General mace and pepper spray questions

depicts said:
BaldKat, check with Jon Green at GOAL. He has OC spray built into a Kuboton key ring that works great. The Kuboton is an extra measure of protection. It's good stuff. Last time I checked it was about $35.
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Great, i have a kubotan from some years ago. That's great to see those two items together.
 
Chris said:
The only issue I have with the Kubaton version is that the range of the spray is about half that of the average canister. Be sure to pick up spares (and a 'training' one if available) and see for yourself.
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Good advice. When you see the range for yourself, you may or may not choose a different delivery vehicle. Unless, they have juiced them up a little.
 
depicts your assuming to much. So let me get this straight, if you had OC instead of deescalating a situation you would have got into a confrontation with the guy? Thats smart, and your giving me advice? OC is not the end all be all and if your carrying it for all the "other" scenarios your asking for trouble. In my opinion it doesn't work unless you have a static target letting you shoot them square in the face otherwise it just pisses them off.

But to each his own. If I ever have to use my firearm I would rather be able to say "I had no other choice" then "well I was carrying spray but decided to jump a few steps up the Force Continuum without trying other options" Remember what may seem so clear cut to you in a case of self-defense, may not be,to an overzealous DA. Why give them the wiggle room?
 
joehaus said:
depicts your assuming to much. So let me get this straight, if you had OC instead of deescalating a situation you would have got into a confrontation with the guy? Thats smart, and your giving me advice? OC is not the end all be all and if your carrying it for all the "other" scenarios your asking for trouble. In my opinion it doesn't work unless you have a static target letting you shoot them square in the face otherwise it just pisses them off.

But to each his own. If I ever have to use my firearm I would rather be able to say "I had no other choice" then "well I was carrying spray but decided to jump a few steps up the Force Continuum without trying other options" Remember what may seem so clear cut to you in a case of self-defense, may not be,to an overzealous DA. Why give them the wiggle room?
Click to expand...

joehaus, you are reading to much into these posts.
Do yourself a favor and retain a good attorney now.
If you ever get into the serious stuff, you are going to need one!
 
Nothing I have written is incorrect. Like it or not.

Maybe you should consult with an attorney if this is your advice to students.

"IE: Thug verbally threatens, you feel threatened, you spray. End of Story" Just assault people you feel threatened by, good advice.

On duty you have limited options because it's your job to deal with these people, "off duty" you can just walk away.

Your obviously can't see reason so I'm going to stop.

very foolish advice
 
joehaus said:
depicts your assuming to much. So let me get this straight, if you had OC instead of deescalating a situation you would have got into a confrontation with the guy? Thats smart, and your giving me advice? OC is not the end all be all and if your carrying it for all the "other" scenarios your asking for trouble. In my opinion it doesn't work unless you have a static target letting you shoot them square in the face otherwise it just pisses them off.

But to each his own. If I ever have to use my firearm I would rather be able to say "I had no other choice" then "well I was carrying spray but decided to jump a few steps up the Force Continuum without trying other options" Remember what may seem so clear cut to you in a case of self-defense, may not be,to an overzealous DA. Why give them the wiggle room?
Click to expand...

joehaus, I assume nothing. I never said instead of deescalating I would have gotten into a confrontation with the guy. I said I had three choices, ignore, fight or shoot, and I liked having a 4th choice, OC spray.

I also said this driver came at me and my wife, and that I watched to make sure he went away. I deliberately stayed out of his way and made sure there was no follow up. That's about as much deescalation as you can get.
I have been in some situations though where a conflict became inevitable, through no fault of my own. On one occasion, I used some of my martial arts training in defense of a neighbor being beat up by more than a dozen thugs in our neighborhood. One punk tried to hit me with something metal in his fist. I took him down with an ogoshi, and put a heavy thumb into his Adams apple until my son pulled me off him, and he left choking and coughing. I would have preferred to use OC in that same situation, as it would have prevented me from ending up on the ground choking the fool. It made me a pretty good target to get kicked while I was on the ground. With OC, he still would have left coughing and choking, but I'd have been on my feet and better able to respond to several other slimeballs who were still kicking my neighbor. In my takedown, I also lost my glasses, which was a definite disadvantage to me.

