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Manchester-by-the-Sea man arrested for stockpiling weapons and ammunition
- Thread starter PaulD
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Atleast the public defender has made several points!
The weapons batons and knives were probably not illegal
The police werre not aware of the context of statements made by him to his wife
The search warrent dd not list an active threat
His guns and ammo were legal and perhaps the tear gas as well
Just a sad situation and total travesty of justice!![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
![[sad]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/004.gif "Sad [sad]")
The weapons batons and knives were probably not illegal
The police werre not aware of the context of statements made by him to his wife
The search warrent dd not list an active threat
His guns and ammo were legal and perhaps the tear gas as well
Just a sad situation and total travesty of justice!
richc
NES Member
"The hearing is scheduled to continue tomorrow morning. Girard, who remains held without bail, initially pleaded not guilty on multiple weapons charges during his arraignment last Wednesday."
Why use the word "initially"... he plead not guilty... period. The word initially leads one to believe that he subsequently changed his plea.
The press is out to hang this guy and ruin his life when there is a high probability he has done absolutely nothing illegal. WTF???
Again more of the same sensationalized reporting...
ARRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Why use the word "initially"... he plead not guilty... period. The word initially leads one to believe that he subsequently changed his plea.
The press is out to hang this guy and ruin his life when there is a high probability he has done absolutely nothing illegal. WTF???
Again more of the same sensationalized reporting...
ARRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Finally someone mentions the "grenades" may not be the explosives that other articles have made them out to be, and that they furthermore could be legal. It also goes on to say that none of the other weapons seized from his house were illegal.
I'm pretty sure the "indoor shooting range" section of the law that is posted earlier in this thread said it was ok with the consent of the owner. If he says he gave himself consent to shoot there, that would make the charge of discharging a firearm within 500ft invalid.
I'm glad there is at least one paper trying to publish the truth. The police are really trying to stick it to this guy. Unfortunately, whether or not the man is found guilty, the Chief of Police has the power to screw him over.
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And low bail at that....
HooVooLoo
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Because infernal machines scare people. Murder is so passe' now that judges are numb to the idea of it.
Who knows.. next thing you know folks will be worried about police seizing their guns or holding them without bail. We all know *that* would never happen to anyone or any group.
It seems every time a situation like this occurs the person in question has "hand grenades". What's the deal with that? I would think it is almost imposable to acquire a hand grenade.
Are these pd's simply confiscating dummy grenades that are available in any army navy store?
Are these pd's simply confiscating dummy grenades that are available in any army navy store?
F
Finalygotabeltfed
Yes, that IS the case 99.99% of the time......it makes good press and looks good on a police report.
I've not in my lifetime ever seen one case of this nature where an actual HE frag grenade was in the possession of the person arrested.
Not that I'm too interested in them to begin with, but that's one reason I'll never buy a novelty dummy grenade. If the police ever did a raid/search, that's most of what the media will focus on. When it eventually is revealed that it was a dummy, the media won't be able to be bothered publishing any corrections, and that's all the sheeple will ever remember... the evil crazy neighbor with the grenade.
99.9% of the time the grenades are dummies. Once in a great while someone will find a real grenade, but those are usually WWII/Korea/Vietnam bringbacks that some guy decided to stow in a basement somewhere, and then someone else finds it later on.
The guys like this never have real grenades. Even David Koresh didn't have real ones... although he supposedly had dummies he was trying to turn into real grenades, which was part of the ATF mole's report on him.
-Mike
The pics they showed when this first broke looked like they were fairly modern. Now, the question....if they are simply gas....are they illegal?
Since this thread is quite long, and no one yet managing to post the law that was broken by them (someone is usually very quick here to post the relevant law), I would take a guess they are legal. That said, it is actually a bit of a surprise to me given this is MA... although I've never looked into the issue before... I have no interest in them -- what's the point of having a tear gas grenade anyway if you're an average Joe? If I'm attacked by a group, I don't think tossing a little tear gas canister is going to do the job. (Don't misunderstand... I'm not saying they should be illegal... I just don't see why your typical survivalist would have much use for them.)
So, owning guns gives "some indication" of something, according to this guy's opinion? Don't police own guns?
