Hampton, NH PD Bullsh*t Pistol License

[ntomsw]

I can't wait to find out the outcome of this.

 

[cyberlogicx]

Did he document it this time?

I did not. Walked in, handed over the application and said "Here's the pistol license application. You have 14 days." And walked back out

 

[mikem317]

Done!

Final version of my email is here:

Hello,

I recently discovered that an acquaintance of mine attempted and was unable to apply for a New Hampshire Resident Pistol/Revolver License in Hampton because it did not contain requested information - information proscribed from collection by the issuing authority per New Hampshire RSA 159:6.

Among the unlawfully requested items by the licensing authority (Hampton Police Department):
1. The phone numbers of the applicant’s references.
2. The applicant’s phone number.
3. A legible copy of the applicant’s driver’s license.
4. A legible copy of the applicant’s motor vehicle registration.
5. "3 local persons" that are also "not relatives or Hampton Police personnel" for purposes of references – RSA does not require "local" references nor does it prohibit the applicant from using police personnel from Hampton or any other jurisdiction. State law also does not limit the applicant from using relatives.

The relevant RSA is 159:6, Section b:

"The director of state police is hereby authorized and directed to prepare forms for the licenses required under this chapter and forms for the application for such licenses and to supply the same to officials of the cities and towns authorized to issue the licenses. No other forms shall be used by officials of cities and towns. The cost of the forms shall be paid out of the fees received from nonresident license."

Based on this alone, this is a clear violation of the letter and spirit of RSA 159:6. I am saddened to learn of this and I believe this should be deserving of your highest attention. Moreover there could be a financial liability to the Town of Hampton and its staff.

Per RSA 159:6, Section f, paragraph I:

"If any licensing entity or employee or member of the city council or board of selectmen, in violation of the provisions of this chapter, refuses to comply with this chapter, such entity or person shall be liable for reasonable attorney's fees and costs incurred in a lawsuit under this chapter to enforce the terms of this chapter, provided that the court finds that such lawsuit was necessary in order to obtain compliance with this chapter by the licensing authority. Fees shall not be awarded unless the court finds that the entity or person knew or should have known that the conduct engaged in was a violation of this chapter or when the parties, by agreement, provide that no such fees shall be paid. In any case in which fees are awarded under this chapter, upon a finding that an employee, or other official of a licensing entity has acted in bad faith in refusing to comply with this chapter, the court may award such fees personally against such employee or other official."

My suggestion for Town of Hampton is to fully honor the existing, state-defined Pistol/Revolver License process and to discontinue requesting any additional (and thereby unlawful) information such as copies of driver’s licenses, copies of vehicle registrations, or phone numbers of applicants’ references, placing conditions on applicant's references or any other information which is proscribed from collection per RSA.

A copy of the New Hampshire state Pistol/Revolver License for state residents can be downloaded here: http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/ssb/permitslicensing/documents/dssp85.pdf.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

 

[mikem317]

I'm also going to ping Rick Olson who is a regular poster on Granite Grok and is the president of Londonderry Fish and Game.

Anybody want to do a podcast?

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I'm also going to ping Rick Olson who is a regular poster on Granite Grok and is the president of Londonderry Fish and Game. Anybody want to do a podcast?

How do you do that?

 

[drgrant]

I hope that they don't try to play the "pacify, then go back to being obnoxious" trick. We'll have to get a followup from another person (or three) in Hampton that tries to get a P/R license about a month later after this is resolved, just to make sure they didn't regress.

Course it would be easy for anyone to test this just by walking into the PD and asking for an application and seeing if they get the illegal application form or not.

-Mike

 

[mikem317]

How do you do that?

I sent him an email. He's a pretty busy guy though but he's replied back to a few of my emails before.

 

[cyberlogicx]

I hope that they don't try to play the "pacify, then go back to being obnoxious" trick. We'll have to get a followup from another person (or three) in Hampton that tries to get a P/R license about a month later after this is resolved, just to make sure they didn't regress.

Course it would be easy for anyone to test this just by walking into the PD and asking for an application and seeing if they get the illegal application form or not.

-Mike

I hope they keep this up, because this and the subsequent lawsuits are going to be hilarious.

 

[drgrant]

I hope they keep this up, because this and the subsequent lawsuits are going to be hilarious.

Yeah, there are advantages to them just caving, although the "legal tiger uppercut/pee pee slap" just about ensures that they probably won't do it again. Hows that catchphrase go, something like "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

-Mike

 

[W.E.C]

 

[rep308]

 

[DispositionMatrix]

I did not. Walked in, handed over the application and said "Here's the pistol license application. You have 14 days." And walked back out

My guess is either it went right into the trash or is sitting on the chief's desk so he can decide how to dispose of it. You have no paper trail, and the PD knows it.

When I got mine (in another town) I never even considered going to the station to _ask_ for a form. I printed the form that is on the state website. Thus I don't actually know if Streeter hands out modified forms. It is worth mentioning that the officers with whom I dealt upon pick-up were very professional.

 

[Hiltonizer]

My guess is either it went right into the trash or is sitting on the chief's desk so he can decide how to dispose of it. You have no paper trail, and the PD knows it.

When I got mine (in another town) I never even considered going to the station to _ask_ for a form. I printed the form that is on the state website. Thus I don't actually know if Streeter hands out modified forms. It is worth mentioning that the officers with whom I dealt upon pick-up were very professional.

They list the official form on the PD site for download.

