James Yeager may have ALS

[Rob Boudrie]

Sorry, but there is no reason to put a person down range, between two targets. That’s a tragedy waiting to happen. There are many, many instructors who have served in top tier units and none of them do that.

There are certain types of training, like shoot house team training, where added risk must be taken. But your basic square range concealed carry class? Nope, that’s an unnecessary risk.

The fact that students did this and no one refused, even if it meant walking away from the class, shows how bad things can be done with the responsibility is diffused over a group and "everyone is doing it".

Unless you have been there (Paid big $$ to attend a class taught by someone whose sighting of the elephant qualifies him as a hard as nail uber cool instructor) and make the call to defy the authority figure running the class and walk, claiming you would do so rings hollow.

 

[M1911]

The fact that students did this and no one refused, even if it meant walking away from the class, shows how bad things can be done with the responsibility is diffused over a group and "everyone is doing it".

Unless you have been there (Paid big $$ to attend a class taught by someone whose sighting of the elephant qualifies him as a hard as nail uber cool instructor) and make the call to defy the authority figure running the class and walk, claiming you would do so rings hollow.

I understand what you are saying. Having seen the videos and considered what happened, I hope I would walk out if something similar happened at a class I was attending.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I understand what you are saying. Having seen the videos and considered what happened, I hope I would walk out if something similar happened at a class I was attending.

I am impressed that you said "hope" rather than "would".

Keep in mind, you would be doing so after the instructor has the majority of the class believe that they are training at a "higher level" and that only "real operators" rather than mall operators(*) can perform at this higher professional level. Yeah, that's right - feel like you are a true seasoned professional because you shoot with humans downrange near your targets. It's a setup to make you feel like "I guess I'm just not ready for this advanced stuff" if you act reasonably and responsibly and withdraw. It takes a lot of self resolve, independent thinking and resistance to groupthink and deference to authority to walk.

(*) - The term "mall operator" may need to be rethunk in a post-Dicken reality.

 

[M1911]

Yup, it is a setup for lots of peer pressure.

 

[In God We Trust]

Oh shut up. He’s addressed that numerous times and has linked his detailed report. Yes, he f***ed up.

As far as his tactical training, yes, he taught gun fighting. Some people realize range berms won’t be there for a gun fight, some people don’t.

I’ve done lots of legit training that violates “tHe rUlEs” and while yes, it’s dangerous, so is a gun fight. I know nothing about Yeagers training, so I won’t comment on it.

I get annoyed when people MMQ a combat encounter however. James was one man and his actions alone should not have determined the outcome of the situation.

I’ve said this before, but when you take enemy fire, the FIRST thing they train you to do is take cover. It seems like he did that.

The second thing is to return fire as long as you have a basic idea where the enemy is. Don’t know if he knew where the fire was coming from. When I was a new private, I once shot at our patrols point man (in training) because I thought he was the enemy rushing us. It’s the fog of war.

He may not have known his buddy was hit. He may have thought his buddy had taken cover already. You don’t have to be a shit bag to make mistakes.

 

[M1911]

I’ve done lots of legit training that violates “tHe rUlEs” and while yes, it’s dangerous, so is a gun fight. I know nothing about Yeagers training, so I won’t comment on it.

There are certain types of training that require taking additional risks - for example, team training around vehicles, practicing getting out of the vehicle, getting rounds down range, and moving around teammates. Yes, that breaks traditional rules and increases risks, but it does so with a purpose.

Putting an instructor downrange between targets so that he can take video of students shooting at the targets next to him? That’s a lot of added risk for no purpose. If you just want to get marketing material, put the damn camera on a trip, start it running, and then get back up range before you start the line shooting.

 

[Grendizer138]

I understand what you are saying. Having seen the videos and considered what happened, I hope I would walk out if something similar happened at a class I was attending.

I have taken classes at Tactical Response, and I would hope you’d walk out too. Win-win.

Guns are dangerous. Their training revolves around gunfighting, not shooting paper targets.

