Friggin' Liberal Doctors!

[bender73]

First of all, the lack of capitals and punctuation make it really difficult to read your posts, so would you please do us the courtesy of writing like an adult, rather than like a 13 year old girl?

Second, if you really are a physician, then your sense of self-importance, which oozes from your posts, underscores exactly why I will never, ever tell anyone in the medical profession that I am a lawful, licensed, gun owner, not even when they stand an inch away from the gun that's tucked in my waist, as some did last night.

A duty to report someone's dangerous behavior does not allow you people to collect data on your patients, for once that bell has been rung (and you know which of your patients are gun owners) you will jump to conclusions, assume the worst, and trigger events that lead to the person's license being taken away. You will do it smugly, "for the good of society," because you'd rather err on the side of caution.

I, for one, would appreciate it if you'd spend less time worrying about what I have in my house and more time studying some English books so that your future posts aren't as annoying to read. Of course, by writing that way you force those of us who read your posts to spend more time on each one, trying to decipher it, and that little bit of extra attention is just what a megalomaniacal doctor would love.

I've asked NetDoc if he or she owns guns and -- predictably -- he or she refused to answer. What about you, bender73? Are you a gun owner? If not, what the hell are you guys doing in a place like this?

I already answered the last part. If it makes you feel better, I will just say you win. There is no point in wasting time in this thread anymore. Many of you just don't get it. I tried to have an intellectual debate and all you can muster is to attack my grammar. LOL. Have a nice evening.

 

[Jose]

wow. thank goodness there are people like me.

You think too highly of yourself.

 

[Garys]

I already answered the last part. If it makes you feel better, I will just say you win. There is no point in wasting time in this thread anymore. Many of you just don't get it. I tried to have an intellectual debate and all you can muster is to attack my grammar. LOL. Have a nice evening.

We get it, it appears you don't. You've told half truths, at best, to defend your position. Your "intellectual debate" was mere condescension at it's peak.

You've not only failed to prevail in your arguments, you've undermined your profession in the process.

 

[bender73]

You think too highly of yourself.

yes, and for good reason.

 

[Garys]

yes, and for good reason.

Because no one else does?

That's rhetorical.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Bender and NetDoc:

Good for you guys for continuing to post in here. It shows you don't have thin skins. I like you both for that.

Here's the problem people have with this whole subject... (you're about to get a rare long post from me - I apologize in advance)


Here are some facts:

1. You both have the 'power' as physicians (I assume you're both real doctors) to report your patients to the authorities.

2. If you were to do that in Mass, any person that you report would instantaneously have all of his firearms and ammo seized, and his license 'temporarily' revoked.

3. Even if you immediately recanted your reservations, it would be up to the local chief of police to re-instate the revokee's license.

4. There is NO upside for the chief to do that. None. His long and short term safe CYA move is to refuse that person his license.

5. There is no recourse for the individual that had his license revoked.

Those are the facts. You both wield power that most non-LEO members here do not. Think about that for a second...

There are many people here that make a significant portion of their income through firearms-related activities. Your reporting them to the authorities would ruin them. Picture an auto mechanic that could permanently revoke your medical license because you didn't change your oil. That's the way people are looking at this.

Before you dismiss that statement as hyperbole, consider that there are people here with $10's or $100's of thousands of dollars invested in firearms collections that they would never be able to recover because of the corrupt 'bonded warehouse' laws in Mass (look it up).

So in review, you drop a dime on someone, they lose their life savings and ability to make a living.

The rest is a matter of perception.

You both are probably incredulous that you're being shit on and likened to Hitler because you feel the duty to do what you think is the right thing. You picture someone coming in to see you that is clearly (in your opinion) a ticking time bomb. Someone that's in the middle of a psychotic episode, like, raving 'astronaut-diaper' crazy, waving a gun around. You want to call the cops before the guy accidentally shoots himself or your receptionist.

