"New" gun law in MA on High Cap?

[huskyal02_R1]

Hi all,

My friend just had a firearm safety training course in the Cape area and the topic of high capacity mag came up. I'm aware of the "Pre Ban" mags and the argument about proofing them Pre or Post ban...that's topic for another day. However, he was told by the trainer that if you have Class A High Capacity license, you are able to have high capacity mags, pre or post ban.

Do we have any lawyer that can confirm that statement? I don't want my friend to go to jail on misleading information.

 

[bfm]

False

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Hi all,

My friend just had a firearm safety training course in the Cape area and the topic of high capacity mag came up. I'm aware of the "Pre Ban" mags and the argument about proofing them Pre or Post ban...that's topic for another day. However, he was told by the trainer that if you have Class A High Capacity license, you are able to have high capacity mags, pre or post ban.

Do we have any lawyer that can confirm that statement? I don't want my friend to go to jail on misleading information.

False. That guy is going to get folks in some hot water.

 

[W.E.C]

It's a large capacity class A , must be different from high capacity.

 

[not new guy]

Out the trainer.

 

[Palladin]

love it that these guys are 'trainers'

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Maybe your friend miss understood. That's too hard to believe. Jack.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Did the trainer have trouble breathing because his rectal sphinctor was choking his air supply?

What was said is true ONLY if the possessor also has a MA dealer's license.

 

[GlockJock]

love it that these guys are 'trainers'

I've got ten bucks that says the part-time trainer is also a full-time State Trooper, State Rep, or (for the win) a retired Lieutenant in the local town PD (and maybe even the licensing officer for the town as well). The level of misinformation that's distributed by people "in the know" is often amazing (like the Trooper who told me years ago I couldn't carry hollow points cuz by law they were for LEO only)..
On the plus side, OP, you did the right thing by asking HERE cuz long ago I was told by someone I trust to never,ever take anyone's word about anything involving firearms in MA until you've at least asked the awesome people here at NES first....

 

[Len-2A Training]

Maybe your friend miss understood. That's too hard to believe. Jack.

No, not hard to believe at all. Most instructors are ignorant of the law and make stuff up or spout what someone else told them without ever vetting the info.

That's one of the major reasons I developed my MA Gun Law Seminar and vet all my info (I have cites for damn near everything in the seminar). Sadly very few instructors care to invest in learning the material, most of my students are not instructors but people who just want to learn the right info.

Did the trainer have trouble breathing because his rectal sphinctor was choking his air supply?

What was said is true ONLY if the possessor also has a MA dealer's license.

. . . or a LEO (active).

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Out this stupid trainer, please.

 

[MachineHead]

"New" gun law in MA on High Cap?

Hey, if all MSPs and LEOs want to believe that standard caps post 1994 are okay with a "class A high capacity license" then I guess it fixes everything. [lol]

 

[MAJoe]

Ouch. Definitely 100% false. Can your buddy contact the trainer and confirm what he said? If he believes this, he needs to be shown the MGL so he doesn't mislead others.


My trainer said we could only have one loaded firearm in the home in MA... So silly stuff is out there. At least that misstep won't get someone arrested.

 

[slap shot]

Ouch. Definitely 100% false. Can your buddy contact the trainer and confirm what he said? If he believes this, he needs to be shown the MGL so he doesn't mislead others.


My trainer said we could only have one loaded firearm in the home in MA... So silly stuff is out there. At least that misstep won't get someone arrested.

what? we're allowed to load them???

 

[iofneedle]

Hi all,

My friend just had a firearm safety training course in the Cape area and the topic of high capacity mag came up. I'm aware of the "Pre Ban" mags and the argument about proofing them Pre or Post ban...that's topic for another day. However, he was told by the trainer that if you have Class A High Capacity license, you are able to have high capacity mags, pre or post ban.

Do we have any lawyer that can confirm that statement? I don't want my friend to go to jail on misleading information.

This is abso****inglutley FALSE


Your buddy needs to contact this dude...he could get folks in BIG...I say BIG trouble.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Can your buddy contact the trainer and confirm what he said? If he believes this, he needs to be shown the MGL so he doesn't mislead others.