I wonder if this could be used to launch a career. Imagine if the public defender were successful here?
Anyone going? I know a lot of people went to a few trials/hearings in the past, somewhere down towards the Cape, I think. Does GOAL send somebody to keep track and take notes or offer guidance?
Well....those packs of Jehovah's witnesses can be relentless
MisterHappy
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In the quick picture that was on the local news when all this started, the grenades appeared to be "Rubber ball grenades" (This ID is taken from an old S&W Chemical Division poster on Crowd Control weapons) that don't have a metal exterior - therefore, "less lethal".
As to whether these are grenades, in the broadest sense of the word, I'd have to say "yes"(that's how they're sold my the manufacturer) ...not sure, however, if they make the cut for infernal devices....but that seems to be a muddy part, so I don't feel too bad.
We all know the laws on guns and rifles and he was licensed. (No Laws Broken) No mention of modifications either
As far as storage goes for shotguns on the board and ammo in the cans. we haven't seen enough detail to determine if they could get him on an improper storage charge.
The batons and the double edges knives in accordance with the actual law posted were legal as long as he wasn't carrying on himself or his person or vehicle
His clothing or other gear would not be illegal to own except for body armor while committing a crime or felony
The law was posted on an indoor range and it was his attic rather than a basement range (Big Question on location)
The grenades are being referred to as an infernal device and who the hell knows how to define that catch all description. If he bought them legally, who they going after next?
God forbid, he had a flaregun but he also had a boat and these are common for boat owners
Did they find a homemade silencer? Who the hell knows what they since most of the facts are missing and the media and yes the police are using scare tactics to hang teh guy in the media.
In short, this guy should not be in jail and his rights are being violated in his own home. No threats were made, no reason for the ATF or the cops to enter his home and arrest him based on what we have read. Worse and most of all, they will more than likely find some piss ant abstract law that doesn't actually apply but might stick and get him to plead on it. We will hear something from the media to the effect that he is no longer a menace to society because they have siezed all his guns and ammo and he will attent some sort of treatment program along with complience of a restraining order issued by the spouse. What a total joke!
As far as storage goes for shotguns on the board and ammo in the cans. we haven't seen enough detail to determine if they could get him on an improper storage charge.
The batons and the double edges knives in accordance with the actual law posted were legal as long as he wasn't carrying on himself or his person or vehicle
His clothing or other gear would not be illegal to own except for body armor while committing a crime or felony
The law was posted on an indoor range and it was his attic rather than a basement range (Big Question on location)
The grenades are being referred to as an infernal device and who the hell knows how to define that catch all description. If he bought them legally, who they going after next?
God forbid, he had a flaregun but he also had a boat and these are common for boat owners
Did they find a homemade silencer? Who the hell knows what they since most of the facts are missing and the media and yes the police are using scare tactics to hang teh guy in the media.
In short, this guy should not be in jail and his rights are being violated in his own home. No threats were made, no reason for the ATF or the cops to enter his home and arrest him based on what we have read. Worse and most of all, they will more than likely find some piss ant abstract law that doesn't actually apply but might stick and get him to plead on it. We will hear something from the media to the effect that he is no longer a menace to society because they have siezed all his guns and ammo and he will attent some sort of treatment program along with complience of a restraining order issued by the spouse. What a total joke!
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Titan
Banned
Someone posted the precise definition of 'infernal device' but it is derived from the word 'inferno'.
Basically anything that explodes or creates a fire will be considered an infernal device.
I'm quite sure this even includes 'tear gas' grenades (if they want it to) because they're explosive in nature and some have the added risk of creating a fire.
MisterHappy
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Well, when even dry ice in a 2-liter bottle can be considered a bad thing, I'm sure that you're right.....
Of course, that's the opposite of infernal!![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
Of course, that's the opposite of infernal!
namedpipes
NES Member
Well, when even dry ice in a 2-liter bottle can be considered a bad thing, I'm sure that you're right.....
You, um, don't happen to know the statute of limitations on that...