You're right, OC is not the end all, all in one tool. But once I had this particular fool on the ground I'm pretty sure I could have sprayed his face pretty good, and stood up and helped my neighbor get out from under several thugs who were wailing on him. It took more than an hour for police to respond to the call for help.

If I ever had to go to court because someone got shot, I'd rather be able to say, I had the option of using less lethal force. I was prepared to NOT shoot or fight the scumbag. If in fact I was forced to, on the "Continuum of force", use a firearm when deescalation, Command Voice, OC spray all failed, I think that is a better defense than going right to a firearm because that is the only self defense weapon you have.

Ever hear the old saw about when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail? Well if all you have is a gun, you really limit your choices.

Now I can't carry an ASP like a LEO, and while I'm pretty confident in my ability to handle myself, at least enough to "get away", I can and do carry OC at all times. It's another option.

By the way, in your first post, you never mentioned "deescalating" the confrontation, you just said you would rather have just a gun and not have to worry in such a stressful situation about having to use OC, "while I was off duty."

You know, you can go to the academy, and you can wear a badge and uniform, but that doesn't mean you are the expert in self defense or personal protection. I have a tad of experience myself, and outside the military I have never had to shoot at anyone. Don't fool yourself into thinking you know it all just because you wear a blue or black shirt. There are some "non-Leo's" who have a pretty good handle on how to handle themselves, and Big Daddy and I are two of them. There are many more on this forum, both LEO and military and regular citizens. There are several here I'd gladly stand back to back with in a tough situation, rather than with some wannabe who thinks they know it all.

I see you decided to challenge my answer rather than Big Daddy45... good choice. Maybe you're not as foolish as you make yourself sound. Keep working on that thought process and you might get to get your pension some day.

In the meantime, maybe you better understand who you are talking to on this forum before you continue to let your mouth make promises your not likely to be able to keep.

Welcome to the forum. Always nice to have a new person, especially one who brings so much info to us, untrained, unwashed masses.
 
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hillman said:
Anyway, after moving in to our new house and buying a brand new living room set from Jordans, our new puppy decided the overpriced coffee table looked like a delicious chew toy, and started gnawing on it the first day we had it. I, being the devlish genius that I am, thought of my trusty can of O.C.
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You know they make stuff just for this. I've got to get some pepper spray. I just got my LTC (ALP) but I'm not ready to carry yet.
 
Anybody know what any possible massachusetts penalties would be for using/possessing pepper spray and not being licensed? Someone i work with carries it and has no license. She is in no way concerned with any legal ramifications and claims "I will worry about it after I get attacked"

it's only $25 so it's no big deal to apply, but i just couldn't seem to convince her to even look into getting the restricted FID. Any info?
 
The thing about OC spray is that it might actually do the trick even if a deadly force response is warranted. Even in a justified deadly force response situation, life will be a hell of a lot easier watching the shitbag stumble off into the darkness than having to explain a lifeless heap of shit at your feet.


I'm not saying it eliminates the need for a firearm 100% of the time, just that dependent on the situation. it might be a viable option before reaching for a gun.
 
Baldkat82 said:
Anybody know what any possible massachusetts penalties would be for using/possessing pepper spray and not being licensed? Someone i work with carries it and has no license. She is in no way concerned with any legal ramifications and claims "I will worry about it after I get attacked"

it's only $25 so it's no big deal to apply, but i just couldn't seem to convince her to even look into getting the restricted FID. Any info?
Click to expand...


Consider Chapter 269, Section 10 (H)

(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.
 
WayneWong said:
Consider Chapter 269, Section 10 (H)

(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.
Click to expand...

U got it. Mace/OC is ammunition in MA
 
Baldkat82 said:
Anybody know what any possible massachusetts penalties would be for using/possessing pepper spray and not being licensed? Someone i work with carries it and has no license. She is in no way concerned with any legal ramifications and claims "I will worry about it after I get attacked"

it's only $25 so it's no big deal to apply, but i just couldn't seem to convince her to even look into getting the restricted FID. Any info?
Click to expand...