This is important. After taking the NRA instructor course a couple months ago, one of the things that is pointed out is that people remember 10% of what they have been told. 65% retention rate for things they have done/demonstrated.

Since law is in the lecture portion, I can see how people wiill "misremember' things. There is a lot of info coming at you all at once. It would be good to find out if it was taught, or remembered incorrectly.

This is why I hand out the Goal law book and tell students that they are responsible for knowing, and interpreting the laws for themselves. Len and Guida get a plug as well for those with extensive questions.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Most likely said something like this... "If you have a LC LTC A you can have a large capacity handgun, no matter when it was made."

I make sure I am very clear in my classes. After the whole AWB discussion with dates etc. I say .. "So, if you have a magazine for a pistol or rifle that holds >10.. It better be old."

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Did the trainer have trouble breathing because his rectal sphinctor was choking his air supply?

What was said is true ONLY if the possessor also has a MA dealer's license.

Of is a "special" person. i.e. LEO.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This is why I hand out the Goal law book and tell students that they are responsible for knowing, and interpreting the laws for themselves. Len and Guida get a plug as well for those with extensive questions.

I don't know if GOAL has updated their "law book" but last I looked at their printed material and website, there were significant items that were incorrect or out of date. I received my (excellent) BP/HFS instructor training from Jon Green ~2009 and we were handed legal info and the last I worked a GOAL table at a gun show (1 show after the BOD over-throw) we were still handing out the same info and not all of it was correct. Also Atty Jason Guida clarified numerous laws for me that aren't/weren't reflected on GOAL's docs/website. I have gone over all of these discrepancies with Scouter-Rick (GOAL BOD member and close personal friend as well as my other NRA TC) hoping that change would occur but it hasn't as of the last I looked.

I created my own law hand-out for training purposes for that reason.

 

[not new guy]

People really shouldn't be giving out advice like this unless they're truly qualified to. Holding an instructor's certification from the NRA qualifies them for exactly nothing with respect to MA law, but that piece of paper, along with the little nuggets of information picked up over the years from gun shops and cops makes people think that they're somehow in a position to dispense legal advice.

 

[Len-2A Training]

People really shouldn't be giving out advice like this unless they're truly qualified to. Holding an instructor's certification from the NRA qualifies them for exactly nothing with respect to MA law, but that piece of paper, along with the little nuggets of information picked up over the years from gun shops and cops makes people think that they're somehow in a position to dispense legal advice.

Sadly, MSP BFS Certificate requires that they dispense legal advice! It does allow giving a handout (that nobody will ever read) or teach it. You are correct that almost universally those teaching it aren't qualified (other than by sending in $50 + copy of NRA Cert) to do so and the printed info out there isn't correct either.

 

[drgrant]

At least he didn't tell him the worst version which is:

"You can only use preban mags in a preban gun...." everytime I see this shit regurgitated somewhere (usually faceplant) I end up wanting to respond like this guy...

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

I don't know if GOAL has updated their "law book" but last I looked at their printed material and website, there were significant items that were incorrect or out of date. I received my (excellent) BP/HFS instructor training from Jon Green ~2009 and we were handed legal info and the last I worked a GOAL table at a gun show (1 show after the BOD over-throw) we were still handing out the same info and not all of it was correct. Also Atty Jason Guida clarified numerous laws for me that aren't/weren't reflected on GOAL's docs/website. I have gone over all of these discrepancies with Scouter-Rick (GOAL BOD member and close personal friend as well as my other NRA TC) hoping that change would occur but it hasn't as of the last I looked.

I created my own law hand-out for training purposes for that reason.

It has been updated, at least to reflect some of the major changes.(Chemical sprays, one LTC, no A or B etc...) Whether or not the entire thing is accurate and updated is beyond me.

I don't have a cite at the moment, but I believe that even the EOPS and MGL text contradict each other at times. Searching for actual up to date MGL is like chasing my tail.

I have done my best using Comm2a's references to the change in law, actual text of MGL to create a "work in progress" slide show and discussion on the law. The biggest take away that I give them is that there is some black, some white, and a lot of grey area.

