Provably pre-ban pistol magazines? (Yes, I know...)

[Spartan65]

Stopped when OP said he didn’t like Glocks.

 

[drgrant]

While I carry pre-ba standard caps myself, I understand why people get nervous in MA. OP is clearly quite nervous and should just carry 10rd mags.

Most of the people get nervous because they've sauced themselves up on "mass gun owner calamity doom porn" etc. while losing sight of the fact that out of the shitload of LTC holders in mass, only a fraction of a % ever get clapped for anything gun related. One day I just woke up and decided to refuse to live that way anymore, (and honestly my blood pressure cant afford it) but everyones gotta make their own choices/do whats comfortable.

 

[Grendizer138]

Most of the people get nervous because they've sauced themselves up on "mass gun owner calamity doom porn" etc. while losing sight of the fact that out of the shitload of LTC holders in mass, only a fraction of a % ever get clapped for anything gun related. One day I just woke up and decided to refuse to live that way anymore, (and honestly my blood pressure cant afford it) but everyones gotta make their own choices/do whats comfortable.

“One day” for me was 7/21/2016.

 

[AMV]

I only like to carry standard capacity mags, so my pistol choices come into play, Sig 365, Glock 43x, Glock 26 and a few others with lesser capacity.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Except that, in the case of Glock anyway, crippled mags have a proven record of unreliability. I wouldn’t trust my life to a crippled mag or a 30 year old U-notch mag.

I honestly don’t know how you guys leave the house with the amount of anxiety you must have in this state.

I think you miss the point. I'm not afraid of the man when it comes to prebans, as I know I've done my homework and would eventually prevail. What I don't want is the days to weeks to months of legal bullsh*t that comes along with proving my innocence and the time and money lost along the way should it ever come to it. Not for 5 extra rounds that could be moot anyway with carrying another mag for a G19. So the only thing I really fear is hassle.

And I do suppose crippling a double stack mag with rails or dimples does present a potential reliability issues in some brands. Throws off original mag geometry in favor of a more single stack interior or might add jamming points. Still, as long as you've thoroughly tested your mags and proven them functional, I don't see the problem. All my reduced cap mags are fine save for some ETS that I regret buying because they are ETS. Those don't count.

 

[drgrant]

I think you miss the point. I'm not afraid of the man when it comes to prebans, as I know I've done my homework and would eventually prevail. What I don't want is the days to weeks to months of legal bullsh*t that comes along with proving my innocence and the time and money lost along the way should it ever come to it. Not for 5 extra rounds that could be moot anyway with carrying another mag for a G19. So the only thing I really fear is hassle.

If you ever had to use your gun in self-defense you're going to have to deal with all of that anyways they're going to be analyzing what you ate for dinner never mind the stupid capacity thing.....

 

[M1911]

If you ever had to use your gun in self-defense you're going to have to deal with all of that anyways they're going to be analyzing what you ate for dinner never mind the stupid capacity thing.....

True. But while there may be some uncertainty in their ability to prove that the shooting was unjustified, you don’t want to hand them an easy felony win on a post-ban standard cap magazine.

 

[LakeTrout]

I personally would carry the standard capacity magazines if there were no way to tell when they were manufactured. I'd probably also buy more new ones too and try to make them look all used and old. But that is just me. No one should take life advice from me.

 

[Grendizer138]

True. But while there may be some uncertainty in their ability to prove that the shooting was unjustified, you don’t want to hand them an easy felony win on a post-ban standard cap magazine.

But at that point you’re acknowledging you were just in a gunfight, I’m thinking you may have wanted those 5 rounds…

 

[CATI]

But at that point you’re acknowledging you were just in a gunfight, I’m thinking you may have wanted those 5 rounds…

Yup
If you carry an extra magazine with 15 round magazines its 16+15=31
Vs someone with 10 round 11+10=21
Its pretty significant IMO

I carry easily identifiable Glock mags

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

If you ever had to use your gun in self-defense you're going to have to deal with all of that anyways they're going to be analyzing what you ate for dinner never mind the stupid capacity thing.....

True, but what if I find myself in a non-shooting situation where I have to explain the magazine? Just a mental exercise I'm asking here. Maybe y'all will convince me I truly am concerned about nothing.

 

[Grendizer138]

True, but what if I find myself in a non-shooting situation where I have to explain the magazine? Just a mental exercise I'm asking here. Maybe y'all will convince me I truly am concerned about nothing.

I’m not going to try to convince you because I “get it” and I was once there myself; but once you realize that you’re following the letter of the law in good faith but the law won’t give you the same consideration, your outlook will change. And you’ll sleep better for it.