Which means they can stick that law to virtually anyone they want to. For all we know they're legitimately charging him with possession of an infernal machine because he had a book of matches, a lighter, a piece of flint, or God forbid, a Duraflame log. The definition in the law is so broad that anything whatsoever that can create or spread a flame can be cinsiddered an infernal machine. The law is written to screw people, and from every article I've read about this incident, that's exactly what's happening here.
Having a public defender does not automatically mean you're getting stuck with some hack. The lack of public defenders in MA has caused some serious delays in cases getting to trial and, in some instances, criminals walking because there was no one to represent them. Few lawyers are willing to be a salaried public defender making nothing in comparison to what they can make on their own or as part of a larger practice. To try and solve this problem, the State has thousands of private attorneys that have been certified (I do not know what that entails) to accept appointments as public defenders. These private attorneys can then bill the state for their services up to a maximum amount per year. It sometimes works out that an individual facing charges could be represented by an outstanding attorney that is supplementing their private practice by being a part time public defender.
Burgermeister
NES Member
+1. I have a friend who is a top-notch criminal defense attorney. His opinion is that you never "dump" a public defender until you know who it is. He mentioned the list of certified PDs that cb1 referenced and said that getting a PD is luck of the draw....you might get a mediocre public defender or you could get a very good public defender whose name came up.
Titan
Banned
True, of course, but whether a good PD or a bad PD, you'll likely get only the effort that the PD rate allows. You won't likely get the same defense you would get if you could afford the same lawyer's normal rates.
KBCraig
NES Member
Lord help him if he was a reloader, especially if he also had black powder.
A judge ruled yesterday that a Manchester man, arrested last week on multiple weapon charges, is too dangerous to be released on bail.
Gregory Girard, 45, of 23B Bridge St. is now being held pending a probable cause hearing set for March 15.
Salem District Court Judge Richard Mori's decision comes after the dangerousness hearing that started on Tuesday afternoon was suspended until yesterday; between both sessions, the hearing lasted about 41/2 hours, according to Steve O'Connell, a spokesman for the Essex County district attorney's office.
Girard was arrested the night of Feb. 9 after Manchester police were notified by the Boston office of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of a tip that Girard had possession of explosive hand-grenade devices along with a cache of other weapons.
That night, Girard was specifically charged with illegally possessing tear gas and explosive pepper ball canisters, along with two police fixed batons and two police expandable batons. He was charged later in the week with having double-edged knives and modified gun silencers after the police requested further search warrants.
But police who took Girard into custody in a raid on his condominium on Feb. 9 also found approximately 20 weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition inside for which Girard was licensed.
There was also a large collection of military camouflage clothing, knives, several pairs of handcuffs, bulletproof vests and helmets, a large supply of medicine, and six months' worth of food supplies stored throughout the home.
Plus, police found an approximately 30-foot firing range in his attic, littered with shell casings and bolstered with ballistics backing.
Given that, he was also charged with discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling.
Prosecutor Assistant District Attorney Michelle DeCourcey asked Manchester police Detective Richard Newton for details about the night Girard was arrested and the weapons police seized. She also asked Newton about his background and education when it comes to police work.
Defense counsel Rebecca Whitehill argued during the Tuesday session that many of the weapons police say are illegal — and based Girard's arrest on — are actually legal and that the Manchester Police Department hasn't sought professional evaluation of the weapons. The ATF and other agencies left the night of the raid, before determining the hand-grenade devices were actually grenades.
Newton confirmed that there is no clear evidence that the grenades are explosive, and the department hasn't had any consulting on the devices to date. They will eventually be brought to the state police weapons lab, according to police.
Whitehill said the grenades could just be legal smoke bombs and not explosives. She also questioned the Police Department's revocation of Girard's license to carry these weapons based on unconfirmed information of illegal weapons being held in his house, and said the batons and double-edged knives are only illegal when a person is carrying them.
To prove her point, she asked Newton if and how many weapons he owns. Newton confirmed that he owns weapons and told the judge how much ammunition he has. This point, Whitehill said, was to show just because he owns weapons doesn't mean Girard is dangerous.
Girard's wife, Kristine Girard, also has a license to carry weapons and Whitehill stated that some of the weapons could be hers. Whitehill also said there is no evidence that Kristine Girard wasn't the one shooting in the attic.
