hi capacity magazines

[Maninblue1861]

I love this state . Really should have an emote that shows folks taking it up the a$$....that would fit this state.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

SO..... slightly off track here, If I own a gun that was made post ban and there we no mags made for it pre-ban, but somehow I find a magical high cap mag that fits and works I am ok because it's the mag that is at issue not the gun, right?

calling the pistol post-ban is a bit of a misnomer because it doesnt matter when the gun was made, just the magazine...... From my understanding, if you found a pre-ban mag that was for another gun but works in the gun you are talking about, then it is fine, so long as you did not have to modify that magazine to make it work.

Hopefully someone will shed some light on this very soon.

 

[Nana the Great]

That is right up there with a FUD saying "nobody needs a rifle like that" regarding an AR, which also happened to me.

My standard response is...
"It's got nothing to do with need, it's about wanting and freedom."

 

[Nana the Great]

calling the pistol post-ban is a bit of a misnomer because it doesnt matter when the gun was made, just the magazine...... From my understanding, if you found a pre-ban mag that was for another gun but works in the gun you are talking about, then it is fine, so long as you did not have to modify that magazine to make it work.

Hopefully someone will shed some light on this very soon.

Isn't this one of those cases, where you may have the letter of the law on your side, but it won't matter if an LEO thinks differently and arrests you?

You could end up paying a good deal of cash to prove you're in the right. It seems that whether or not it's worth the hassle is an individual decision.

 

[BOBKATT]

From my understanding, if you found a pre-ban mag that was for another gun but works in the gun you are talking about, then it is fine, so long as you did not have to modify that magazine to make it work.

That is interesting. Is it illegal to modify a magazine? And, is it illegal to manufacture a magazine?

 

[stinx]

I thought it was you could modify the Pre Ban mag as long as it still worked for the original weapon it was configured for. Someone with more knowledge on this may have more up to date info. A good rule to live by when at the range is the acronym: MYFOB- Mind your own Flipping business. Just saying.

 

[wheelgun]

How does that mean anything?

<snip>

Mass is not an island. Its surrounded by relatively free'er states in which MA residents can buy, in an unregulated manner all kinds of stuff that MA residents can't get.

I just bought 2K rounds of Federal Lake City Ammo for $560 delivered for a friend in MA. (Who holds all credentials necessary to legally this ammo into MA) He'll be picking it up from me in CT.

Don

This is not an example of a Mass. prohibited product, like new high cap mags.
All ammo is legal to possess and purchase in Mass. The only problem is that most out of state retailers don't want to ship it to us due to threats by the AG.

.

 

[center442]

And the answer to this question (emphasis mine):



And if the guy has a receipt for a gun from said shop, the shop is not going to get off so easy with "I didn't sell it" as an excuse.

And if I'm reading that correctly, Len, a conviction under that law would be a lifetime disqualifier, no?

So, a Sept. 13, 1994 hi-cap is fine, but an identical one from Sept. 14, 1994 is evil. Like so many things in MA this makes perfect sense. I sleep so much better at night knowing how the state is looking out for my safety.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I thought it was you could modify the Pre Ban mag as long as it still worked for the original weapon it was configured for. Someone with more knowledge on this may have more up to date info. A good rule to live by when at the range is the acronym: MYFOB- Mind your own Flipping business. Just saying.

You have this exactly correct.

----------------

To answer another question above, YES it is ILLEGAL to mfr a new hi-cap mag or create a hi-cap out of a low-cap mag.

And if I'm reading that correctly, Len, a conviction under that law would be a lifetime disqualifier, no?

So, a Sept. 13, 1994 hi-cap is fine, but an identical one from Sept. 14, 1994 is evil. Like so many things in MA this makes perfect sense. I sleep so much better at night knowing how the state is looking out for my safety.

Lifetime DQ Federally, yes. And yes, they grandfathered in all mags made before the "magic date" to avoid ex-post-facto law challenges, that's the only reason that one is legal at all!

 

[bostonasphalt2]

I thought it was you could modify the Pre Ban mag as long as it still worked for the original weapon it was configured for. Someone with more knowledge on this may have more up to date info. A good rule to live by when at the range is the acronym: MYFOB- Mind your own Flipping business. Just saying.

There we go, that is the info I was hoping would show up!

 

[LoginName]

Regarding the responsibility being on the FFL and none on the buyer, the only example that comes to mind is if an FFL sold an off-list (or one that doesn't comply with the AG's CMR), firearm to a MA resident.

In that situation, then the responsibility (and penalties), would be on the dealer and the buyer/person in possession would be off the hook.

I work with a retired Leo that's his stance as well, " hey they sold it to me it's the dealers problem. "

That's like getting caught with illegal drugs and saying "it's the dealers problem, not mine".

