New Glock 17 purchase (Legally?)

[szaino]

I have a friend who lives in Mass and has LTC A. He also owns property in Maine, has a gun license in Maine and a Maine drivers License.

As I understand the law he can legally buy a new Glock 17 in Maine, transport it to Mass and then sell to me (LTC A) as a private sale and fill out the FA10. Of course it would come with the 10 round mags.

I have read somewhere in this forum,that BATF only recognizes one state of residence. How does that affect this transaction? I don't want to do anything that violates the law, but will take full advantage of the same law.

Not to start a wild goose chase but the guy at Kittery Trading Post that was giving me pricing and availability said that just recently there was something about the Mass AG banning all Glocks. I told him that they basically had already done that with the 1998 regulations of dealer sales. But he insisted it wasn't that but something else very recent where “all” Glocks were going to be banned and that the higher ups at Kittery TP were talking about it.

I don't know if this is true or whether news just travels slow up the Maine turnpike.

 

[LoginName]

I'm not going to comment one way or another about the legalitys involved, but this is from the ATFs website...

B11) What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

(B12) May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b12

 

[Lugnut]

I have a friend who lives in Mass and has LTC A. He also owns property in Maine, has a gun license in Maine and a Maine drivers License.

Wow- how does one legally acquire a gun license in both states? I assume his gun license from Maine isn't a nonres either? If it's not complicated I'd like to do this as well.... sorry to derail the thread.

 

[drgrant]

Wow- how does one legally acquire a gun license in both states? I assume his gun license from Maine isn't a nonres either? If it's not complicated I'd like to do this as well.... sorry to derail the thread.

Well, it depends on what the state's standards for "residency"
are. Most states will not allow you to be a dual resident, as far as
I know. Of course, in many cases much "rug sweeping" occurs
because people don't know the laws or the applicable clerks are
unintentionally negligent. (A friend of mine was once allowed to keep his
MA DL @ the DMV in Maryland when he got his new license.... that was a
little bizarre. ).

I don't see what the point of getting a resident maine CCW is, unless the
term is longer or something. In MA it obviously would make the
term a whole hell of a lot longer, but I don't know what the MA standard
is in terms of someone being considered "not a resident".

There's also some applicable Federal BS... I thought the BATFE standard
was a continious period of 90 days or more in the other location.... of
course in the referenced stuff, it refers to "aliens".

Which brings up another topic... some FFLs will have no problem selling
you a handgun if you can prove you live whereever you are; but many
others will refuse to sell unless they see a DL issued by
the state they're in. EG, some FFLs fully understand the law WRT
"dual residency", and others do not.

This issue is somewhat controversial... especially for retirees and the
like that may spend a lot of time in two different places. I know people
with active mil ID's basically get carte blanche on residency issues,
though. A friend of mine was able to buy a handgun in FL by showing
his Mil ID and his orders (showing his station being in FL), and he didn't
have an FL DL at the time or anything like that.

FWIW, here's an excellent thread discussing the issue... I'd call it "Epic Grade".

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6062&highlight=residency

Draw whatever conclusions you will from the information presented therein.

-Mike

 

[vellnueve]

He can't do that because you can't sell a handgun across a state line without involving an FFL in the state where it is sold, by federal regulations. Unless he moves to Massachusetts and lives here he cannot sell the firearm to you directly. If he does, though, there is no problem as there is no restriction on the purchase of non-AG compliant firearms, only on the sales of such by MA dealers.

 

[szaino]

Thanks for the FAQ's from the ATF website. That really says it all.

 

[M1911]

As far a Vellnueve’s comment - he is not selling a handgun across a state line. He is legally buying it in one state (Maine) and legally selling it as a private sale in Mass.

Be very, very careful. I strongly suggest that you get legal advice.

If he is buying it with the intention of selling it, that may raise red flags.

 

[szaino]

I agree that it may raise a flag, that is why I am going to this forum for advice.

But the bottom line- if it is legal, intent doesn't matter.

Unless the law has wording to the effect that -"intent to circumvent the provisions of the law etc etc ", it is still legal.

The law already has provisions limiting the private transfers to 4 per year. Which in my book is a pretty extreme regulation of rights.

My concern is that when the FA-10 gets filed, I don't want repercussions.

 

[M1911]

I agree that it may raise a flag, that is why I am going to this forum for advice.

The free advice you get here is worth just what you paid for it. Are you willing to bet your freedom that an anonymous individual gave you correct advice?

