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GOAL Not Supporting Fish & Wildlife Fee Increases Until Serious Issues are Addressed

AHM

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I don't have time to read the old conservationist publications you posted.

What's your angle on pit rob?
By shortly after the war, the NYS Conservation Department was so hungry for the funds
that they were putting a lot of effort into telling hunters all the good things
they were doing on their behalf. They were very solicitous of hunters' support.

Is that how the equivalent bureaucracy in Mass. behaves nowadays?
 

whacko

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By shortly after the war, the NYS Conservation Department was so hungry for the funds
that they were putting a lot of effort into telling hunters all the good things
they were doing on their behalf. They were very solicitous of hunters' support.

Is that how the equivalent bureaucracy in Mass. behaves nowadays?
Ok so the way I read it is your ok with pit rob tax and what the funds go for.....as long as the funds are actually being used?
 

AHM

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Ok so the way I read it is your ok with pit rob tax and what the funds go for.....as long as the funds are actually being used?
I'm not OK with taxing non-hunting gear purchased by non-hunters.
 

whacko

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I'm not OK with taxing non-hunting gear purchased by non-hunters.
Been that way since 1937 and it's not going away any time.soon.

Fwiw those funds don't just support game animals that hunters like.....the funds support conservation for all wildlife. But I can tell you've already made up your mind on the subject.
 

djbradles

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There’s a lot to be said about good forest management practices and the end goal is going to differ greatly for the landholder. Clear cutting can be a great practice but also can result in a poor outcome. We have a smaller amount of mast trees in Ma year after year. We used to have massive Chestnuts. All gone. We do not have old growth forest in Ma except for the far reaches of Western Ma where the mountains inhibited the farming denizens from clear cut @whacko. What we have in most of Ma is second growth or successional growth. You can clearcut forests, sure, but you may end up with non nut producing species like red maple and birch. You’ll also get beech in abundance but due to the disease it’s not so good now. Actually you may be guaranteed to get just that. And to be sure that is exactly what happened when Ma was clearcut in the 18th-19th century. It was mainly beech forests thereafter.

The most common mast trees now are the oaks, hickory, and beech. Beech is being decimated by beech bark disease and now rarely reaches nut producing status. Hickory are not nearly as common as Quercus and Fagaceae. If we have but one foreign pest or disease come and destroy the oaks that would seriously decimate the wildlife populations. Deer, turkey, squirrels, etc. greatly rely on mast. We’re one crisis away thanks to globalization.

I have 25 acres and will be doing a selective cut for multiple reasons in a management plan. I don’t bird hunt a lot so grouse and other migratory fowl are of a little less interest to me wrt to deer, turkey, etc. in my hunting. That doesn’t mean I don’t care for the health of that population as there are many angles to consider and what type of animal or plant you want to thrive.
 

dixidawg

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You didn't hear a word I said about clear cutting or read anything from the ruffed grouse society article did you?

1. There are ruffed grouse and hare up north because they clear cut.

2. Mass is mostly old growth forest due to lack of clear cutting over the long term....which is why we have deer and turkey in abundance but not grouse, rabbit and hare

3. Who cares what the former land owner thinks about what dfw did as far as clear cutting? There is a management intent behind the clear cutting. Yes....it can look like crap for a few years. Don't be obtuse.....and look at the goal over the long term.


This same thing happened in some areas in the Brookfields many years ago. Dfw proposed and planned for clear cutting many mid size lots for grouse habitat... and to bring back some diverse habitat. Soccer moms and pseudo hippies had a stroke.....media outlets heard their bitching and moaning.....headlines read "Massachusetts chainsaw massacre". Guess what you can find on that land 12 years later? Grouse.....woodcock......whippoorwill......and cottonntail. But the soccer moms and hippie f***s thing they know everything.
Massachusetts chainsaw massacre follow up:

 

djbradles

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Been that way since 1937 and it's not going away any time.soon.

Fwiw those funds don't just support game animals that hunters like.....the funds support conservation for all wildlife. But I can tell you've already made up your mind on the subject.
The amount of land obtained for conservation and public use is staggering. I admit I’m not too concerned about the prices of licensing and stamps at this juncture just for the mere fact of the land tracts preserved.
 

71montess

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Been that way since 1937 and it's not going away any time.soon.

Fwiw those funds don't just support game animals that hunters like.....the funds support conservation for all wildlife. But I can tell you've already made up your mind on the subject.
He don’t like to kill furry things.
 

whacko

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There’s a lot to be said about good forest management practices and the end goal is going to differ greatly for the landholder. Clear cutting can be a great practice but also can result in a poor outcome. We have a smaller amount of mast trees in Ma year after year. We used to have massive Chestnuts. All gone. We do not have old growth forest in Ma except for the far reaches of Western Ma where the mountains inhibited the farming denizens from clear cut @whacko. What we have in most of Ma is second growth or successional growth. You can clearcut forests, sure, but you may end up with non nut producing species like red maple and birch. You’ll also get beech in abundance but due to the disease it’s not so good now. Actually you may be guaranteed to get just that. And to be sure that is exactly what happened when Ma was clearcut in the 18th-19th century. It was mainly beech forests thereafter.