SO..... slightly off track here, If I own a gun that was made post ban and there we no mags made for it pre-ban, but somehow I find a magical high cap mag that fits and works I am ok because it's the mag that is at issue not the gun, right?

calling the pistol post-ban is a bit of a misnomer because it doesnt matter when the gun was made, just the magazine...... From my understanding, if you found a pre-ban mag that was for another gun but works in the gun you are talking about, then it is fine, so long as you did not have to modify that magazine to make it work.

Hopefully someone will shed some light on this very soon.

That is interesting. Is it illegal to modify a magazine? And, is it illegal to manufacture a magazine?

I thought it was you could modify the Pre Ban mag as long as it still worked for the original weapon it was configured for. Someone with more knowledge on this may have more up to date info. A good rule to live by when at the range is the acronym: MYFOB- Mind your own Flipping business. Just saying.

This all arises from an ancient ATF determination/ruling.

How it would apply to MA law or a prosecutor is anyones guess...

Dear Mr. Bardwell:

This refers to your letter of September 15, 2000, in which you
asked about modifying a magazine.

As defined in section 921(a)(31), of Title 18, United States Code
(U.S.C.), the term large capacity ammunition feeding device -

(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar
device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent
Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (September 13,
1994) that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored
or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition; but

(B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to
accept,and capable of operating only with .22 caliber rimfire
ammunition.

It is generally unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a
large capacity ammunition feeding device as provided in 18 U.S.C.
section 922(w).

A magazine manufactured prior to September 13, 1994, would not be
a large capacity ammunition-feeding device as defined. You asked
about altering such a magazine so that it could fit in another type
of firearm.

If the altered magazine could no longer function in the firearm for
which it was originally designed, it is our opinion that a new
magazine has been manufactured. The fact that the materials used
to construct the new magazine were made prior to September 13,
1994, would not mean that the magazine was manufactured prior tot
hat date. The altered magazine would be a large capacity
ammunition feeding device and it would be subject to the
prohibition in section 922(w).

If the magazine has minor modifications performed, such as cutting
an additional slot for a different style of magazine release, and
it still functions in the original firearm for which it was
designed, we do not believe that it would be considered a new
magazine. However, it major changes are made it is possible that
a new magazine has been manufactured. It is not possible for us to
render a final opinion on such magazines without examining a
sample.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter88.txt

 

[chindogg]

Why? I go to the range to shoot, not to ask people questions about whether or not their gun or mags are legal or whatever. That's their problem, not mine.

I know a fair amount about the gun laws in MA. I see no purpose in going out of my way to interfere in someones business at the range, unless they're actually asking for my opinion. Whatever they are doing is none of my business unless it's causing an unsafe condition on the range.

-Mike

I didn't bring it up. He was talking about it already. I don't go around prying people about their business.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Regarding the responsibility being on the FFL and none on the buyer, the only example that comes to mind is if an FFL sold an off-list (or one that doesn't comply with the AG's CMR), firearm to a MA resident.

Ditto for selling an on-list gun that violates the MA AG's consumer safety CMR.

 

[chindogg]

So, did you try the XD? A friend of mine just got one, seem like a nice pistol. I haven't shot it yet.

I liked it

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Regarding the responsibility being on the FFL and none on the buyer, the only example that comes to mind is if an FFL sold an off-list (or one that doesn't comply with the AG's CMR), firearm to a MA resident.

How so? it is a felony for you to possess post ban high cap magazines, regardless of where you got them......

 

[swampy]

When I was a noob a gun shop sold me hi caps knowingly, and even wrote on the reciept, Preban magazines. Guy was a total DB.

I took a beating from Scrivener and ended up destroying the mags. Expensive mistake but one that won't be repeated

Why didn't you just trade them to a non A-hole state resident for some A-hole state legal mags?

 

[swampy]

I thought it was you could modify the Pre Ban mag as long as it still worked for the original weapon it was configured for. Someone with more knowledge on this may have more up to date info. A good rule to live by when at the range is the acronym: MYFOB- Mind your own Flipping business. Just saying.

This might be the best reason to keep security cameras off ranges too. If the recordings are ever subpeona'd every member of the club could come under scrutiny for a variety of legal issues.

 

[LoginName]

How so? it is a felony for you to possess post ban high cap magazines, regardless of where you got them......

Magazines... yes.

Firearms (hand guns)... no.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Magazines... yes.

Firearms (hand guns)... no.

ahh, yes. I was confused because we were originally talking magazines, and I didnt catch the line change

 

[Nana the Great]

So, a Sept. 13, 1994 hi-cap is fine, but an identical one from Sept. 14, 1994 is evil. Like so many things in MA this makes perfect sense.

It only makes 'sense' if you understand how political negotiation takes place. Logic is never part of the discussion.

 

[ARV]

So, did you try the XD? A friend of mine just got one, seem like a nice pistol. I haven't shot it yet.

Buddy of mine has the .45. Dumped the Sigma he had and went for that instead. Hes happy with it. Though his method of carry (shoulder rig with an empty gun on one side, loaded mag on the other, under a sweatshirt) baffles me. Grandfather had a 9mm for a nightstand gun (in Vt) and was happy with it until something else caught his fancy. I checked them out, comfortable in the hand but I didn't like the grip safety. It just seems too short/small to me.