But I’m not interested in trying to change your mind; there are plenty of places for you to train at like Sig Academy where you can “look your gun into the holster” and other such nonsense.

 

[M1911]

I have taken classes at Tactical Response, and I would hope you’d walk out too. Win-win.

Guns are dangerous. Their training revolves around gunfighting, not shooting paper targets.

I’ve trained at Sig. And with Ayoob. And with Randy Cain. And Mike Seeklander. And others.

Putting an instructor downrange is stupid. It has no training value.

 

[M1911]

“Look your gun into your holster”.

The best instructors I’ve had have said ”listen to what I say, try it, and if it works for you, then keep it”. If you don’t agree with an instructor’s dogma, then don’t follow it.

For a cop, looking their gun into their holster is clearly a bad idea. For someone who isn’t a cop, that’s less clear. For someone who is not a cop, how often are they going to need to holster in a hurry while keeping their eyes on a bad guy?

 

[Grendizer138]

The best instructors I’ve had have said ”listen to what I say, try it, and if it works for you, then keep it”. If you don’t agree with an instructor’s dogma, then don’t follow it.

For a cop, looking their gun into their holster is clearly a bad idea. For someone who isn’t a cop, that’s less clear. For someone who is not a cop, how often are they going to need to holster in a hurry while keeping their eyes on a bad guy?

Mostly agree; but why would you take your eyes off your surroundings when you just fired your gun, cop or not?

“Look your gun into the holster” is legal tactics, and nothing more.

 

[M1911]

Mostly agree; but why would you take your eyes off your surroundings when you just fired your gun, cop or not?

“Look your gun into the holster” is legal tactics, and nothing more.

It reduces the chance of you not seeing something like a drawstring or your shirt fouling the holster. So it slightly reduces the chance of an AD.

You can make a similar argument about reloading. Should you look the magazine into the mag well or should you keep your eyes on the threat? My choice is to look the mag into the mag well because it is faster and less error prone and if I’m in a gunfight and need to reload then I need it reloaded right now. But the counter argument is equally valid.

 

[Grendizer138]

It reduces the chance of you not seeing something like a drawstring or your shirt fouling the holster. So it slightly reduces the chance of an AD.

You can make a similar argument about reloading. Should you look the magazine into the mag well or should you keep your eyes on the threat? My choice is to look the mag into the mag well because it is faster and less error prone and if I’m in a gunfight and need to reload then I need it reloaded right now. But the counter argument is equally valid.

You do you.

Edit: I was going to ask if you only plan on being in a gun fight in the daylight, but I don’t see a lot of value in debating at this point

 

[DJBrad]

Terrible disease. I was 19 when I became secondary caretaker for my dad who had limb onset ALS. For 4 long years he suffered. Only 48 years old. My maternal grandmother contracted bulbar onset ALS on the 3rd year of my dad’s battle. She passed within 1 year as it affects swallow and breathing at a faster rate. Thoroughly decimated our family and changed it forever.

 

[PappyM3]

James was the first one out of his vehicle to return fire from the rear of the vehicle. He moved away from that position because the person in the back seat was taking that position with his fully auto weapon.

He then ran to secondary cover, popping smoke and continued covering his team. The enemy was gone after the initial contact that had ended almost immediately after it started. It was a hit and run. They were simply attempting to suppress fire of an ambush that none of them saw.

Why didn’t they see it? Because “Johnno” the team leader was not watching his AO but instead was having “Camel” back up the rearward BMW with his door open because he dropped his “MCI” (cell phone) out the window. You can hear him say this and the door bell dinging. (MCI had the cell contract)

They never should have been stopped there. That was not James decision. Johnno should not have been dicking around ignoring his area of responsibility. James freely admits that he made a mistake when he tried to accelerate the vehicle thinking it was disabled, when in fact it was in neutral. He made a mistake in the heat of battle and moved to return fire.

The fact is if he had accelerated, he wound have left the other vehicles (the rest of his team) behind. All three KIAs were already mortally wounded. The hard-sided Mercedes was disabled and the driver of the rear BMW was dead. The insurgences were already leaving.