I suggest you pay (yes, real money) a competent attorney to advise you.

He is buying a gun with the intention of selling it to you. You are not able to purchase that gun in ME. Would the feds consider this a straw purchase? If they would, then welcome to club fed.

More importantly, why go to all this bother when you could just go pick up a used Glock 17 at a local gun store?

 

[adweisbe]

Sounds like a fantastic way to meet Lon Horiuchi.

 

[szaino]

I know that I could get a used Glock 17, but

1. it is used
2. not a 3rd gen, which is what I really want.

 

[dwarven1]

Because the guy you're talking to isn't afraid of the AG. I just hope that Herr Reilly doesn't decide to slap down this guy as a parting shot.

Ross

 

[szaino]

With how agressive the AG is when it comes to guns, how in the world can someone openly and blatantly break the law with out being called on it ?

I would think that he could be shut down in a moments notice ! And being a small shop would never have the money to get into a legal battle with the AG. Because when it comes to legal disputes, it's not whether you are right or wrong but how long you can play the game.

None of this makes any sense...

 

[M1911]

1. it is used

So? It will still work just fine.

 

[adweisbe]

With how agressive the AG is when it comes to guns, how in the world can someone openly and blatantly break the law with out being called on it ?

He isn't breaking the law. Glock's are on "The list." The AG is the one breaking the law with his ludicrous interpretation of "unfair or deceptive acts or practices." Which the dealers fight in court for one reason or another (they didn't see it through).

 

[drgrant]

With how agressive the AG is when it comes to guns, how in the world can someone openly and blatantly break the law with out being called on it ?

Because nobody (except for reilly) cares about his dumbass
consumer safety regs. There's also enough Glocks sold to
LEOs in this state (via exemption) that it provides a
smokescreen. EG, when the gun is registered by the dealer there
is no delineation as to wether or not the purchaser is a LEO. This
means that externally (eg, by doing searches in a registration database)
it's fairly non-trivial to find out wether or not a Glock went to a LEO or
joe consumer. They'd actually have to do "real work" to investigate
someone.

None of this makes any sense... except that I will probably have a NIB G17 in a couple of days.

Welcome to MA! Not much about the laws here make any sense,
especially not the handgun dealer sales regs.

The other way to get a 3rd gen glock is to find a used one on gunbroker or
wherever that has a serial # that clocks in before 10/21/98. Any of
those guns are importable to just about any FFL with a brain, because
they're exempt from the CS regs.

-Mike

 

[KMaurer]

Be very, very careful. I strongly suggest that you get legal advice.

If he is buying it with the intention of selling it, that may raise red flags.

Intentions never have and never will raise any flags. It's talking about those intentions that raises the flags. In this case, I can't see any state laws that might cause problems. The only two federal laws might be interstate sales by a non-licensed individual or a straw sale. The first would be taken care of if the buyer resided in Maine long enough before returning to Massachusetts. The second would only be a problem if it were illegal for the final purchaser to purchase the gun. Since the gun isn't illegal and the final purchaser has the proper license, I don't see a problem here either.

Of course, legal doesn't mean there can't be trouble and more than illegal means there has to be trouble.

Ken

 

[vellnueve]

As far a Vellnueve’s comment - he is not selling a handgun across a state line. He is legally buying it in one state (Maine) and legally selling it as a private sale in Mass.

I failed to note that he was a Mass resident as well. Title 18 USC Chp 44 SS 922 (5) of course prohibits the sale of firearms between non-FFLs in different states.

In that case, it is all about whether you would consider this to be a straw purchase. Since you are not legally restricted from buying the firearm (if someone in MA has one you could buy it with no legal problems whatsoever, it's the dealer who can't sell to you) then it doesn't meet that definition of straw purchase.

 

[szaino]

thanks for the info

 

[M1911]

Came with hi-cap 17 mags.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

If those are new, post-ban 17 round magazines, they are illegal in MA. Unless you are a LEO, it is a felony to possess them.

 

[vellnueve]

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

If those are new, post-ban 17 round magazines, they are illegal in MA. Unless you are a LEO, it is a felony to possess them.

+1. If they are post ban you better get rid of them. Unlike the AG regulations, that part of the law is black and white.

 

[Executive]

Original post of having a friend buy in Maine etc etc ...is now a moot point.

Picked up my NIB G17 from the dealer today. Came with hi-cap 17 mags.

Had a good talk about the law with the owner of the store. He sells anything on the EOPS approved list and basically ignores the AG regs whom he took to court a couple of years ago and won.