 

[puška m70]

I’m not going to try to convince you because I “get it” and I was once there myself; but once you realize that you’re following the letter of the law in good faith but the law won’t give you the same consideration, your outlook will change. And you’ll sleep better for it.

Absolutley. And to add that it's arguable that MA is generally acting in bad faith when it comes to firearms. As in 'guilty until proven innocent' and 'take the guns, ammo, etc first due process.... maybe later' and 'charge with 10 felonies see what sticks and let em plea down and will still get a high conviction rate'

 

[nordic alien]

Disclaimers:

1) Yes, I know that if you are dealing with a high cap magazine charge you probably have other problems.
2) Yes, I know that the prosecution would have to prove it wasn't pre-ban.
3) Peace of mind and a happy spouse is worth something in this endeavor.
4) I've done a fair amount of reading on this topic. I'm not asking for the basics, I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

So, I want a pistol that takes pre-ban high cap magazines, preferrably provably pre-ban magazines.

I don't want a Glock. I don't like them and the older magazines are failing with plastic cracking. Also not interested in Ruger P series.

I know that OEM MP5 magazines and other HK magazines usually have date codes on them. For pistol mags it seems there is primarily USP mags available? And they seem pretty rare.

As far as I can tell there isn't a way to prove beretta 92 mags are pre ban, unless you have a paper trail or possibly original packaging.

There are ways I've read to prove Sig p226 mags are, but it still seems to be a bit wishy washy, unless you have the paper trail or possibly original packaging. I'm looking into getting some copies of sig catalogs from the time to see if there is something there that could be useful.

Are there other options or ways to prove pre-ban status that I'm not aware of yet?

Is my best bet a sig p226 or beretta 92 with some sort of paper trail?

Thanks!

don't pay attention to laws. do what you can get away with; lying and sneaking to authorities should come as a natural attribute

 

[M1911]

But at that point you’re acknowledging you were just in a gunfight, I’m thinking you may have wanted those 5 rounds…

Sure. But what is the chance that I’ll be in a gunfight where I’ll need 11+ rounds without a chance to do a reload? Is it possible? Sure. How likely is it? It’s quite hard to come up with an accurate estimate of that risk.

I want to survive both the gunfight and the legal aftermath.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

I’m not going to try to convince you because I “get it” and I was once there myself; but once you realize that you’re following the letter of the law in good faith but the law won’t give you the same consideration, your outlook will change. And you’ll sleep better for it.

Complete side note, but Force Five was my sh*t back in the day. I leaned towards Getter Robo G, but Grendizer was badass too.

The problem with the above is that I know the law isn't going to give me any sort of consideration: hence my current stance of not F'ing around to find out. The whole, "I know I'm already F'd, so I might as well no longer care" doesn't seem logical to me, but I'm probably thinking too much into it.

 

[Grendizer138]

Complete side note, but Force Five was my sh*t back in the day. I leaned towards Getter Robo G, but Grendizer was badass too.

The problem with the above is that I know the law isn't going to give me any sort of consideration: hence my current stance of not F'ing around to find out. The whole, "I know I'm already F'd, so I might as well no longer care" doesn't seem logical to me, but I'm probably thinking too much into it.

Orion Quest riding his motorcycle off a cliff and into the Grandizer robot he stole, explains much of who I am

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Orion Quest riding his motorcycle off a cliff and into the Grandizer robot he stole, explains much of who I am

I recall there was some local (NE?) toy store, god knows where now, that would advertise during the Force Five shows that had Japanese imports of all these toys. Super low budget commercial with like camcorder results, but I was so god damn jealous that I never got to step foot in that place back in the day. I'd shake it off with some Movieloft or Three's Company reruns.

 

[Grendizer138]

I recall there was some local (NE?) toy store, god knows where now, that would advertise during the Force Five shows that had Japanese imports of all these toys. Super low budget commercial with like camcorder results, but I was so god damn jealous that I never got to step foot in that place back in the day. I'd shake it off with some Movieloft or Three's Company reruns.

Mr Big’s Toyland, Waltham MA.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Mr Big’s Toyland, Waltham MA.

Holy sh*t@#@! The rush of nostalgic freaking memories upon reading that...good god damn! I can hear the commercial now in my head. Thank you.

Edited to say: FN Waltham?!? My parents couldn't drive from Framingham to Waltham?!? lol. Maybe for the best.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCERFslrYr4

 

[42!]

Disclaimers:

1) Yes, I know that if you are dealing with a high cap magazine charge you probably have other problems.
2) Yes, I know that the prosecution would have to prove it wasn't pre-ban.
3) Peace of mind and a happy spouse is worth something in this endeavor.
4) I've done a fair amount of reading on this topic. I'm not asking for the basics, I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

So, I want a pistol that takes pre-ban high cap magazines, preferrably provably pre-ban magazines.