The fact is, that all three men were that were killed, were mortally wounded in the initial contact . In the video you see some fire later. This is the passenger of James vehicle squeezing off rounds as he dies. Johnno shrieks “stop firing!” Because he knows the insurgents have left and it is his own team member firing.

James then immediately moves to cover Johnno as Johnno renders aid to mortally wounded Jay Hunt.

They were operating in two soft sided vehicles and one hard sided vehicle. They were on what was termed “the most dangerous road in the world” at the time. The men killed were in the soft sided vehicles. This was not James decision. They were stopped for an extended time against SOP under Johnno’s orders, not James.

James freely admitted mistakes were made that day. I have yet to see one of his critics post a video of themselves under fire, in an ambush. The decisions that got people killed that day we’re not made by James they were made by Johnno and others above him.

He wasn’t the only one who messed up there, sure. And may he Rest In Peace. But your whole narrative is off.

You imply they stopped there because of a dropped cell phone. Maybe a cell phone was dropped, but that’s not why they stopped. They stopped because of a traffic jam. And what you describe him doing does not jive with the video and other accounts.

He was not qualified for the job he was doing. Being a cop in the US doesn’t make you capable of providing PSD in a war zone. That was a bad time period of PMCs hiring a whole lot of unqualified people. Sure, lots of people mess up during ambushes, but they don’t usually go on to proclaim gunfighting expertise and continue being an instructor. That is where I have an issue with his actions.

And no, you won’t see video of any of my responses to the ambushes I’ve fought through. Do you actually expect most people to have video cameras rolling on patrols? You act like anybody questioning him has never been in or won an engagement. A great many people questioning him have. Have you?

 

[T-Unit]

Yeager was an a**h*** and there is karma in him dying from ALS, even so he still had family and friends who will miss him and had to watch him degenerate all year long until he passed and it's those people for whom the bell tolls and we send our sympathies to.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Yeager was an a**h*** and there is karma in him dying from ALS, even so he still had family and friends who will miss him and had to watch him degenerate all year long until he passed and it's those people for whom the bell tolls and we send our sympathies to.

1. Perhaps
2. Nope

 

[Davidk]

Funny, with all the Yeager hate, he became on of the most, if not the most, successful instructor in the country. Tactical Response had over 6000 students a year.

 

[PappyM3]

Funny, with all the Yeager hate, he became on of the most, if not the most, successful instructor in the country. Tactical Response had over 6000 students a year.

That’s not a good thing.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

NOT about Yeager specifically...

There was an excellent comment by (I think Ben Stoger - at least it was a post on his instagram) that a lot of instructors that market "who they used to be" - elite military unit, sandbox participant, even down to local places playing the "retired LEO" card - which tells you nothing about their ability to shoot or teach. You never heard these people talking about placing top 10 in the USPSA handgun nationals, winning a 3 Gun championship, etc. They brag talk about who they were, what action they saw, etc. - not their current skill level or teaching.

Persons who cannot market themselves as "Having seen the elephant" can also make it in training, even getting LE/MIL contracts if they demonstrate world class shooting skills, like winning national championships put on by orgs like USPSA. Some do both - like MIke Seeklander who served as a fed than was a championship level shooting in his civilian life.

 

[M1911]

Seeklander is also a Marine vet.

 

[PappyM3]

NOT about Yeager specifically...

There was an excellent comment by (I think Ben Stoger - at least it was a post on his instagram) that a lot of instructors that market "who they used to be" - elite military unit, sandbox participant, even down to local places playing the "retired LEO" card - which tells you nothing about their ability to shoot or teach. You never heard these people talking about placing top 10 in the USPSA handgun nationals, winning a 3 Gun championship, etc. They brag talk about who they were, what action they saw, etc. - not their current skill level or teaching.

Persons who cannot market themselves as "Having seen the elephant" can also make it in training, even getting LE/MIL contracts if they demonstrate world class shooting skills, like winning national championships put on by orgs like USPSA. Some do both - like MIke Seeklander who served as a fed than was a championship level shooting in his civilian life.

