Man charged with brandishing gun in Milton road rage case

[06LemansC6]

The flip side is it could go another way. If he drove off the other guy could have followed thinking he succeeded in intimidating the gun owner. It could have made the situation worse. Is it something I'd do? Doubtful, but I wasn't there.

I'll bet the bat guy thinks twice before brandishing a weapon of his own ever again.

 

[dagwag77]

The flip side is it could go another way. If he drove off the other guy could have followed thinking he succeeded in intimidating the gun owner. It could have made the situation worse. Is it something I'd do? Doubtful, but I wasn't there.

I'll bet the bat guy thinks twice before brandishing a weapon of his own ever again.

If he follows you, call PD/ drive to the PD! Not your turn to escalate the confrontation

And yes, I dont think hes going to be pulling bats on people anytime soon, unless hes a slow learner.

 

[dedmeat]

he was within his right imho, he showed an attaker that he had superior defense,,,, nooone was hurt , he went on his way without getting dead, noone was hurt, whats the fn problem? i guess society had become so fn tightassed that we cannot defend ourselves, even here on a gunowners forum. wtf is wrong with you people that we cannot even use our guns as a deterrent?

 

[RI_John]

he was within his right imho, he showed an attaker that he had superior defense,,,, nooone was hurt , he went on his way without getting dead, noone was hurt, whats the fn problem? i guess society had become so fn tightassed that we cannot defend ourselves, even here on a gunowners forum. wtf is wrong with you people that we cannot even use our guns as a deterrent?

Unfortunately, you live in Massachusetts, not a John Wayne movie.

 

[M1911]

i'll give you the fact that he could have and did drive off,,, thats great,, i am happy that noone was hurt.... but,,, was showing superior defence a felony? as a law abiding gun owner,all tests passed , was he breaking the law?

Yes, he was breaking the law. Are you about to die? If so, you can draw your gun. If you are not about to die, then you can't.

i think not. he was within his right

Our legal system thinks otherwise.

dedmeat, if you haven't already, I strongly suggest that you take LFI-1. It will open your eyes about how seldom the law allows you to draw your gun. If you have taken LFI-1, then I suggest that you reread your notes. In MA, as in most states, you have a duty to retreat.

 

[dagwag77]

he was within his right imho, he showed an attaker that he had superior defense,,,, nooone was hurt , he went on his way without getting dead, noone was hurt, whats the fn problem? i guess society had become so fn tightassed that we cannot defend ourselves, even here on a gunowners forum. wtf is wrong with you people that we cannot even use our guns as a deterrent?

While I agree with you on many points, I carry myself within the, albeit unfortunate, confines of the law. (I am not a "keyboard commando" either...) Yes, the gun is there for self defense, but our laws tell us when we can and when we cannot use them. If you're not able to follow those laws, you shouldn't have a gun. If you feel strongly about the laws, make an effort to change them or move somewhere where the laws suit you better.

Edit: M1911 posted while I was typing. What he said... can't say it better than that...

 

[M1911]

The flip side is it could go another way. If he drove off the other guy could have followed thinking he succeeded in intimidating the gun owner. It could have made the situation worse.

If he follows, dial 911 and drive towards the police station. Jeeze.

 

[M1911]

Unfortunately, you live in Massachusetts, not a John Wayne movie.

+6. Yup.

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

he was within his right imho, he showed an attaker that he had superior defense,,,, nooone was hurt , he went on his way without getting dead, noone was hurt, whats the fn problem? i guess society had become so fn tightassed that we cannot defend ourselves, even here on a gunowners forum. wtf is wrong with you people that we cannot even use our guns as a deterrent?

If batman saw gunmans holster and quickly pulled a pistol out of his pocket holster or iwb holder (i know there was no report that he had a gun but i am making a point), shot and killed him because gunman wasn't expecting batman to have a gun, would that have been a deescalation? Heck no.

That is just one of a million things that could have gone wrong. When gunman pulled his holder he really does not know what the next step will be. He is HOPEING it will end it, but he does not know this for a fact.

Pushing your foot down on the peddle does not mean your weak. It means you want to make it home to your family in one piece without having killed someone or without the fancy bracelets.

It has nothing to do with thinking you have the right. It has everything to do with the fact you have a chance to get out of it, within the confines of the law, without showing your piece, upping the ante, killing someone or being killed yourself.

 

[Lynne]

wtf is wrong with you people that we cannot even use our guns as a deterrent?

Please read below carefully dear.

Unfortunately, you live in Massachusetts, not a John Wayne movie.

Bold is mine to stress the point.

You want to keep your license and guns? You don't do something that someone can point to you and say "He pulled his gun on me!!" Then the police ask you "Did you show him your gun?" As soon as you say "Yes" they don't hear the "but".

 

[Blitz1]

I'm wondering if the guy that displayed his firearm is a user/member here. Probably not.

Are we missing anyone lately?