What people here are picturing is a rich, doughy, lazy city guy with low self esteem, that finished last in his medical school class (last week), whose hot receptionist (that he fantasizes about) gushed to him about an article she read about a 'heroic' doctor that 'saved lives' by reporting a lunatic to the police. He's at his crappy job in the sticks, when an older scraggly-bearded eccentric guy comes in with weird answers to the standard AMA questions. The guy's a Viet Nam vet, and he can't be bothered with the newbie doc, and rubs him the wrong way.

The doc dislikes him, and decides to kill two birds with one stone: **** with the weird guy, and get into his receptionists pants.

There is literally nothing stopping the guy from ruining the old guy's life. Nothing.

This is what is going on here. I hope you can see both sides.

 

[LadySmith]

Awesome post, Eddie Coyle, very well stated!!

I saw this post from bender73 in another thread, and it indicates that bender73 is a dangerous doctor because he or she really, really gets off on the power trip: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...n-Everett-MA?p=2583040&viewfull=1#post2583040

. . . I use training and judgement all the time in my job. In fact, I can strip someone of their freedom with a section order if I personally feel they are a threat to themselves and/or others. Our world is filled with maybes and unknowns. We have rights, absolutely. But we also have a duty to protect others and sometimes that means stepping on someone's rights.

please do not take that as anti-gun or anti-freedom. I am 99% in favor of the GOV leaving us alone. I am ONLY talking about the few cases that we must recognize as potentially dangerous. This is where I think MA is trying to use suitability as a defense. I do not agree if it is because the PD dislikes you shirt so they deny an LTC. The fall down drunk who has no statutory disqualifies that has shown to be unstable, well, we need to use our heads.

Apparently this "doctor" (if he or she really is one, and that's doubtful) is really into the whole, "stripping someone of freedom" thing. Sounds to me like a frustrated person who didn't make it into law enforcement. And if the person is, in fact, a physician, then SCREW HIM OR HER. Screw all friggin' doctors. They are the most egotistical, self-important, egomaniacal, misguided, blow-hards ever to work in this great country. Screw them.

 

[bender73]

great post Eddie. thank you. and i am not what Ladysmith says.

i truly came here with good intentions and love going to the range. i am a jeans and T-shirt dad that does not want to take anyone's gun away. i have been trashed and bashed for trying to speak my mind. i am in a ton of student loan debt and don't live the high life. i don't think i am better than anyone, but i have been labeled as a jerk so far and yet i have never really revealed much about me personally.

i do understand what you say and respect that.

anyway, i feel like anything i say from this point forward will be twisted and turned so i will retire from this thread, maybe from the site. i am clearly not welcomed despite my desire to hold an LTC and frequent the range. it sucks because people have been very welcoming in the MA Law forum here. i venture into the General forum and tried to throw my 2 cents in.

but, your post was awesome Eddie and i really appreciate your open mind. regards.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Awesome post, Eddie Coyle, very well stated!!

I saw this post from bender73 in another thread, and it indicates that bender73 is a dangerous doctor because he or she really, really gets off on the power trip: .

Easy Tiger. Like I said, it's a matter of perception. He's not a bad guy (he's here after all) . He's picturing a dangerous lunatic.

He doesn't yet realize that it is inherently wrong that one citizen can ruin another by mistake or whim.

 

[bender73]

He doesn't yet realize that it is inherently wrong that one citizen can ruin another by mistake or whim.

i realize it. ...and i take that responsibility VERY serious.

in 10+ years i have not done anything "on a whim." i also hope that i have never been wrong. i can also say that i personally don't know anyone in medicine (that i have worked with) that ever had ill-intentions. most docs and nurses are in it for the right reason. that said, mistakes happen, even to the best people.

 

[EddieCoyle]

i realize it. ...and i take that responsibility VERY serious.

in 10+ years i have not done anything "on a whim."

You? No.

But I'm sure you can see that the law leaves open the possibility for abuse. Right?

