a full 8 hour day, most students are blasted and just aren't going to retain much. Add to that the fact that MA is horribly confusing. So it isn't surprising that many MA residents new to shooting ask questions which they should have learned at their safety course.
 
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The instructors may not have covered that material. Or they may well have taught it and the student just didn't retain it.

After a full 8 hour day, most students are blasted and just aren't going to retain much. Add to that the fact that MA is horribly confusing. So it isn't surprising that many MA residents new to shooting ask questions which they should have learned at their safety course.

That, plus the fact that most people are not great teachers. This has nothing to do with knowing the subject or trying to do it well. All of us have endured tedious lectures, poor presentations, and bad teachers. They tell stories about themselves, try to be funny when they are not, or, worst of all, intentionally insert confusion and needless terminology in order to appear smart (my personal favorite: "non-diagnostic linear malfunction drill"). This happens everywhere. No reasonable person can expect a one day course offered by some random gun guy to produce consistent results even with the best effort and attention by all involved.

All the more reason, as if we needed it, to eliminate mandatory training. It would weed out some of the worst instructors out there.
 

dwarven1

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HFS is fine if someone just needs to check the box in order to take the class. But if someone wants to learn to shoot HFS is not sufficient. Nor is a HFS and a one-hour range session.

Is Basic Pistol the perfect class? No, of course not. It has its warts.

Case in point - one of my Lodge brother's just wanted the fastest possible class - friend of his (an instructor, and no, I don't know who) basically handed him the HFS book and made him take the test. I don't know that he ever went over the laws; I'm guessing not. But my Brother already knew how to shoot; just needed the paper for the State.

Now his wife wants to learn how to shoot, so he's signing her up for my next Basic Pistol class. Since she's never shot before, that all makes sense to me.

The instructors may not have covered that material. Or they may well have taught it and the student just didn't retain it.

After a full 8 hour day, most students are blasted and just aren't going to retain much. Add to that the fact that MA is horribly confusing. So it isn't surprising that many MA residents new to shooting ask questions which they should have learned at their safety course.

That's why I decided to buy the GOAL law pamphlets and include one for each student. That way they've got something to take home and refer to if needed.
 

Jsfitzgerald85

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my buddy took a class it was a couple of hours and he didnt even get to live fire. My class i took with my Uncle who teaches the class, it was his first class, it lasted 10 hours and i fired 40 rds through a Ruger semi auto .22 and prob close to the same through a .22 Revolver, now his classes he gives the students the option to shoot a 1911 after they fire the .22s
 

Ozman

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I'm with jar on this one. I can't count how many things are wrong with the scenario outlined by the OP. Damage to the NRA and the good work it tries to do at a minimm, fraud/theft for failure to deliver services as promised at worst.

I could rant but the above sums it up.

Steve

If you can find out who the instructor is, rat them out to NRA. Shady instructors reflect poorly on the rest of us.

Do note however that home firearms safety also satisfies the
MA requirements and does not include live fire.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2
 

DickWanner

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HFS is fine if someone just needs to check the box in order to take the class. But if someone wants to learn to shoot HFS is not sufficient. Nor is a HFS and a one-hour range session.

Is Basic Pistol the perfect class? No, of course not. It has its warts.

Agreed, key emphasis on student choice though.


The instructors may not have covered that material. Or they may well have taught it and the student just didn't retain it.

After a full 8 hour day, most students are blasted and just aren't going to retain much. Add to that the fact that MA is horribly confusing. So it isn't surprising that many MA residents new to shooting ask questions which they should have learned at their safety course.

Absolutely. As much as every instructor would like to teach everything he/she knows to a student in one go, it's simply not possible. Compromises must be made at times for the greater good of the student. Yes, I think it's important as a gun owner to be able to take apart and clean a gun, but I'd rather them be 100% of safe gun handling, law, and how to safely load and unload. Any gun shop worth going to will be able to show them how to properly take apart and clean when the student reaches that step.
 
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needless terminology in order to appear smart (my personal favorite: "non-diagnostic linear malfunction drill")

You mean you don't stress the importance of eschewing ballistically induced subcutaneous apertures?
 

paracarry

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I recently had a person come to me for a private lesson, they took a course got their permit but never fired a gun. I guessed the instructors name right away. They said that the instructor told them in the class that the reason he doesn't let the students handle the firearms is because they don't know what they are doing. WOW.
 

dhuze

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That's a bunch of crap. No shit most of them don't know what they are doing. That's why they pay you to take a class. well, unless you are in MA and need an LTC.
I'd never not take someone shooting after a class. That's the whole point.
I try to have them shoot a .22 to start a 9mm semi and a .38/.357 revolver.
 

Len-2A Training

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There are some courses with no live fire. The Hunter Safety course that I took, NOBODY even touched a gun . . . since I'm not a Hunter Ed instructor, I have no idea if we should have or not per the curriculum, my guess is not required.

I only very rarely get involved in teaching basic courses but recently taught a HFS course with Scouter Rick. After the NRA course we took them to the range and they shot .22 (rifle, pistol, revolver - 10 rds in each), 9mm (Glock & M&P - 5 rds in each), .223 (AR-15 - 5 rds each) and 7.62x39 (AK-47 - 5 rds each).

Some instructors do the minimum to get by legally and some of us really try to give the students an opportunity to learn.
 

TY43215

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If the purpose is to teach the minimal course for a license, the NRA "Home Firearms Safety" course qualifies, and does not required any live fire. Passing off a course with airsoft as "Basic Pistol" (which requires live fire) is fraud.

One problem with the NRA instructor program is very minimal qualifications required. SNIP

Which is why I refuse to put my name on anyone's NRA credentials. I have been a Firearms instructor since 1982 and a NRA Instructor for 10 years. I do not give any basic course anymore. There are too many instructors out there that have less qualifications than many of their students all because it is required and instructors are being pumped out.

I will gladly teach anyone with a LTC that did not have live fire practice my time on the range. I do it at no charge (except ammo you supply) as a way to give back to the people that spent time with me when I started out.

Too many people with limited knowledge and excess time have decided to watch you tube videos, take an instructors course, and take advantage of people wanting to exercise their constitutional rights in MA. Unfortunately, the Commonwealth has created a monster.
 

Periphery

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I work with a guy who bought a Ruger SR9 and has never so much as held a handgun before, let alone shot it. Oh and he's in the Army. That scares me honestly, he was asking me how you even hold the thing. Maybe its just me but I wouldn't buy a gun without having fired something somewhat equivalent to it before.
 

HuntMaine

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Question for the other instructors. I recently had the opportunity to teach the basic course in Florida. Had a couple of people who were interested and since I was going to be down there it gave me some drinking money. My question is do we do anything different in terms of their cert? Shpulda looked into it earlier but I assumed it would be uniform across the states interms of the class.
 
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I work with a guy who bought a Ruger SR9 and has never so much as held a handgun before, let alone shot it. Oh and he's in the Army. That scares me honestly, he was asking me how you even hold the thing. Maybe its just me but I wouldn't buy a gun without having fired something somewhat equivalent to it before.

I was pleasantly surprised that the NH hunting field day had a live fire part with a 22 rifle. Then the instructor asked who had never fired a gun before and a few hands went up. I understand that we all have to start somewhere but I never imaged the first time shooting would be with game in front of you. One young participant got extra range time "until he could get on paper".
 
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