I don't want a Glock. I don't like them and the older magazines are failing with plastic cracking. Also not interested in Ruger P series.

I know that OEM MP5 magazines and other HK magazines usually have date codes on them. For pistol mags it seems there is primarily USP mags available? And they seem pretty rare.

As far as I can tell there isn't a way to prove beretta 92 mags are pre ban, unless you have a paper trail or possibly original packaging.

There are ways I've read to prove Sig p226 mags are, but it still seems to be a bit wishy washy, unless you have the paper trail or possibly original packaging. I'm looking into getting some copies of sig catalogs from the time to see if there is something there that could be useful.

Are there other options or ways to prove pre-ban status that I'm not aware of yet?

Is my best bet a sig p226 or beretta 92 with some sort of paper trail?

Thanks!

S&W 59, 459, 659, 5903, 5904, 5905, and 5906 will all take the pre-ban 14 and 15 round mags, there are also some 30 round out there mostly used with the Marlin Camp 9, which also takes 59 series mags. As for the mag safety mentioned by @drgrant , it's easily disabled without any irreversible modification, or you can just practice until it doesn't matter (or just leave it off all the time).

 

[Mesatchornug]

A CZ-75 (or clone) should also have magazines available if you're dedicated to the search

 

[Bostonbbop]

Thanks folks! Good point about the SW, CZ-75, and just moving up in caliber to make the 10 rounds count more. This is for a home defense gun, so I don't mind it being large & heavy.

I agree this is a "what best lets you sleep at night regardless of logic" issue.

 

[nstassel]

Bhp has lots of thirteen round preban. Hk usp has dated prebans too.

 

[pupchow]

Notice what's missing here? A specific date.

Model jury instruction regarding unlawful possession of large capacity weapons and/or feeding devices

From Comm. v. Cassidy, 479 Mass. 427 (2018) appendix.

www.mass.gov

 

[drgrant]

True, but what if I find myself in a non-shooting situation where I have to explain the magazine? Just a mental exercise I'm asking here. Maybe y'all will convince me I truly am concerned about nothing.

You still have to f*** up very badly to get “there. “. don’t do that.

If you’re that bent/concerned, make life easy, carry a 10 and be done with it.

Notice what's missing here? A specific date.

Model jury instruction regarding unlawful possession of large capacity weapons and/or feeding devices

From Comm. v. Cassidy, 479 Mass. 427 (2018) appendix.

www.mass.gov

lcafd wo license does not = awb mag charge

two different things

 

[drgrant]

A CZ-75 (or clone) should also have magazines available if you're dedicated to the search

Legit CZ-75 mags are difficult to find that are that old, the fun thing is theres a lot of crossover so if you find old Tanfoglio/Witness/Jericho? mags or similar they might seat in your
gun and work, may need a follower upgrade to make the slide lock back though. I have a ancient few CZ75-compatible? mags like that kicking around somewhere... they hold 15 rounds but dont lock the slide open. May be from a witness or something like that. There are so many 75 clones you lose count.

 

[milktree]

Canik TP9SF will take 92FS magazines if you mill a new mag release catch. This doesn't violate the AWB because the magazines can still be used in the Beretta.

The Canik has a really nice trigger and doesn't cost much. Worth a look.

 

[M1911]

Notice what's missing here? A specific date.

Model jury instruction regarding unlawful possession of large capacity weapons and/or feeding devices

From Comm. v. Cassidy, 479 Mass. 427 (2018) appendix.

www.mass.gov

Yeah. Here is the issue:

To prove the second element, the Commonwealth must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the item in question met the legal definition of a large capacity (weapon) (feeding device). (A large capacity weapon is defined in our law as any firearm, rifle, or shotgun that is semiautomatic and has a fixed large capacity feeding device or is capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device, or any firearm, rifle, or shotgun that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells.) (A large capacity feeding device is defined in our law as a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip, or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells.)

The problem is that a pre-ban standard cap magazine is, by definition, not a large capacity feeding device. The text of the law includes an opaque reference to the ban date:

''Large capacity feeding device'', (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994.

But the model instructions completely skip that possibility.

 

[jamison55]

Adding another vote to the 10 round .45 camp. Especially since you said it is a home defense gun. My bump in the night pistol is a Ruger SR 45 with a light on the rail and 10+1 JHPs. The pistol has been dead nuts reliable for me and ,I shoot it well. While too big for concealed carry, IMO, it is perfect in its current role.