 

[Coyote33]

There was this guy with a funny mustache waaaay back in the day. Very charismatic fellow, I think. He won an election with over 90% of the vote. I believe his government had some doctors who just did what was required by law. I mean, they were stand up guys, right? Just doing what was right in the eyes of the law. Being "good" doctors.

What does Teddy Roosevelt have to do with anything? ;-)

Wasn't an analogy, just stating history and hoping people realize that all it takes are baby steps to eventually get there.

People don't seem to learn from history, unfortunately.

no, it was in poor taste. this thread has really taken a bad turn.

I'd say it took that turn many posts earlier.

wow. thank goodness there are people like me.

What would we ever do without people like you?

... I've asked NetDoc if he or she owns guns and -- predictably -- he or she refused to answer. What about you, bender73? Are you a gun owner? If not, what the hell are you guys doing in a place like this?

Good point. Maybe they are here to shower their smarts on "all those unwashed masses".

That is what I said. I do serve society in my job. He seems to be very antisocial.

Wow. Who is antisocial? Is there a requirement for someone to be social?

You seem to overweigh your self-importance in this world. I remember when I trained in Zen. We used to use some space in a YMCA. The teacher asked us what group acts like the biggest jerks in the place. Some said teenagers, some said weightlifters, others said the staff. I said the tennis players. He said that was the correct answer. They are mostly doctors and lawyers, who think they are more important than other people, and act like little babies, storming in and demanding attention of the staff, or having a tantrum when there were no courts available. Sure, I have some respect for the long schooling doctors go through, and their knowledge of things medical. As soon as they start in with their ego trips, I check out. Oh, my zen teacher was a clinical psychologist PHD.

 

[cekim]

You? No.

But I'm sure you can see that the law leaves open the possibility for abuse. Right?

I think that's the part the docs are tripping on. They can't step back and realize we are looking at this not based on their individual track record, or even our personal experiences on the other side. As I said, I have never personally run into a doctor treating me for which I had a concern.

We, as potential victims of this system, have to look at it as a matter of principle and look at the worst the system has to offer and drive policy based on that.

The whole concept of this nation is that governance must be kept on a short leash at all times because "the path to hell is paved with good intentions." Even a system of doctors and law enforcement with the best of intentions without restraint WILL become abusive.

So, netdoc and bender are thinking from the perspective of what THEY personally would do, but we have to look at the system as a whole from the perspective of what was done in recently in Virginia and in the past in China, Russia, Germany, Massachusetts, Tuskegee, and the list goes on...

Doctors, this is not a hypothetical problem. There is a deep pile of bodies on this one.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Sure, I have some respect for the long schooling doctors go through, and their knowledge of things medical. As soon as they start in with their ego trips, I check out.

Part of the problem is the pseudo-royalty status doctors have assumed in society. "Doctor" is the only profession (other than perhaps Senator, Governor and President) that becomes part of your name and is even used outside your professional environment (giving your name when making a restaurant reservation, etc.). Some of the younger docs are getting bit less imperial, but there are still vestiges of their elevation in a caste system. Even college professors (except for a few pompous ones) don't demand that people outside the academic environment address them by title.

 

[LadySmith]

I'm glad the alleged doctors posted here because their statements confirm for me what I think is behind the intrusive question that I encountered on the form at a real doctor's office the other night. I'm more resolved than ever to lie to doctors' faces, never tell them what's really going on, and hustle them through the exam if they try to dig too deeply into my personal life "for the good of society."

In more than this thread bender73 has posted about the duty to save the world that is incumbent upon him or her because he or she is allegedly a licensed physician. He or she comes off like some super-hero wannabe, who's a little too enthusiastic about weeding the crazy gun nuts out of society. Maybe he or she is wearing the cape just a little too tightly; maybe the oxygen's cut off. But for whatever reason, this person confirms what I thought.

Nobody has any reason to single out guns for a questionnaire, when butter knives, anti-freeze, screwdrivers, clotheslines, the showerhead in my bathrooms, and even my dogs can be just as lethal.

