How many mags do you CCW with?

Hanwei said:
The extra mag is carried in this:

A Joab Horizontal Mag Pouch
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1509

IMG_0054.jpg
Click to expand...

Hanwei, do you like the bullets down orientation? I was thinking of buying one but was thinking bullets up. For regular mag carriers do you do bullets forward or bullets back (ala Rob Pincus)?
 
Just by doing some simulation, it seems bullets down is the horizontal analog of bullets fwd (how I carry now) in a vertical pouch. The hand and finger grasp is the same, you just rotate your hand 90 degrees towards your back.
 
Jose said:
Just by doing some simulation, it seems bullets down is the horizontal analog of bullets fwd (how I carry now) in a vertical pouch. The hand and finger grasp is the same, you just rotate your hand 90 degrees towards your back.
Click to expand...

Depends where you carry it. If it's behind your centerline I'd agree. If it's in front of you centerline I'd rotate 90 degrees the other way.
 
I carry a Sig P229 .40 S&W, (1) round chambered and a (10) round MA legal in the gun.
Another (10) round MA legal mag as a spare.

I always carry a second mag in case of problems, though I've never had one.

Being from Florida I've got a bunch of (12) round mags but since I could never figure out the how the hell to tell the difference between Pre and Post ban mags, I just went off and picked up the MA legal ones.
I'd love to carry my P250 9mm, but since they only ever came with (15) round mags I guess that's out of the question. My take on MA law is get caught with anything above (10) round mags and you're toast. Since it's more likely a LEO is going to check what I'm carrying than my getting into a firefight, I'll carry what I think the requirements are.

Some day I'll figure out MA laws (been here six months) or move to State where I can carry what I'm used to carrying.
 
eisenhow said:
Depends where you carry it. If it's behind your centerline I'd agree. If it's in front of you centerline I'd rotate 90 degrees the other way.
Click to expand...

Yep, once I said what I said I thought about it some more and came to the same conclusion.

Then I did the obvious and looked at Underwhere's pics and noticed that he faces the mag's baseplate to the back. Which makes perfect sense, as it greatly simplifies the motion needed to get it out and into the gun.
 
The way you shoot at the range should be the way you'll shoot in a gunfight if the gun is for self defense.
Click to expand...

You are 100% right saying that it should be the same way, but it is not. Examples: At the range you know what is going to happen. If you miss your target nothing happens. If you want to have a water, coffee, smoke or whatever brake, you do that. The paper and metal don’t shot back at you. You are in a friendly atmosphere, etc, etc, etc. Now, in a real gunfight you have no clue of what is going to happen, how soon is going to happen, how many individuals will be shooting at you, if is going to happen in an open space full of people or not, if is going to happen during day light or night light, etc, etc, etc. I hope I clarify what I was trying to say.

I don't understand what you're saying about more ammo/more stress and both mags will fail if one does.
Click to expand...

What I am trying to say is that the fewer things you have to do during a real gunfight, less it will be your stress. A normal person, (meaning not a LEO, etc) probably will never have to use their gun in self-defense, but believe me when I tell you that we can have as many hours training, as many range hours, etc, that when the shit hits the fan we will be in the poorest situation against our aggressor who already knows his/her intentions.

About the 2 mag failing, it was a joke. I was talking about Murphy’s Law. I hope my explication sounds better know.

Ish.
 
I guess Ish never heard of force-on-force.

And I wonder how does he get to talk about what happens in a real gunfight? I wonder how many he has been in, or is he just talking out of the second mouth?
 
Ish said:
What I am trying to say is that the fewer things you have to do during a real gunfight, less it will be your stress. A normal person, (meaning not a LEO, etc) probably will never have to use their gun in self-defense, but believe me when I tell you that we can have as many hours training, as many range hours, etc, that when the shit hits the fan we will be in the poorest situation against our aggressor who already knows his/her intentions.

About the 2 mag failing, it was a joke. I was talking about Murphy’s Law. I hope my explication sounds better know.

Ish.
Click to expand...

Just because you're carrying a second mag doesn't mean you have to worry about it. It shouldn't be extra stress in a gun fight. I'm speaking hypothetically here (obviously), but if I was in a gun fight, I wouldn't even think about the spare mag(s) until something happened to the first one and they were needed. Sure, chances are you won't need it, and hopefully won't ever need to use the gun either. But if for some reason you do have to shoot, you're leaving yourself vulnerable to a magazine failure. Also, worst case scenario, what if you DO actually run out of ammo before the fight is over? You're gonna lay the gun down and say "Sorry I shot at you! Don't shoot me! I'm out of ammo!" ???
 
Well, it does looks to me that you guys will find out (hopefully never) when you are in that situation, don't you?