That's her personal choice, and though many on this forum would not see a problem in it, unfortunately it is ammunition, unfortunately she needs to have at a minimum a restricted FID, and unfortunately due to the nature of this forum we can not advise you or anyone to break any law. I would recommend telling her the laws, if she chooses to ignore it it's her personal issue.
 
Baldkat82 said:
it's only $25 so it's no big deal to apply,
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that is the sad part... that you still have to "apply" to by a none lethal defensive item that could save your life from an attacker. So i would dissagree that it is "no big deal"

think about it.

you have to apply - most towns, no simply task... you likely have to go in, fill out an application, then make an appointment with the officer that handles the licenses.

then you still have to pay $25 [rolleyes]

yet i can go to Dick's and pick up a pocket knife that does a whole hell of a lot more damage and is more "perminant".

I tell anyone i know that has pepper spray that they need a permit to be legal. But what they do beyond that is up to them.
 
Ok, i wasn't clear that pepper spray was considered ammo under state law. That explains why i was having trouble finding anything that directly referred to it under the MGL.

It is just crazy to me that she wants to make that choice. It's such a small dollar amount and it could save her some money and hassle later. Plus, if she ever gets in trouble, she'll either have a real hard time, or not be able to, get some type of license in MA.
 
Baldkat82 said:
Ok, i wasn't clear that pepper spray was considered ammo under state law.
Click to expand...

It is in the definition of the word ammunition, Chapter 140 Section 121:

“Ammunition”, cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun. The term “ammunition” shall also mean tear gas cartridges, chemical mace or any device or instrument which contains or emits a liquid, gas, powder or any other substance designed to incapacitate.
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http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
 
Arioch said:
Bedford charges $50 for a restricted FID.
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Report to GOAL ASAP!!!

In a real world situation, you wont have enough time to sit their and analyze whether you should use deadly force, or mace. It's going to be enough time for one or the other. This is where the firearm rains supreme. When you're in a situation where you still have some control, mace or pepper spray seems to be the prudent choice. I believe it would more easily convince a jury that you were in fear of your life had you used non-deadly defense with no success, and then used the firearm as a last means. Just my $.02 and we all know what the dollars worth....[thinking]
 
WayneWong said:
Consider Chapter 269, Section 10 (H)

(h)(1) Whoever owns, possesses or transfers a firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition without complying with the provisions of section 129C of chapter 140 shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $500. Whoever commits a second or subsequent violation of this paragraph shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than 2 years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or both. Any officer authorized to make arrests may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated this paragraph.
Click to expand...



Public Safety Committee Releases Exec. Report on Bills
The Committee also released a bill to remove the licensing laws for pepper spray, H2385 "An Act Relative to Increasing Accessibility to Non-lethal Self Defense Sprays". The bill does include an age restriction for possession and purchase at 18. It also adds some penalties for "offensive use" and restrictions for protection orders. In all it is a bill worth supporting.
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http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/house/185/ht02pdf/ht02385.pdf

P.S. Anybody know the status of H2385?
 
joehaus said:
I prefer pepper spray. Why would anyone want to carry around a chain with a spiked metal ball attached to it.[rofl]

Sorry I had to
Click to expand...

Excuse me Sir,


That's a Morning Star. A mace is a club with the ball (spiked or not) attached to the end. [wink]

We now rejoin our reguarly scheduled mayhem, already in progress...[smile]
 
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Baldkat82 said:
Ok, i wasn't clear that pepper spray was considered ammo under state law. That explains why i was having trouble finding anything that directly referred to it under the MGL.

It is just crazy to me that she wants to make that choice. It's such a small dollar amount and it could save her some money and hassle later. Plus, if she ever gets in trouble, she'll either have a real hard time, or not be able to, get some type of license in MA.
Click to expand...

I agree that she should get the permit...

sorry... i re-read my post and was a bit crass (big suprise there [wink])

my point was more to the lamness (yeah, I went there) that someone even needs a permit for O.C.

