is the 12ga an option?

There is a reason they nicknamed shotguns "Street Sweepers" or "Riot guns"
3" mag 00 buck shells hold 15 30 caliber projectiles each.
For a pump, 5 in the tube + 1 in the chamber .
That's 90 projectiles at 1200 fps in the air in a couple of seconds if you practice.
I know some sneer at the shotguns because they just aren't "Cool " enough , but if your looking to mow the grass they are nothing to sneer at.
 
Jason m said:
Go back and look at Rittenhouse video's and replace AR with shotgun. Could he of managed the same shots with a higher recoil shotgun, pumping a shotgun even loading it on the fly like when he was running for his life. I can't say for sure as I am a big shotgun fan but I always lean towards a good battle riffle with 20+ rounds without thinking of a reload.

I can say the results of the impacts of his rounds would of been the same or worse for the 3 even the 4th ( black guy who had a vertical up round fly right past him ) but could he of held it toghether like he did.

We all think we will be standing in a perfect range position or somewhat comfortable shooting stance, again look at what was being done at a very short range to him and how he was shooting on his butt and back. 12g is a great tool just cant say in this enviroment.

Crowd dispersal I think either one is fine, fighting on your back like he was I would want a light recoil and a one shot kill firearm like he had, just my 2 cent's.
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Only with a top of the line Winchester SXP Defender would he be able to pull off a procedure of that caliber, brother!
 
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Twigg said:
I got no issues with a 12 gauge pump for stopping a mob aim at the ground 50’ out and let that buckshot bounce it’s merry way into the mob. They’ll stop. Survivors will drag themselves away. We practiced this technique a couple of times at the Point Mugu range when I was with MCB-40 back in the ‘70’s awesome watching the Ricochet’s in the sand knowing NOTHING’s coming through that.
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A line of people with semiauto mag fed shotguns would be horrific. Like a war crime.
 
Atlantis said:
Let’s be generous and assume you mean a mossberg 590A1. You can choose a known entity ammo wise and run 8+1, or run mini shells and get 16+1.

How many of those images have you seen where the mob was 20+ individuals. How comfortable are you reloading/hand loading your tube? How comfortable are you working the action when engaged up close with multiple attackers grabbing at your gun.

standard capacity box mags, semi auto, carbine length. Sidearm for backup. 12g is great for keeping in strategic locations around your home for HD. Not an ideal weapon if isolated and fighting a crowd.
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So This. ^

Shotties are great as team support weapons when accompanying other team members with ARs/AKs, who have your back while you're reloading.

Stand-Alone? Would not be my first choice, but not my last either...

Really is best suited to HD, against onesies and twosies. 20? Good Luck with that!

Maybe a 10+ extension tube... [rofl2]
1599955180363.png
 
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A 12 gauge would be effective in this environment, if that’s all you had.

It will not be as effective as an AR or AK. 30 rounds w negligible recoil versus 8-10 rounds w/ a ton of recoil? After the first shot w the 12 gauge you better be well trained on it to get the next shot on target. Just about anyone can get multiple shots on target w a semi rifle and certainly at a much faster/more accurate rate than w a shotgun. Then there’s the reloading factor.

The Kyle Rittenhouse situation proves exactly why a semi rifle is better. And it goes for home protection as well. W/ the proper ammo, an AR15 will over penetrate less than a shotgun or a 9mm handgun.

Why on earth wouldn’t anyone go w the rifle if given the option?
 
Is a 12 ga. A good option,,,, in an urban environment ,,,,that is the question
I would think that it is a better choice than a high velocity alternative
I would take a 12 over a 556 close encounter any day
 
G Port said:
Good afternoon, braintrust. In all of these clips and pics of both antifa and the conservatives, I see alot of ar's and ak's and some other rifles. It seems from all the pics that the environment in which conflict would occur is urban; short distances and buildings etc. Would a good old 12 ga be effective in this environment?

Let's hear it please. Pro's and con's
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I was born and raised with 12 gauge pumps, bolt action and lever action rifles like some fools will call "Fudd guns". Believe me, they may not be cool by the standards of gun shop Rambos and Navy SEAL wannabes but the damned things are reliable, accurate and deadly. I was raised in south Alabama and my wife, Jill, was raised in the bayous of Louisiana. These are the guns we use. Now we live in Wakefield, MA. My home defense guns are two Remington 870s, modified for combat with extended mag tubes and ghost ring rifle sights. Winchester Super X 1 oz slugs and OO buck are my standard loadings. Jill uses a stainless Ruger Mini 14 ranch rifle with 6 loaded 10 round mags (M193) ball.
 