 

[dagwag77]

If batman saw gunmans holster and quickly pulled a pistol out of his pocket holster or iwb holder (i know there was no report that he had a gun but i am making a point), shot and killed him because gunman wasn't expecting batman to have a gun, would that have been a deescalation? Heck no.

That is just one of a million things that could have gone wrong. When gunman pulled his holder he really does not know what the next step will be. He is HOPEING it will end it, but he does not know this for a fact.

Pushing your foot down on the peddle does not mean your weak. It means you want to make it home to your family in one piece without having killed someone or without the fancy bracelets.

It has nothing to do with thinking you have the right. It has everything to do with the fact you have a chance to get out of it, within the confines of the law, without showing your piece, upping the ante, killing someone or being killed yourself.

well said, +1

You want to keep your license and guns? You don't do something that someone can point to you and say "He pulled his gun on me!!" Then the police ask you "Did you show him your gun?" As soon as you say "Yes" they don't hear the "but".

Very true. Waving it around without being ready and legally able to use it will end up in jail.

 

[terraformer]

You want to keep your license and guns? You don't do something that someone can point to you and say "He pulled his gun on me!!" Then the police ask you "Did you show him your gun?" As soon as you say "Yes" they don't hear the "but".

I would say that even in other states, this type of behavior is technically illegal. Although in other states, the attitudes of law enforcement (particularly prosecutors) may be more deferential to justice and not persecution.

 

[terraformer]

I'm wondering if the guy that displayed his firearm is a user/member here. Probably not.

Are we missing anyone lately?

For a while there you were quiet. But we all know better and any screwup of yours would either be made a state secret or be all over the national news 24x7.

 

[CRSIII]

This thread got me thinking.
I bet if you did like Clint in Grand Torino (make your hand like a pistol) and you were a LTC holder in ma, you wouldn't be for long.

 

[Lynne]

This thread got me thinking.
I bet if you did like Clint in Grand Torino (make your hand like a pistol) and you were a LTC holder in ma, you wouldn't be for long.

If it got reported, you would most likely become "an unsuitable individual".

 

[jcr]

If he follows, dial 911 and drive towards the police station. Jeeze.

As I said, that's not much of a plan if you don't have a cell phone.

I know where the Police Station is in town, but I don't in any of the adjacent towns, let alone some random place away from here.

If pay phones still exist, it might be risky to stop and make a call with the guy following.

 

[dagwag77]

As I said, that's not much of a plan if you don't have a cell phone.

I know where the Police Station is in town, but I don't in any of the adjacent towns, let alone some random place away from here.

If pay phones still exist, it might be risky to stop and make a call with the guy following.

Then pull into somewhere public. If its late at night, pull into an open store with someone there, a witness at minimum, more importantly - someone with a phone to call 9-1-1. Gas station, store 24, something....

 

[Blitz1]

For a while there you were quiet. But we all know better and any screwup of yours would either be made a state secret or be all over the national news 24x7.

 

[Lamina]

No. He was not in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury, so he was not justified in displaying his gun.

just wondering... don't you cops espouse a 21' rule? how is it that cops are taught that someone who is a potential threat to them can cause them harm if they are under 21' out, but a dude in front of a civilian waving a baseball bat doesn't warrant escalation of force?

cause when the dude starts playing T-ball with your head, now it's time to try and draw, right?

god, this country is f***ed.

 

[RI_John]

just wondering... don't you cops espouse a 21' rule? how is it that cops are taught that someone who is a potential threat to them can cause them harm if they are under 21' out, but a dude in front of a civilian waving a baseball bat doesn't warrant escalation of force?

cause when the dude starts playing T-ball with your head, now it's time to try and draw, right?

god, this country is f***ed.

Why is everyone forgetting the fact they were BOTH IN CARS. They both chose to stop and jack their jaws at each other FROM THEIR CARS. Then one dude, sitting in his car, HOLDS UP a mini souvenir bat and the other guy, not blocked in, sitting in a running car, feels his LIFE IS THREATENED??? Puh-lease.

It was a game of "Who has the bigger penis?" and they both lost. Let's not turn this story into "Crazed attacker swinging baseball bat"

 

[namedpipes]

Bottom line, both guys were stupid to do what they did from start to finish.

The consequences of STUPID ought to be holding the idiots up to ridicule. Maybe making them do something helpful like picking up roadside trash or volunteer at a hospital.

In this case, STUPID is what, two men probably going to prison and losing their rights for life, not to mention the two families that will be without dad for a while.

All the talk about 21', assault is assault, it was only 18", but he only held it by the strap, etc etc etc ad nauseum. Play stupid games, you're supposed to get a stupid prize, not 10 years in the slammer! WTF?

OK I'm done. Need my damned coffee now. BLITZ1! XL, lite & sweet! Thank you I'll be here all the week.

 

[RI_John]

Bottom line, both guys were stupid to do what they did from start to finish.

