I have a customer trying to send a gun to a repair company. I’m the middle man sending it and receiving it. I have a store front FFL. The customer wants to pick it up. I assume I’d have to do a 4473, but do I need to do an FA-10 form?
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Is an FA-10 form needed?
- Thread starter Aeryx
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VTski4x4
NES Member
Bro....really!?
The Anchor
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Maybe this MA FFL thing isn’t your thing? Or is it a troll post
MaroonedinMA
NES Member
It's concerning that you don't know the answer. I'm not intending to be a jerk, but this seems fundamental...
MaroonedinMA
NES Member
Understood. I believe the answer is no but I am not a lawyer and wouldn't want to give you inaccurate advice. There are several FFL who could answer more definitively.
Irrespective of what the answer to this question is, you are operating in a hostile environment in the State of MA. You need to get solid legal/procedural advice in order to do so with minimal legal exposure. Your question suggests that this should be a priority. No one wants to get jammed up for avoidable mistakes.
This goes in and out of your books as a repair.
No 4473 required.* No FA10s. Where i worked we also had a shipping log with a tracking number recorded.
* = if they replace the frame and the SN changes then obviously it's treated as a new firearm and then a 4473 or a full blown transfer must happen. This is obviously not normal, though.
You guys should do some legwork though and "learn all of the things" otherwise you won't retain that license very long.
Honestly in this case I wouldn't be afraid of the state but if they f*** up their operations the feds are going to pull their license. The state of Massachusetts is basically a joke 99.9999% of the time. This is FFL 101 stuff they are asking here, not "special MA cooties land stuff".
MaroonedinMA
NES Member
That tracks.
Dude think about what your business is and what you’re up against with near every part of MA’s legal/justice system being openly against your type of business.
That requires a certain level of maturity and being a self starter to not get jammed up by them, IE training yourself in everything needed and studying all the requirements for different transactions, instead of just saying wahh we didn’t get any training, the state f***ed us.
Take some responsibility for your success or failures instead of asking a bunch of strangers online and complaining about that too.
MisterHappy
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The problem is that you want legal advice, from non-lawyers (or lawyers that are not on your payroll).
Believe it or not, ATF will shower you with publications for free. I think it used to be called the orange book. But regardless googling is your friend. Also, I would highly recommend getting into an electronic bound book like fastbound or a POS system like AIM that has self auditing in it. If you commit to monthly self audits, real audits suddenly are not a big deal anymore. Become politely intolerant of bad paperwork; check it twice. No blank spots unless they're one of the few you can skip. Little things like "no middle name" = put NMN in the box. = goes a long way. When someone fills out a 4473, make sure it makes sense; if it doesn't destroy it and have them redo it.
dcmdon
NES Member
I'll give you an answer in a moment. I used to be a FFL in CT and have a pretty good grasp of MA law also.
First though. The customer can send the gun directly to the manufacturer without involving you. ATF allows this and there isnt' anything in state law prohibiting it. In a perfect world the manufacturer would email the customer a Fed Ex or UPS shipping label and the customer would just ship it from their home.
www.atf.gov
The gun could then be shipped directly back to the customer at home. (adult signature required)
But if for some reason the customer insists on you shipping, the gun needs to be booked in by you and then booked out when you ship it.
The manufacturer may then then return the gun directly to the customer if they wish. But if it comes into you, you will need to book it in.
Now it gets opaque. ATF says that a gun being returned from a repair doesn't require a 4473 and NICS check. That's why the manufacturer can ship directly to the customer.
But you aren't doing the repair. So the transfer from you to the person doesn't fit nicely into that little box.
All of the guidance is specific to a person dropping it off or shipping it to a gunsmith. It doesn't mention using an intermediary.
I wouldn't want to risk it being interpreted as a transfer to a non-licensee. So in that case I'd do the full monte.
4473, NICS check, any process necessary for state compliance.
But again, I'd strongly suggest the customer ship it to the manufacturer on their own. If the manufacturer won't provide a shipping label, the customer may want to use shipmygun.com. The rates are good and they hold his hand through the process.
Don
First though. The customer can send the gun directly to the manufacturer without involving you. ATF allows this and there isnt' anything in state law prohibiting it. In a perfect world the manufacturer would email the customer a Fed Ex or UPS shipping label and the customer would just ship it from their home.
Is an ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom it was received. [27 CFR 478.124(a) and 478.147]
The gun could then be shipped directly back to the customer at home. (adult signature required)
But if for some reason the customer insists on you shipping, the gun needs to be booked in by you and then booked out when you ship it.
The manufacturer may then then return the gun directly to the customer if they wish. But if it comes into you, you will need to book it in.
Now it gets opaque. ATF says that a gun being returned from a repair doesn't require a 4473 and NICS check. That's why the manufacturer can ship directly to the customer.
But you aren't doing the repair. So the transfer from you to the person doesn't fit nicely into that little box.
All of the guidance is specific to a person dropping it off or shipping it to a gunsmith. It doesn't mention using an intermediary.
I wouldn't want to risk it being interpreted as a transfer to a non-licensee. So in that case I'd do the full monte.
4473, NICS check, any process necessary for state compliance.
But again, I'd strongly suggest the customer ship it to the manufacturer on their own. If the manufacturer won't provide a shipping label, the customer may want to use shipmygun.com. The rates are good and they hold his hand through the process.
Don
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dcmdon
NES Member
See #6.
If you do the 4473/NICS/FA10 and it's not necessary, you have wasted 15 minutes of your time.
If you don't do it and anyone at any time during a compliance inspection decides that you should have done it, then it can cost you much more.
The only situation I can think of where having to do a retail transfer could be a problem, actually happened to me about 15 years ago.
A friend was a FUDDY kind of gun guy. His Taurus revolver was malfunctioning so I was going to send it in for him.
At some point I found out that he no longer held a CT pistol permit. So while I could send it in for him, I couldn't transfer it back out to him.
CT law does not requrire any licenses to possess any firearms. It does however require a license to receive or purchase a firearm.
Because of that we agreed that I would help him ship it himself to the manufacturer, who would ship it directly back to him at his house.
If you do the 4473/NICS/FA10 and it's not necessary, you have wasted 15 minutes of your time.
If you don't do it and anyone at any time during a compliance inspection decides that you should have done it, then it can cost you much more.
The only situation I can think of where having to do a retail transfer could be a problem, actually happened to me about 15 years ago.
A friend was a FUDDY kind of gun guy. His Taurus revolver was malfunctioning so I was going to send it in for him.
At some point I found out that he no longer held a CT pistol permit. So while I could send it in for him, I couldn't transfer it back out to him.
CT law does not requrire any licenses to possess any firearms. It does however require a license to receive or purchase a firearm.
Because of that we agreed that I would help him ship it himself to the manufacturer, who would ship it directly back to him at his house.
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