You would think that they would just be happy you are not looking to carry a gun being the bunch of libral wus bags they are. but... they just cant resist the chance to suck yet another couple of bucks from you.
 
depicts said:
joehaus, I assume nothing. I never said instead of deescalating I would have gotten into a confrontation with the guy. I said I had three choices, ignore, fight or shoot, and I liked having a 4th choice, OC spray.

I also said this driver came at me and my wife, and that I watched to make sure he went away. I deliberately stayed out of his way and made sure there was no follow up. That's about as much deescalation as you can get.
I have been in some situations though where a conflict became inevitable, through no fault of my own. On one occasion, I used some of my martial arts training in defense of a neighbor being beat up by more than a dozen thugs in our neighborhood. One punk tried to hit me with something metal in his fist. I took him down with an ogoshi, and put a heavy thumb into his Adams apple until my son pulled me off him, and he left choking and coughing. I would have preferred to use OC in that same situation, as it would have prevented me from ending up on the ground choking the fool. It made me a pretty good target to get kicked while I was on the ground. With OC, he still would have left coughing and choking, but I'd have been on my feet and better able to respond to several other slimeballs who were still kicking my neighbor. In my takedown, I also lost my glasses, which was a definite disadvantage to me.

You're right, OC is not the end all, all in one tool. But once I had this particular fool on the ground I'm pretty sure I could have sprayed his face pretty good, and stood up and helped my neighbor get out from under several thugs who were wailing on him. It took more than an hour for police to respond to the call for help.

If I ever had to go to court because someone got shot, I'd rather be able to say, I had the option of using less lethal force. I was prepared to NOT shoot or fight the scumbag. If in fact I was forced to, on the "Continuum of force", use a firearm when deescalation, Command Voice, OC spray all failed, I think that is a better defense than going right to a firearm because that is the only self defense weapon you have.

Ever hear the old saw about when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail? Well if all you have is a gun, you really limit your choices.

Now I can't carry an ASP like a LEO, and while I'm pretty confident in my ability to handle myself, at least enough to "get away", I can and do carry OC at all times. It's another option.

By the way, in your first post, you never mentioned "deescalating" the confrontation, you just said you would rather have just a gun and not have to worry in such a stressful situation about having to use OC, "while I was off duty."

You know, you can go to the academy, and you can wear a badge and uniform, but that doesn't mean you are the expert in self defense or personal protection. I have a tad of experience myself, and outside the military I have never had to shoot at anyone. Don't fool yourself into thinking you know it all just because you wear a blue or black shirt. There are some "non-Leo's" who have a pretty good handle on how to handle themselves, and Big Daddy and I are two of them. There are many more on this forum, both LEO and military and regular citizens. There are several here I'd gladly stand back to back with in a tough situation, rather than with some wannabe who thinks they know it all.

I see you decided to challenge my answer rather than Big Daddy45... good choice. Maybe you're not as foolish as you make yourself sound. Keep working on that thought process and you might get to get your pension some day.

In the meantime, maybe you better understand who you are talking to on this forum before you continue to let your mouth make promises your not likely to be able to keep.

Welcome to the forum. Always nice to have a new person, especially one who brings so much info to us, untrained, unwashed masses.
Click to expand...

Zing...
 
matt1956 said:
I agree that she should get the permit...

sorry... i re-read my post and was a bit crass (big suprise there [wink])

my point was more to the lamness (yeah, I went there) that someone even needs a permit for O.C.

You would think that they would just be happy you are not looking to carry a gun being the bunch of libral wus bags they are. but... they just cant resist the chance to suck yet another couple of bucks from you.
Click to expand...

It's all good, no offense taken. I def agree with you on the lameness on needing a permit. Hopefully H2385 passes and people no longer need a permit for mace.
 
Fooped said:
Excuse me Sir,


That's a Morning Star. A mace is a club with the ball (spiked or not) attached to the end. [wink]

We now rejoin our reguarly scheduled mayhem, already in progress...[smile]
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I think you are in error Fooped. A flail uses a chain between the ball and the handle. A mace is more like a club with metal flanges on the side near the end. A morning star has a spiked ball firmly fastened to the handle. (I've made them for ren faire use.)
 
 

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