Yup. And there are big differences between gunfighting tactics vs shooting and weapon manipulation techniques and procedures. There are a lot of quality civilian instructors like you mentioned teaching the latter. And that’s a great thing.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Seeklander is also a Marine vet.

Very nice guy as well, but I never knew he had a plan to kill me.

 

[Grendizer138]

NOT about Yeager specifically...

There was an excellent comment by (I think Ben Stoger - at least it was a post on his instagram) that a lot of instructors that market "who they used to be" - elite military unit, sandbox participant, even down to local places playing the "retired LEO" card - which tells you nothing about their ability to shoot or teach. You never heard these people talking about placing top 10 in the USPSA handgun nationals, winning a 3 Gun championship, etc. They brag talk about who they were, what action they saw, etc. - not their current skill level or teaching.

Persons who cannot market themselves as "Having seen the elephant" can also make it in training, even getting LE/MIL contracts if they demonstrate world class shooting skills, like winning national championships put on by orgs like USPSA. Some do both - like MIke Seeklander who served as a fed than was a championship level shooting in his civilian life.

This is getting retarded. Winning USPSA medals qualifies you to teach gun fighting?
Yeager listed the classes he’s taken and experience, and he designed a cirriculum around gunfighting as a martial art. He would encourage students to train elsewhere as well.

There’s really no value in debate. People that don’t like him will continue to slam him even having never trained with him. He wouldn’t give a f*** and I need to do the same.

 

[M1911]

Grandmasters in USPSA know quite a bit about how to shoot quickly and accurately. Which is why some of them, like Ben Stoeger and Rob Leatham, have trained top tier military units. More than a few top tier military compete in USPSA.

Mike Seeklander was a US Marine. He was a firearms instructor at FLETC. He was a federal Air Marshal. He is also an IDPA and USPSA Grandmaster. He knows how to shoot. He knows how to teach. He also knows something about gun fighting.

If either of us get in a gunfight with Rob Leatham, we’re going to lose.

 

[Grendizer138]

Grandmasters in USPSA know quite a bit about how to shoot quickly and accurately. Which is why some of them, like Ben Stoeger, have trained top tier military units. More than a few top tier military compete in USPSA.

Mike Seeklander was a US Marine. He was a firearms instructor at FLETC. He was a federal Air Marshal. He is also an IDPA and USPSA Grandmaster. He knows how to shoot. He knows how to teach. He also knows something about gun fighting.

If either of us get in a gunfight with Rob Leatham, we’re going to lose.

With respect to them, if they are the ones that taught you to look your gun into your holster, look at your mag while changing it, or approved putting gizmos like striker control plates on your carry gun, I’m a bit skeptical.

But again, no value in debating.

 

[M1911]

With respect to them, if they are the ones that taught you to look your gun into your holster, look at your mag while changing it, or approved putting gizmos like striker control plates on your carry gun, I’m a bit skeptical.

But again, no value in debating.

Have you ever seen a USPSA Grandmaster shoot? I have.

 

[Grendizer138]

Have you ever seen a USPSA Grandmaster shoot? I have.

Do you think Jerry Miculek can teach you how to shoot like Jerry Miculek?

 

[M1911]

Do you think Jerry Miculek can teach you how to shoot like Jerry Miculek?

I think Jerry Miculek can teach any shooter to be a better shooter.

 

[PappyM3]

This is getting retarded. Winning USPSA medals qualifies you to teach gun fighting?
Yeager listed the classes he’s taken and experience, and he designed a cirriculum around gunfighting as a martial art. He would encourage students to train elsewhere as well.

There’s really no value in debate. People that don’t like him will continue to slam him even having never trained with him. He wouldn’t give a f*** and I need to do the same.

The problem is Yeager had no qualifications to teach gunfighting in his curriculum.

 

[bfm]

Very nice guy as well, but I never knew he had a plan to kill me.

Shows you how good he was.