DeCourcey also asked Newton about his contact with Girard's wife, who called police the night before police arrested her husband. Although she filed a report with police, it was a friend of hers that tipped off ATF.
According to police, Kristine Girard said that, while her husband hadn't threatened her, she was afraid to return home after an argument.
She said her husband had recently told her, "Don't talk to people, shoot them instead," and "It's fine to shoot people in the head because traitors deserve it," according to police reports.
In regard to the comments that Girard's wife made, Whitehill said police don't know what context that statements was made. She said the request for the search warrant did not indicate that there were no active threats.
During yesterday's continuation of the hearing, Whitehill said Kristine Girard has filed for divorce and questioned her motive for calling police about her husband.
Manchester Patrolman Kevin Clary was also questioned
Gregory Girard, 45, of 23B Bridge St. is now being held pending a probable cause hearing set for March 15.
Salem District Court Judge Richard Mori's decision comes after the dangerousness hearing that started on Tuesday afternoon was suspended until yesterday; between both sessions, the hearing lasted about 41/2 hours, according to Steve O'Connell, a spokesman for the Essex County district attorney's office.
Girard was arrested the night of Feb. 9 after Manchester police were notified by the Boston office of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of a tip that Girard had possession of explosive hand-grenade devices along with a cache of other weapons.
That night, Girard was specifically charged with illegally possessing tear gas and explosive pepper ball canisters, along with two police fixed batons and two police expandable batons. He was charged later in the week with having double-edged knives and modified gun silencers after the police requested further search warrants.
But police who took Girard into custody in a raid on his condominium on Feb. 9 also found approximately 20 weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition inside for which Girard was licensed.
There was also a large collection of military camouflage clothing, knives, several pairs of handcuffs, bulletproof vests and helmets, a large supply of medicine, and six months' worth of food supplies stored throughout the home.
Plus, police found an approximately 30-foot firing range in his attic, littered with shell casings and bolstered with ballistics backing.
Given that, he was also charged with discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling.
Prosecutor Assistant District Attorney Michelle DeCourcey asked Manchester police Detective Richard Newton for details about the night Girard was arrested and the weapons police seized. She also asked Newton about his background and education when it comes to police work.
Defense counsel Rebecca Whitehill argued during the Tuesday session that many of the weapons police say are illegal — and based Girard's arrest on — are actually legal and that the Manchester Police Department hasn't sought professional evaluation of the weapons. The ATF and other agencies left the night of the raid, before determining the hand-grenade devices were actually grenades.
Newton confirmed that there is no clear evidence that the grenades are explosive, and the department hasn't had any consulting on the devices to date. They will eventually be brought to the state police weapons lab, according to police.
Whitehill said the grenades could just be legal smoke bombs and not explosives. She also questioned the Police Department's revocation of Girard's license to carry these weapons based on unconfirmed information of illegal weapons being held in his house, and said the batons and double-edged knives are only illegal when a person is carrying them.
To prove her point, she asked Newton if and how many weapons he owns. Newton confirmed that he owns weapons and told the judge how much ammunition he has. This point, Whitehill said, was to show just because he owns weapons doesn't mean Girard is dangerous.
Girard's wife, Kristine Girard, also has a license to carry weapons and Whitehill stated that some of the weapons could be hers. Whitehill also said there is no evidence that Kristine Girard wasn't the one shooting in the attic.
DeCourcey also asked Newton about his contact with Girard's wife, who called police the night before police arrested her husband. Although she filed a report with police, it was a friend of hers that tipped off ATF.
According to police, Kristine Girard said that, while her husband hadn't threatened her, she was afraid to return home after an argument.
She said her husband had recently told her, "Don't talk to people, shoot them instead," and "It's fine to shoot people in the head because traitors deserve it," according to police reports.
In regard to the comments that Girard's wife made, Whitehill said police don't know what context that statements was made. She said the request for the search warrant did not indicate that there were no active threats.
During yesterday's continuation of the hearing, Whitehill said Kristine Girard has filed for divorce and questioned her motive for calling police about her husband.
Manchester Patrolman Kevin Clary was also questioned
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