The consequences of STUPID ought to be holding the idiots up to ridicule. Maybe making them do something helpful like picking up roadside trash or volunteer at a hospital.

In this case, STUPID is what, two men probably going to prison and losing their rights for life, not to mention the two families that will be without dad for a while.

All the talk about 21', assault is assault, it was only 18", but he only held it by the strap, etc etc etc ad nauseum. Play stupid games, you're supposed to get a stupid prize, not 10 years in the slammer! WTF?

OK I'm done. Need my damned coffee now. BLITZ1! XL, lite & sweet! Thank you I'll be here all the week.

To be clear, my point was and only is that the guy didn't have any cause to show his weapon. Period. I've never said either should go to jail. Were I on the jury, I'd nullify it for either of them.

 

[namedpipes]

Mine was more a collective response to almost 150 posts analyzing what happened and how each person would do it different and whether the actions were justified...

Not so much directed at you. Sorry.

eta - I completely agree on the jury comment. But you or I would never get on THAT jury!

 

[M1911]

just wondering... don't you cops espouse a 21' rule? how is it that cops are taught that someone who is a potential threat to them can cause them harm if they are under 21' out, but a dude in front of a civilian waving a baseball bat doesn't warrant escalation of force?

1) I'm not a cop.

2) The article implies that both drivers were STILL IN THEIR CARS. For batman to have been an immediate threat, he would have had to get out of his car and approach the other car. You can not draw your gun unless you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury, and there is no safe way for you to get out of dodge. If you are in your car, he is in his, and he is holding a bat, explain to me exactly how you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury?

3) You may not like it, but in MA you are required to retreat from a confrontation if it is safe to do so. In this case, the fellow with the gun was able to retreat from the situation by driving away. He should have done so before pulling the gun.

4) It is far better never to have an encounter with a gun and then the police, than to have one and be "victorious." Park your ego and drive away. That way you don't get involved in police, lawyers, and possibly jail.

 

[kevin9]

2) The article implies that both drivers were STILL IN THEIR CARS. For batman to have been an immediate threat, he would have had to get out of his car and approach the other car. You can not draw your gun unless you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury, and there is no safe way for you to get out of dodge. If you are in your car, he is in his, and he is holding a bat, explain to me exactly how you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury?

+1
Some seem to think that there's some kind of a right not to have someone make threatening speech or gestures at you even if there is no ability for said person to immediately carry out those threats. IMNSHO that strikes me to be somewhat akin to the non-existent right to not be offended by someones speech.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

In this case, STUPID is what, two men probably going to prison and losing their rights for life, not to mention the two families that will be without dad for a while.

Time for a reality check.

The chances of either party doing time in stir is about zero, unless one has a serious record. The more likely possibilities include a plea bargain with a no jail time sentence; a CWOF (if the gun owner is really lucky); or, if it's taken to trial, a no jail time sentence. The possibility of jail time, and the felony label on the charge greatly increase the leverage that can be applied to obtain a plea bargain, as well as the amount the defendant will be willing to pay for legal fees rather than "just take what is being offered". The person with the bat has far less to fear than the person with the gun.

The bigger risks to the person with the gun are the possibility of a felony record; being unable to get an LTC again in MA (even if not convicted); legal fees and possible adverse impact on his current and future employment. (No, there is no "right not to be fired" if you are charged but found not guilty of a crime). Even with the best possible outcome for the gun owner, he's CORI and Question 10 screwed for life.

Linda Hamilton got screwed by the system but even in that case, the outcome was a felony record and a $400 fine - not time in the big house.

 

[Lamina]

1) I'm not a cop.

2) The article implies that both drivers were STILL IN THEIR CARS. For batman to have been an immediate threat, he would have had to get out of his car and approach the other car. You can not draw your gun unless you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury, and there is no safe way for you to get out of dodge. If you are in your car, he is in his, and he is holding a bat, explain to me exactly how you are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury?

3) You may not like it, but in MA you are required to retreat from a confrontation if it is safe to do so. In this case, the fellow with the gun was able to retreat from the situation by driving away. He should have done so before pulling the gun.

4) It is far better never to have an encounter with a gun and then the police, than to have one and be "victorious." Park your ego and drive away. That way you don't get involved in police, lawyers, and possibly jail.

reading comprehension fail on my part then.

still, so many times I see people getting pigpiled on for "drawing but not using" as if thats an acceptable standard.

I dunno. I'm too tired to get into this now. tonight after I've slept maybe I'll try again.

 

[M1911]

still, so many times I see people getting pigpiled on for "drawing but not using" as if thats an acceptable standard.

There is no law that says that you must shoot it you draw. But if you are not legally justified in shooting, then you are likely not legally justified in drawing either.

The legal consequences of using force can be very severe. Legally, you pretty much have to be out of all options before you turn to a gun.

 

[Half Cocked]

There is no law that says that you must shoot it you draw. But if you are not legally justified in shooting, then you are likely not legally justified in drawing either.

But.....But.......What if..........