 

[Lugnut]

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

If those are new, post-ban 17 round magazines, they are illegal in MA. Unless you are a LEO, it is a felony to possess them.

Yep.. that's why mine are stored in Maine.

 

[szaino]

I am still checking into the post ban mag issue which the law is pretty black and white about.

According to the dealer, the issue with Glock Mags (and I saw the glock mag thread) there is no way to conclusively identify post ban from pre ban.

Now this is coming from a dealer who is equally at risk under the law for selling post ban hi caps and sells them every week.

I could go buy some "purported" pre ban hi caps but what difference would it make if they look just like the ones that are coming NIB. The point is if Glock isn't going to identify pre v post, who in the world is in a position to do so?

What I am going to do is take close up pics of my mags and send them to Glock for confirmation that they are pre ban because of the Mass requirement.

It will be interesting to see what they say. If they support the fact that they are pre ban, then I have a manufacturers certification of sorts which I can just stick in my gun file.

 

[vellnueve]

Both you and the dealer are playing with fire.

 

[FPrice]

What I am going to do is take close up pics of my mags and send them to Glock for confirmation that they are pre ban because of the Mass requirement.

Try reviewing this thread:

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4944

 

[M1911]

Now this is coming from a dealer who is equally at risk under the law for selling post ban hi caps and sells them every week.

Are you willing to risk jail time for that?

As for getting confirmation from Glock that the mags you got are pre-ban, you won't get it. First, if the mags came with a recent production gun, then they aren't pre-ban. Second, Glock has refused in the past to identify pre versus post-ban mags.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Better make that request of Glock-Austria (no available Email addresses that we know of), as they won't tell Glock-US what the story is. Read the other thread referenced above and you'll learn what I learned when I queried Glock-US.

Unlike the old Fed Ban (where the BATFE Tech Branch clarified things) where they spelled out that you could rebuild a mag with new parts, etc. . . . MA has NO TECHNICAL (gun) people in EOPS/CHSB that make any such pronouncements for ALL GUN OWNERS. Since no MA laws/regs specify that you can rebuild a mag with new parts, we are all on our own (at risk) if/when someone wants to prosecute someone to put a feather in their cap for "tough on crime"!

 

[calsdad]

Try reviewing this thread:

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4944

I recently bought a Glock 22 that was factor refurbished. The dealer I purchased from is - as far as I know - very familiar with the state laws in MA, and will not sell anything that is not on the AG's approved list. Now the Glock I bought, which should be legal to put PRE-BAN manufactured high cap mags in - came with 2 high cap mags.

The problem is that when I look at the thread you referenced, and I compare my mags to the pics in the thread - my mags look like they are POST-BAN.

I have also searched on Glocktalk - and I have searched on the web, and I read all the way thru the thread you referenced above, and quite frankly I can't make heads or tails out of whether my mags are post - or pre-ban. The mags themselves look to be brand new.

This gets even more complicated when you consider that the mags themselves can be rebuilt - I did find a seller who was selling brand new new outer cases for the high cap mags - and there was an alleged letter from the BATF that says that pre-ban high cap mags can be rebuilt. So lets say I "rebuild" an old high cap mag, what "old" parts do I have to keep? Pretty much anything in the mag is subject to breakage and is a potential replacement candidate. Where is the break point on what I can - and can't replace on a "pre-ban" mag?

The whole damn thing is so freakin confusing that I can't see how I could possibly comply with the law. My only option as I see it is to just get rid of the high cap mags or store them in another state. But this is not the point - the law is setup in a way such that I am utterly unable to comply with it seeing as how I can't make heads or tails as to what is legal.

 

[drgrant]

This gets even more complicated when you consider that the mags themselves can be rebuilt - I did find a seller who was selling brand new new outer cases for the high cap mags - and there was an alleged letter from the BATF that says that pre-ban high cap mags can be rebuilt.

Remember that in this case whatever the BATFE says is pretty much
irrelevant, because MA law does not duplicate the old federal regs in this
regard. If it did, this thread would not exist because it would be way too
easy to use the unmarked mag end around. (According to the feds, under
the old AWB, absence of LEO markings was "good enough" to prove that
magazines are indeed pre ban. ) None of this matters in MA, where
determination of provenance is not clearly delineated, as it is not adopted
from federal law. There's not even a test case, really. (There may never
be one, unless a DA/prosecutor gets really ambitious, or the law changes for the
worse and makes ownership of any "large capacity" mag illegal outright. )

-Mike