Jose, sorry to read your comment about me. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else, but yes, I am not talking out of my ass. To bad you don't know me in person, maybe you will not be writing like you do about me, and maybe you will learn lots, but probably that will never happen, so keep talking as much as you want to. Thanks God there is people in this site who know me personally, so they already know who I am and if I am talking with knowledge or not, therefore you can keep making speculations about me as much as you want.

Respectfully,

Ish.
 
eisenhow said:
Hanwei, do you like the bullets down orientation? I was thinking of buying one but was thinking bullets up. For regular mag carriers do you do bullets forward or bullets back (ala Rob Pincus)?
Click to expand...

Jose said:
Just by doing some simulation, it seems bullets down is the horizontal analog of bullets fwd (how I carry now) in a vertical pouch. The hand and finger grasp is the same, you just rotate your hand 90 degrees towards your back.
Click to expand...

eisenhow said:
Depends where you carry it. If it's behind your centerline I'd agree. If it's in front of you centerline I'd rotate 90 degrees the other way.
Click to expand...

If I'm carrying a magazine in a vertical holster I carry bullet tip forward. However, with a horizontal magazine... the whole bullet tip forward/backward principals can't apply, as you're not using the same grip to extract the magazine.

With bullet tip foward carry, I grip the magazine with my index finger along the front of the magazine (with my middle finger and thumb on either side).

With bullet tip DOWN carry... or UP carry... you can't get your index finger along the front of the magazine since you can't get your thumb or middle finger around the side of the magazine that is towards your body.

So with bullet tip DOWN/UP carry... I use the "beer can" grip when extracting the magazine. And I found that when using the beer can grip, it works out better if the bullet tips are down, rather than up. For me, anyway.

Would I prefer to have the magazine carried in such a way to be able to use the bullet forward way of extracting it? Yes. But... I hate carrying mags vertically... and using the beer can grip on a horizontal mag is a HELL of a lot better than fumbling with a mag that's in your pocket.

It's not perfect... but it's an acceptable compromise in my mind. I won't carry vertically. So it's either in the pocket, or horizontal on the belt. And if my only choice was carry in the pocket, I'd probably leave the spare mag at home. So horizontal carry was the way to go for me.

[grin]

Garys said:
How much line do you carry for repelling? [rofl]
Click to expand...

About 100ft. why? don't you guys?
 
Hanwei said:
So with bullet tip DOWN/UP carry... I use the "beer can" grip when extracting the magazine. And I found that when using the beer can grip, it works out better if the bullet tips are down, rather than up. For me, anyway.
Click to expand...

I understand now. When I was thinking about it I forgot about being about not being able to wrap around the mag. Your "beer can grip" makes sense (esp. after I've had a few beers [smile]). I think I'll order one bullets down for my M&P9c. Thanks.
 
2 spare mags.

1911: 8 rounders
XD SC: 10 round in the gun, and 2 eagle brand - Pre-ban 15 rounders carried.



__________________________________________________
Procrastination = FAIL
 
Ish said:
I’m with Cekin, Timber and Greg.

I believe that it is stressful enough to get into a real gun fight, and I believe that more ammo equals more stress, if we even realize and can find those extra mags while in the fight. Many people will say that training for those things will make you calm and ready, sorry to say but it is not true. If we think about it, we can’t most of the time shoot like we shoot in a range during a normal competition, so imagine about a real gun fight.

Talking about Murphy, if the 1st mag fails, who can tell me that the second one (if I have time enough to reach it and load the gun) will not fail?
Click to expand...

Training won't make you not scared or not nervous. Training won't do that. It will however, train your muscles to do things without thinking about them. That's why you train doing draws from concealment, dry-firing and reloading and follow it up with range time.

I'm in full agreement that if TSHTF I'll be doing very well to keep calm enough to make a wise choice about use of force and use the weapon effectively. But, if I'm wildly unlucky enough to:

A) need my weapon
and
B) have a mag failure or need more ammo

I'll have it.

in that one case, having the extra mag might be what makes the difference between living and dying or at the least making my escort to Hell a little larger.

Carrying a concealed firearm is a pain in the ass in lots of ways no matter what your setup. Adding a spare mag is utterly trivial in comparison and it might save your life. Why wouldn't you?
 
tbear6357 said:
Being from Florida I've got a bunch of (12) round mags but since I could never figure out the how the hell to tell the difference between Pre and Post ban mags, I just went off and picked up the MA legal ones.
I'd love to carry my P250 9mm, but since they only ever came with (15) round mags I guess that's out of the question. My take on MA law is get caught with anything above (10) round mags and you're toast. Since it's more likely a LEO is going to check what I'm carrying than my getting into a firefight, I'll carry what I think the requirements are.

Some day I'll figure out MA laws (been here six months) or move to State where I can carry what I'm used to carrying.
Click to expand...

Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 140 Section 131m is the law you need to know about mags. In Mass., if it holds more than 10 rounds, the magazine has to be pre-ban (made before September 13, 1994), unless you're a cop/military with issued magazines that are post-ban. Violation is a felony, up to 10 years. [thinking]

There are pre-ban Sig mags in circulation, but I'm not a Sig guy, so I can't help you identify what's what. You could try a Google search or a new thread on here.

So when people move here from another state, they should store any post-ban assault weapons or high cap mags out of state if they want to avoid felony charges.

Ish said:
You are 100% right saying that it should be the same way, but it is not. Examples: At the range you know what is going to happen. If you miss your target nothing happens. If you want to have a water, coffee, smoke or whatever brake, you do that. The paper and metal don’t shot back at you. You are in a friendly atmosphere, etc, etc, etc. Now, in a real gunfight you have no clue of what is going to happen, how soon is going to happen, how many individuals will be shooting at you, if is going to happen in an open space full of people or not, if is going to happen during day light or night light, etc, etc, etc. I hope I clarify what I was trying to say.



What I am trying to say is that the fewer things you have to do during a real gunfight, less it will be your stress. A normal person, (meaning not a LEO, etc) probably will never have to use their gun in self-defense, but believe me when I tell you that we can have as many hours training, as many range hours, etc, that when the shit hits the fan we will be in the poorest situation against our aggressor who already knows his/her intentions.

About the 2 mag failing, it was a joke. I was talking about Murphy’s Law. I hope my explication sounds better know.

Ish.
Click to expand...

OK, I think I see what you're saying now. But that's why I think it's important to do what Bill Nance said, and repeat the actions of drawing, aiming, firing, reloading, until it become second nature, and you don't have to think about it.

Bill Nance said:
in that one case, having the extra mag might be what makes the difference between living and dying or at the least making my escort to Hell a little larger.
Click to expand...

[rofl]

+1 to your whole post, but that line just made me laugh.
 
Bill Nance said:
Training won't make you not scared or not nervous. Training won't do that. It will however, train your muscles to do things without thinking about them. That's why you train doing draws from concealment, dry-firing and reloading and follow it up with range time.

I'm in full agreement that if TSHTF I'll be doing very well to keep calm enough to make a wise choice about use of force and use the weapon effectively. But, if I'm wildly unlucky enough to:

A) need my weapon
and
B) have a mag failure or need more ammo

I'll have it.

in that one case, having the extra mag might be what makes the difference between living and dying or at the least making my escort to Hell a little larger.

Carrying a concealed firearm is a pain in the ass in lots of ways no matter what your setup. Adding a spare mag is utterly trivial in comparison and it might save your life. Why wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

+10, touché.

I agree completely with you and sorry if my English it is not the best and I can not get my point right away. What I have been trying to say since the beginning, is that doesn’t matter how much training we have or how much knowledge of weapons we have. In this post we are talking about hypothesis and practice at home or at the range, not in real gunfight.

Allow me to explain what I am trying to say with a different example. On top of whatever my knowledge is about these real cases, etc, I have been teaching martial arts to thousands of people including Police Departments, Special Forces, ect, for many years now. Hundreds of those people went all the way to Black Belt but they never participated in any contact competition and hundreds of them got their butt kick for a regular person on the streets. On the other hand, I had many other people with only an orange belt, who are going to real competitions. Once we are back in the gym, those Orange Belts play all they want against the Black Belts who never went to a real competition. Obviously those Black belts have more thecniqe, but not real experience.

In other words, in a real fight and with no referee, kick someone on the head will be the same that punch someone on their feet, if this makes any sense to you.

I absolutely understand the extra mag., but I really doubt that will be ever use for a CCW, as well as I doubt that the mag will fail if we take care of our equipment, maybe the ammo could fail but not the mags.

Never say never, but I am sick and tired of putting my weapons, especially my Glocks, under all kind of stress, including under water, snow, mud, etc, and my mags never fail, what it did fail once every other blue moon it was the ammo.

So, once again, unless you have a very low capacity mag on your carry weapon, if you need more than 8-10 better start to pray because extra ammo will not make the difference

Ish.
 
Ish said:
Allow me to explain what I am trying to say with a different example. On top of whatever my knowledge is about these real cases, etc, I have been teaching martial arts to thousands of people including Police Departments, Special Forces, ect, for many years now. Hundreds of those people went all the way to Black Belt but they never participated in any contact competition and hundreds of them got their butt kick for a regular person on the streets. On the other hand, I had many other people with only an orange belt, who are going to real competitions. Once we are back in the gym, those Orange Belts play all they want against the Black Belts who never went to a real competition. Obviously those Black belts have more thecniqe, but not real experience.
Click to expand...

+1. If your skills aren't pressure tested, they may be useless. You'll still never know how you'll react to a real fight for your life on the street, but the closer you can get in training, the better off you are. Lots of people who carry guns but haven't had any realistic force on force are fooling themselves about their chances.
 

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