 

[W.E.C]

My guess is either it went right into the trash or is sitting on the chief's desk so he can decide how to dispose of it. You have no paper trail, and the PD knows it.

When I got mine (in another town) I never even considered going to the station to _ask_ for a form. I printed the form that is on the state website. Thus I don't actually know if Streeter hands out modified forms. It is worth mentioning that the officers with whom I dealt upon pick-up were very professional.

this

get out of the mud, and go over their pay grade ,or get muddy.

 

[soloman02]

Has anyone received a response yet?

Nothing here.

Haven't heard back yet..

 

[ntomsw]

I'm guessing since there's no paper trail, they may possibly just lie and say they never got it.

Unless they've gotten enough emails by now.

 

[Hiltonizer]

Haven't heard back yet..

same

 

[cyberlogicx]

I'm guessing since there's no paper trail, they may possibly just lie and say they never got it.

Unless they've gotten enough emails by now.

I'm on all their cameras, and I wrote down names and badge numbers.

 

[ochmude]

I'm on all their cameras, and I wrote down names and badge numbers.

You're not on any of your cameras, though. First, you don't know how long the video is stored. Most of the cameras in my station are only on a 72 hour loop. Second, regardless of how long the video is stored, saying "Oops, our recording system must have not been working" takes zero effort on the part of the PD. Third, names and badge numbers are publicly available information and provide proof of absolutely nothing. You need evidence that is irrefutable and under your control. Certified mail and cell phone video would go a long way.

 

[Nick Fury]

My guess is either it went right into the trash or is sitting on the chief's desk so he can decide how to dispose of it. You have no paper trail, and the PD knows it.

When I got mine (in another town) I never even considered going to the station to _ask_ for a form. I printed the form that is on the state website. Thus I don't actually know if Streeter hands out modified forms. It is worth mentioning that the officers with whom I dealt upon pick-up were very professional.

I gotta second this.

A year of following these threads at NES has told me it's best to send it in. Now you get to find out why.

 

[mikem317]

Where's the actual application? Is it with the PD or did you bring it home?

 

[drgrant]

Haven't heard back yet..

That's because whoever came up with this idea (the chief or whoever) is probably doing this right about now... so we all have to wait for the smoke to finish coming out of their ears.

 

[mikem317]

We're also running up on the holiday so a lot of folks may not be in the office right now.

 

[cyberlogicx]

Where's the actual application? Is it with the PD or did you bring it home?

It's with the police, currently.

 

[06LemansC6]

You're not on any of your cameras, though. First, you don't know how long the video is stored. Most of the cameras in my station are only on a 72 hour loop. Second, regardless of how long the video is stored, saying "Oops, our recording system must have not been working" takes zero effort on the part of the PD. Third, names and badge numbers are publicly available information and provide proof of absolutely nothing. You need evidence that is irrefutable and under your control. Certified mail and cell phone video would go a long way.

This

As I mentioned earlier in this thread your are the accuser, so the burden of proof is upon you. I would not count on the PD to provide you with any info that would help your case against them. I would also suspect most here would be furious at a prosecutor expecting a defendant to offer up evidence to incriminate themselves.

 

[noxin]

This

As I mentioned earlier in this thread your are the accuser, so the burden of proof is upon you. I would not count on the PD to provide you with any info that would help your case against them. I would also suspect most here would be furious at a prosecutor expecting a defendant to offer up evidence to incriminate themselves.

There are countless times when the government has gotten subpoenas and warrants to obtain evidence that would help them and hurt a defendant. This would be no different if the issue got that far. Of course, that is assuming that the evidence itself hasn't been tampered with or destroyed before it was requested. (ooops, we had a hard drive failure on the recording system).

 

[06LemansC6]

There are countless times when the government has gotten subpoenas and warrants to obtain evidence that would help them and hurt a defendant. This would be no different if the issue got that far. Of course, that is assuming that the evidence itself hasn't been tampered with or destroyed before it was requested. (ooops, we had a hard drive failure on the recording system).

Isn't this the same point I was making? A lawyer could make the attempt to get the PD records, but that is exactly what the result would be. An attorney can go to court to subpoena the PD records (much like .gov obtaining a warrant). There is a big difference between gathering evidence via. a subpoena or warrant vs. expecting the accused to just willingly hand over evidence.

 

[cyberlogicx]

So, just for sh*ts and giggles, I called the HPD just now. After wading through their press one press two bend over and take it phone system, I finally spoke with an officer. After confirming that the line was being recorded, I inquired that they recieved my wife's application. He said they did, and I thanked him and told him that we would be looking forward to hearing from him within 14 days.

Looks like they might have realized the pile of sh*t they stepped in. Unlucky for them, I'm not going to let this just get swept under the rug to shut me up.

 

[ochmude]

When you say "after confirming that the line was being recorded," do you mean you informed them that you were recording and that they consented to being recorded, or do you mean that you asked them if they were recording on their end and they confirmed that they were?

 

[mikem317]

So, just for sh*ts and giggles, I called the HPD just now. After wading through their press one press two bend over and take it phone system, I finally spoke with an officer. After confirming that the line was being recorded, I inquired that they recieved my wife's application. He said they did, and I thanked him and told him that we would be looking forward to hearing from him within 14 days.

Looks like they might have realized the pile of sh*t they stepped in. Unlucky for them, I'm not going to let this just get swept under the rug to shut me up.

Sounds like good news!