SHOCKNAWE said:
In my opinion? I think AK’s are virtually indestructible and I like 5.56 over 7.62
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An AK is on my short list of future purchases. Want to see how much I can neglect and abuse it and still function.

For HD I went step further. Wanted the clean piston action of an AK, the ammo of an AR, and SBR size without the NFA headache. Enter the X95. If only it was more accurate.
 
Waher said:
If it worked in WW1 it will work for you:
551-1024x262.jpg

Pointy thing is to keep the commies at bay while you reload.
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We toured the now-retired USS Nautilus last year in Groton. CT. Her small arms locker held two of those 1890s vintage pump shotguns, along with two M1 carbines and three M1 Garand rifles.
 
Some salient points so far. Both will do the trick, and whatever you’ve got is better than nothing.

recoil, can’t be overstated, especially in highly stressful situation...this won’t be range day where you can take your time and make sure everything is just so.

the one thing that I see missing from the discussion is armor penetration. Some of the pics/vids I have seen appear to have commies with body armor, some soft, some plate carriers. This is where the shotguns will fail, IMO. Having to anticipate body armor is a whole nother level and some body armor 556 and x39 isn’t going to touch anyways....on the first shot. Whereas soft body armor is going to stop buck shot and probably even a slug, AR/AK have no issue penetrating.
 
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What is everyone hung up on “if it’s a 12ga it’s a pump”. What about semi autos? There are some great semi auto options. Shotguns have their limitations for sure. But thar can be mitigated with a lot of practice and turned into a devastating and effective platform. Thankfully it can be done cheaply, as reloading is the major hurdle. Some 12ga blanks is all you need. I’m actually starting to think the biggest issue is carrying all the ammo.
 
There’s a reason the military has mostly relegated shotguns to breaching.
When facing lots of threats, and especially outdoors, a shotgun is at a severe disadvantage to a carbine.

But if you do use a shotgun, I recommend #1 buck over 00 or #4.
 
Are you trying to decide what to buy, or what to bring to the barricades?

1600003884470.png

If the first, get what you're comfortable with - If you're fighting a pitched battle, then you need something with sustained rate of fire capability. If it's a crowd of anitfa, they're not likely to stay around for a second volley.
 
G Port said:
Good afternoon, braintrust. In all of these clips and pics of both antifa and the conservatives, I see alot of ar's and ak's and some other rifles. It seems from all the pics that the environment in which conflict would occur is urban; short distances and buildings etc. Would a good old 12 ga be effective in this environment?

Let's hear it please. Pro's and con's
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Damn skippy it would be effective. But as others have pointed out, a magazine fed rifle offers a couple of advantages. Capacity being the most obvious.
Load out weight being another. 120 rounds of rifle ammo is one magazine in the firearm, three magazines to carry. 120 rounds of 12ga is bulky.
Rate of fire is obviously dependent upon whether the shotty is pump or semi.
But wounds created by a 12ga with 00 buck or slugs are devastating. How likely is it that a group will continue to advance into a firing shotgun? Or any firearm for that matter?

If a 12ga is what you have, you can mount a very effective defense but it needs to tailored to what you have at your disposal. If you are facing a group that got close and you have a pump gun, you may be better off going to your pistol. If you are facing a rifle, you need to find good cover. If the 12ga is a quality semi, you can put a lot of lead down range very very quickly.
If a 12ga is what you have, I would strongly suggest you practice topping the gun off while shooting. The goal being to never let the gun run dry. But I recommend every shooter practice " combat reloads" no matter what you are shooting.

Would a shotgun be my weapon of choice? Probably not against a crowd of motards with rifles slung over their shoulders. But with some practice and some thought there are very few human problems that can not be mitigated with a 12ga., short of an all out war zone.
 
You would think that if shotguns were preferable in urban combat, there'd be a big push for shotgun training in the Marines. Has there been?
 
Are we talking about defending against Looters or Shooters? Looters = shotgun with lethal and less lethal rounds. Shooters= AR/AK

If your looking to dress up with your favorite long gun for the next big BLM/Antifa/Biden/Trump rally you may want to just stay home.
 
I've taken some good tactical shotgun classes, I prefer my 590A1 to my AK, but even the best instructor I've seen would have a hard time reloading, running and gunning in that particular situation. It can be done but it's much harder and not many people, myself included, have devoted the time to shotgun practice and simulation to do it effectively.

However, I can't help but think people might back off after seeing one or two faces blown off.
 

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