The most common mast trees now are the oaks, hickory, and beech. Beech is being decimated by beech bark disease and now rarely reaches nut producing status. Hickory are not nearly as common as Quercus and Fagaceae. If we have but one foreign pest or disease come and destroy the oaks that would seriously decimate the wildlife populations. Deer, turkey, squirrels, etc. greatly rely on mast. We’re one crisis away thanks to globalization.

I have 25 acres and will be doing a selective cut for multiple reasons in a management plan. I don’t bird hunt a lot so grouse and other migratory fowl are of a little less interest to me wrt to deer, turkey, etc. in my hunting. That doesn’t mean I don’t care for the health of that population as there are many angles to consider and what type of animal or plant you want to thrive.
Old growth was not the correct term to use I know that. Mass is about 35% oak hickory forest and 25% maple/beech now. The stuff your talking about.....disease in trees......one of the best management plans against it is more biodiversity. Clear cutting does creat diversity. Clear cutting is not deforestation......its a forest management practice. Deforestation is clear cutting.....removing the stumps......some or most of the humus layer.....and changing or then managing the land so forest cannot grow back. By the way......farming is deforestation. Pasture land is deforestation. Its not just sub divisions that cause deforestation. But mass is actually the 6th most forested state by % of land covered in forest. Try telling a know it all soccer mom these facts. They just don't believe it.


I got my bachelor's in forestry from UMass ahmherst. Where did you get yours?
 
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whacko

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Massachusetts chainsaw massacre follow up:

Should be required reading for soccer moms.

I heard the Audubon society supported that project but was very silent on it because they didn't want to alienate their financial support base.
 

djbradles

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Old growth was not the correct term to use I know that. Mass is about 35% oak hickory forest and 25% maple/beech now. The stuff your talking about.....disease in trees......one of the best management plans against it is more biodiversity. Clear cutting does creat diversity. Clear cutting is not deforestation......its a forest management practice. Deforestation is clear cutting.....removing the stumps......some or most of the humus layer.....and changing or then managing the land so forest cannot grow back. By the way......farming is deforestation. Pasture land is deforestation. Its not just sub divisions that cause deforestation. But mass is actually the 6th most forested state by % of land covered in forest. Try telling a know it all soccer mom these facts. They just don't believe it.


I got my bachelor's in forestry from UMass ahmherst. Where did you get yours?
Scratching my head here. Where did we disagree again? Are you a forester? Clearcutting is a great practice, as I said.
 

whacko

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Scratching my head here. Where did we disagree again? Are you a forester? Clearcutting is a great practice, as I said.
We didn't disagree on anything except the use of the term old growth. Which I admitted I mis used. Then I went off on a tangent 😂

I'm not in forestry management.....wanted to be. Got my bs in forestry.....then went in the Army and spent a career. Got my masters in transportation and logistics.....and took a couple of electives in wildlife mgt and fisheries biology for interest.
 

AHM

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It was interesting to hear the proposition that the replacement trees
that come in after clear-cutting tend not to be mast-flavored.

You guys are making me wonder whether there's a natural progression
of tree families on the thousand-year time scale. Because around here
the glaciers certainly wiped the slate clean. And there would probably be
ebb and flow between types as the climate sloshes back and forth.

Any normal progression would have been disrupted in modern times
by logging and parasite pandemics from beyond the continent.
I am just old enough that I can remember being driven around Upstate NY
and the adults bemoaning that all the elms were dying of Dutch Elm disease.

But ignoring any regional shifts over the past few hundred years,
it seems like there has been a resurgence on a personal time-scale:

The 1950's/1960's Conservationist magazines frequently trotted out the distinction
between old-growth forests, and second growth; bemoaning the loss of primeval woodlands.
However sometime during this millennium I noticed something:
they seem to have gotten off that hobby-horse.

My suspicion is that adding another half-century of growth and decay
upon those second-growth forests has approached what the primeval
forests were like. So it was becoming a distinction without a difference.
Or maybe NYS D.E.C. just grew bored with forests when faced with Love Canal
and other hot new issues.

I'm not saying Massachusetts (for one) is all the way to restoration of the
forests that the Pilgrims encountered.
I know how the state was scalped in the 1800's.

But full restoration of the steady state forest can't take
more than 18,000 years because that's all it took last time.
 

Dadstoys

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do you think this would work?
or do they just start the ,, well no one wants to hunt anymore lets do something with all that land?
That's when the moonbats jump to our side of the fence.
That or they tell them the millions that hunters and fisherman used to kick in is going to have to be replaced by a nice tax increase.
 