 

[drgrant]

I didn't bring it up. He was talking about it already. I don't go around prying people about their business.

Well, that's a little different then. Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

-Mike

 

[Gatling77]

Does anyone have any insight on pre ban hi capicity magazines for a Walther P99 in MA? I saw some for sale on a website and was curiouos how these play into the MA laws?

 

[Terminator03]

What really pisses me off is that we have the class A "Hi Capacity" LTC, but can't really possess high cap mags... gee that makes sense...

In all honesty, when was the last time anyone has ever actually been arrested, or prosecuted for possession of one of these evil, baby killing, high cap mags (who wasn't already screwed for some other crime anyway)? I seriously doubt that most police officers would know the difference between a pre-ban, and a current model mag anyway, unless it is specifically stamped with either a date of manufacture, or says LE only, or some such jargon. The whole thing is pure stupidity.

 

[atilla]

Does anyone have any insight on pre ban hi capicity magazines for a Walther P99 in MA? I saw some for sale on a website and was curiouos how these play into the MA laws?

if they are pre-ban you can own them.

 

[wacky_doug]

What really pisses me off is that we have the class A "Hi Capacity" LTC, but can't really possess high cap mags... gee that makes sense...

In all honesty, when was the last time anyone has ever actually been arrested, or prosecuted for possession of one of these evil, baby killing, high cap mags (who wasn't already screwed for some other crime anyway)? I seriously doubt that most police officers would know the difference between a pre-ban, and a current model mag anyway, unless it is specifically stamped with either a date of manufacture, or says LE only, or some such jargon. The whole thing is pure stupidity.

The AWB needs to be repealed in MA. The recent EOPS letter informing the police that they also cannot own post-ban equipment outside of work has further strengthened our cause. Personally, I would like to see the law enforcement and firearms community ban together to deal with this antiquated and pointless legislation. This is why I continue to support GOAL.

In the meantime...owning post-ban >10rd mags is a felony in MA. Do I see post-ban mags at the range? Yeah. Many people don't understand the laws here. Even some dealers don't. But it's still exposes you to legal risk to possess them in MA.

 

[SteelShooter]

The AWB needs to be repealed in MA. The recent EOPS letter informing the police that they also cannot own post-ban equipment outside of work has further strengthened our cause. Personally, I would like to see the law enforcement and firearms community ban together to deal with this antiquated and pointless legislation. This is why I continue to support GOAL.

In the meantime...owning post-ban >10rd mags is a felony in MA. Do I see post-ban mags at the range? Yeah. Many people don't understand the laws here. Even some dealers don't. But it's still exposes you to legal risk to possess them in MA.

I think the likelihood of being charged with a high cap mag, regardless of production date, is very likely in a situation where you have done something wrong. They will make you prove its preban.

 

[wacky_doug]

I think the likelihood of being charged with a high cap mag, regardless of production date, is very likely in a situation where you have done something wrong. They will make you prove its preban.

Yes, I completely agree. It will be an add-on charge (1 count per magazine?), and the burden of proof will be on your defense team.

Here's a sticky hypothetical though: temporary confiscation because of a restraining order (perhaps a spouse during a contentious divorce) or some other reason for loss of LTC. Lots of tinfoil situations we can come up with.

Bottom line, firearms ownership in an anti state is an exercise in degrees of legal risk and exposure.

 

[drgrant]

What really pisses me off is that we have the class A "Hi Capacity" LTC, but can't really possess high cap mags... gee that makes sense...

Yes you can, they just had to have been made before 9/13/94.

In all honesty, when was the last time anyone has ever actually been arrested, or prosecuted for possession of one of these evil, baby killing, high cap mags (who wasn't already screwed for some other crime anyway)? I seriously doubt that most police officers would know the difference between a pre-ban, and a current model mag anyway, unless it is specifically stamped with either a date of manufacture, or says LE only, or some such jargon. The whole thing is pure stupidity.

It is rare but there is some evidence that they occasionally attempt to prosecute these laws. Check out the AWB prosecution thread in the MA gun laws subforum.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

...and the burden of proof will be on your defense team.

Not necessarily. The evidence I've heard about seems to indicate that the DA has to wage the assertion that the magazine is not pre-ban. Otherwise they wouldn't be calling up Glock, etc, to try to get them to rat on their customers. The "We think your mag is illegal" charge has to be backed up with something in order to get a jury (or a judge for that matter) to suck for it. "We think it's illegal but we don't really know" isn't exactly compelling evidence in a courtroom. To turn this on its end, think about how other contraband etc is tested. EG, if some gangbanger gets caught with a bag of white powder, somewhere in the mix of evidence is a lab test proving that it is cocaine (or whatever). The DA isn't going to hold up a bag of powder and go "Yeah this is a bag of white powder and we think it's cocaine, but we really don't know." That doesn't hold up well in court.

-Mike