 

[not new guy]

Sadly, MSP BFS Certificate requires that they dispense legal advice! It does allow giving a handout (that nobody will ever read) or teach it. You are correct that almost universally those teaching it aren't qualified (other than by sending in $50 + copy of NRA Cert) to do so and the printed info out there isn't correct either.

I have a law degree, I've been hanging around here for 6+ years now, and I've been active enough buying, selling, owning and shooting over that time to run into plenty of questions that I was curious enough to research answers for, and I know that I sure as shit wouldn't feel comfortable standing in front of a room full of paying customers taking questions and advising them on MA gun laws. The laws are too much of a mess and the stakes are too high.

 

[EJFudd]

One would hope this was a simple misspeaking or listener misunderstanding of what was said. It's hard to believe that a trainer would believe that after so many years since the Federal AWB and subsequent MA AWB were enacted.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

I have a law degree, I've been hanging around here for 6+ years now, and I've been active enough buying, selling, owning and shooting over that time to run into plenty of questions that I was curious enough to research answers for, and I know that I sure as shit wouldn't feel comfortable standing in front of a room full of paying customers taking questions and advising them on MA gun laws.

Problem is, as Len said, you are required to in order to teach the class. The best way I can go about it is to teach the stuff that is 100% clear. This is where/how you get an LTC. This is the AWB. This is the text of storage and transportation laws, and this is how I do it. I hand out the best available (that I know of) printed material on the subject, and give them the best available resources (that I know of) to become more educated on the subject.

At the end of the day it is up to them, as it is all of us, to make their own decisions on how much law they want to try and understand.

ETA:
The other thing that, for me, is the most important. If I don't know or something is completely unclear... I say so. I don't make crap up. If they ask me what I do/would do in a given situation, I tell them, but I tell them that it is my interpretation and that they are still responsible for understanding and staying within the law.

 

[not new guy]

Problem is, as Len said, you are required to in order to teach the class. The best way I can go about it is to teach the stuff that is 100% clear. This is where/how you get an LTC. This is the AWB. This is the text of storage and transportation laws, and this is how I do it. I hand out the best available (that I know of) printed material on the subject, and give them the best available resources (that I know of) to become more educated on the subject.

At the end of the day it is up to them, as it is all of us, to make their own decisions on how much law they want to try and understand.

I get it, and your approach sounds to be the best you can aim for under the current system. The temptation for most instructors to try to be helpful must be pretty high when people start asking the inevitable questions though, and I imagine that's where a lot of this comes from.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

I get it, and your approach sounds to be the best you can aim for under the current system. The temptation for most instructors to try to be helpful must be pretty high when people start asking the inevitable questions though, and I imagine that's where a lot of this comes from.

I think we just cross posted. I have an ETA which, kinda covers that above...

 

[huskyal02_R1]

OK, cool. I will let him know!!!!!

 

[Len-2A Training]

One would hope this was a simple misspeaking or listener misunderstanding of what was said. It's hard to believe that a trainer would believe that after so many years since the Federal AWB and subsequent MA AWB were enacted.

You'd be surprised!

I have a law degree, I've been hanging around here for 6+ years now, and I've been active enough buying, selling, owning and shooting over that time to run into plenty of questions that I was curious enough to research answers for, and I know that I sure as shit wouldn't feel comfortable standing in front of a room full of paying customers taking questions and advising them on MA gun laws. The laws are too much of a mess and the stakes are too high.

I make clear upfront in my seminar that I am NOT giving legal advice. What I provide is info on the current interpretations of the MA gun laws as of the date of the seminar, will provide info on my sources and citations if asked (I don't bore students with PPT slides of legal citations however) and advise them to seek competent (in MA gun law) legal counsel if something is important enough that they could lose their freedom and gun rights. I do my best to vet my info from the sources and freely state where it comes from.

ETA: I cover a lot of gray areas and lay them out that way. A classic example is the large capacity definition. I explain the black letter of the law (everything with an external mag meets that definition of large capacity) and then I explain the CMR which limits what they consider large capacity, then finish off with an admonition that at any time the EOPS interpretation could change and jam people up!