Uzi2

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GOAL should keep their nose out of hunting and fishing revenue issues/license fees and stick to rights violations by government agencies.....aka cops and politicians.
 
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Dadstoys

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Hey folks, The Clam Cops, Swamp Cops or whatever you want to call them in Mass. do not work for Fish and Wildlife, The work under The Secretary of Energy and Environmental Affairs as a separate agency. They enforce all the laws and regulations that are under the umbrella of the Secretary.
It's all part of the package when you set foot in the woods in this state.
Moonbat either hears shots or sees people in orange.
Jumps on phone to either local PD or EPO's , "ERMAGOD there's people hunting, with guns and everything. "
Local PD is a crap shoot. It's either going to be a raving dickhead or someone who just has to come because someone called and has no interest in busting balls. I've seen both.
The EPO's .. If they show up it's going to be a ball busting festival , Every f*cking time. Never seen it any other way in 40 some odd years.

The sad part is , it was a Warden that got me started hunting as a kid and since him , I've never met one that was worth two dead flies.
A couple of years ago a group of them even took a deer from a friend even after they admitted he was in the right.
What are you going to do , shoot it out with them over a deer ?
Someone wanted some freezer meat and why do the work yourself ?

Then you have the real over the top moonbats who take it apon themselves to harass hunters.
I have a few good stories about them but I might get myself in trouble.
 
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It's all part of the package when you set foot in the woods in this state.
Moonbat either hears shots or sees people in orange.
Jumps on phone to either local PD or EPO's , "ERMAGOD there's people hunting, with guns and everything. "
Local PD is a crap shoot. It's either going to be a raving dickhead or someone who just has to come because someone called and has no interest in busting balls. I've seen both.
The EPO's .. If they show up it's going to be a ball busting festival , Every f*cking time. Never seen it any other way in 40 some odd years.

The sad part is , it was a Warden that got me started hunting as a kid and since him , I've never met one that was worth two dead flies.
A couple of years ago a group of them even took a deer from a friend even after they admitted he was in the right.
What are you going to do , shoot it out with them over a deer ?
Someone wanted some freezer meat and why do the work yourself ?

Then you have the real over the top moonbats who take it apon themselves to harass hunters.
I have a few good stories about them but I might get myself in trouble.
That means you never met me. If you have any doubts, ask enbloc about me.
 

groundscrapers

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Because they think it's an easy win?
Because they want to increase membership amongst the hunting-only audience?
We are in a state where you can't buy a new magazine that holds more than 10 rounds for your rifle or collapse the stock on your semi auto rifle. At this point I could really care less about how much it costs someone to go surfcasting on the cape.
 

Dadstoys

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I bet you are referring to B. B. and his crew????
He was one for sure.
I know someone who spotted him dangling from his safety harness on one of the Crane's hunts and got help.
I said dumbass , you should have kept walking.
He said if he had known it was him he might have thought about it.

The new young ones though are horrible.
I don't think a one of them has or has ever wanted to hunt .
They are political plums that no one else would give a badge to and view their mission to inflict as much pain on hunters and fishermen as possible.
Now I hear out in the western part of the state from guys that hunt out there , the relationship is far more cordial.

A friend of mine went out to PA on a lark to go bear hunting .
No idea of where to go or anything.
He stopped at the Wardens office and asked if there was any good places to go.
One of the wardens told him to hop in the truck and take a ride with him.
The warden took him to one of the many deer dumps off the highway and told him where to set up.
Sure enough he got a beauty that same evening.
He made sure to drop the warden off a nice roast before he headed back.

I thought he was lying based on what I've delt with here most of my life.
 
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He was one for sure.
I know someone who spotted him dangling from his safety harness on one of the Crane's hunts and got help.
I said dumbass , you should have kept walking.
He said if he had known it was him he might have thought about it.
I never heard about that. If I saw him he would still be there, but by the neck. A real piece of Shit!!! Last I heard and read that he had been arrested by Salisbury Police for Domestic Abuse and Intimidation of a witness.
 
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must be time to pad the pension plan and give everyone a raise.

Hey, you start eliminating hunters by making them a prohibited person you eliminate their right to hunt because they can't own a firearm. Why would they buy a hunting license?

So your oppressive gun control laws are hurting your bottom line.

They call that the trickle down effect and now they are asking the rest of us to dig deeper into our pockets to support their paychecks and retirement plans.

It's called getting effed every which way you can...
 
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You folks that still have a dog in that fight, Need to file a FOIA and ask the Fakers and Wankers,
How much money comes in from Pittman-Robinson and Wallop- Breaux?
Where is it being spent (By line item and Amount) ?
How much property has been purchased by "Land Stamp" Money and its location?
Is any of that land controlled by other organizations?
Is it open to hunting, fishing and trapping as required by law?
 
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