I hate doctors, as a class of people. I happen to have some very amazing ones in my life, but they are atypical. Most doctors I've met think they're better than the rest of us, get a boner when they think about the power that they wield, and think we're all a bunch of dummies. Most of them didn't learn a thing when Dr. Petit's family was savagely raped, tortured, brutalized, and killed -- all because Dr. Petit failed to protect his family by having a gun in the house. I DO BLAME DR. PETIT. A husband and wife have duty to protect their kids, and a simple handgun in the house -- even an itty, bitty Lady Smith -- would have changed the outcome of that home invasion.

Most doctors I've met are the most annoying people in society. They'd still rather see all guns removed from the hands of law-abiding citizens, so screw them.

On the other hand, as I said, I do know a few good ones. In fact, I'm having lunch with an awesome one today, and I'm bringing her a copy of this awesome book by Massachusetts native Jim Grover: http://www.amazon.com/Street-Smarts...TF8&qid=1348837361&sr=1-1&keywords=jim+grover.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Nobody has any reason to single out guns for a questionnaire, when butter knives, anti-freeze, screwdrivers, clotheslines, the showerhead in my bathrooms,

Actually, I had the showerhead singled out in questioning after a medical procedure. I was advised to remove it and soak it in a bleach solution to kill any lurking bacteria.

Most doctors I've met think they're better than the rest of us, get a boner when they think about the power that they wield, and think we're all a bunch of dummies.

A big problem I have experienced is technically excellent doctors who tell patients what they "need" to know rather than a full overview of their situation.

 

[cekim]

Actually, I had the showerhead singled out in questioning after a medical procedure. I was advised to remove it and soak it in a bleach solution to kill any lurking bacteria.

They should cover this in home-ec... Those things are nasty...

 

[Gidge]

Part of the problem is the pseudo-royalty status doctors have assumed in society. "Doctor" is the only profession (other than perhaps Senator, Governor and President) that becomes part of your name and is even used outside your professional environment (giving your name when making a restaurant reservation, etc.). Some of the younger docs are getting bit less imperial, but there are still vestiges of their elevation in a caste system. Even college professors (except for a few pompous ones) don't demand that people outside the academic environment address them by title.

This. pseudo-royalty status and ... there are still vestiges of their elevation in a caste system

Once again follow the money...the huge foundations (way back when) had a vested interest in the disease theory of medicine to increase profits via a eugenics plarform. If you've noticed the only things being built in these tough economic times are hospitals, pharmacies and funeral homes --- coincidence, -- I think not ?

 

[Coyote33]

some reference reading:

Gun Control is a Public Health Issue

Humor: Gun Control?

Letter to the Editor: Gun Control or Doctor Control

Gun Query Off Limits for Doctors in Florida

Physicians for Social Responsibility

Several PSR chapters are also active in the gun control movement, working to ban handguns in the United States.[4][5][6]

Florida Doctors Fight Back Against Gun Lobby Gag Law

Florida loses another ridiculous legal battle ... A Miami federal judge has struck down the new law prohibiting Florida doctors from discussing gun ownership with their patients.

Gun Control Alert: Beware of your Doctors Office Questionnaire?



In 2005, a group of scholars reviewed the literature on gun control for the American Journal of Preventive Medicine. Here’s their conclusion: “Based on identified studies reviewed in this report, the evidence is insufficient to determine whether the Unites States firearm laws affect violence.”



Finally:

DRGO Information » Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership

 

[jcr]

The NEJM "perspective" was written 4 years ago. By Hemenway. We know him. We know his agenda. He never strays.

The piece quotes (and netdoc parrots) an article that "conclusively" shows "blah, blah..." Wait! Hemenway is quoting himself. The article that surveyed the literature was also written by Hemenway. We've read enough of him to suspect that the only literature he surveyed was that which agreed with his conclusion.

That's all a heck of an argument.

Btw, jumping off buildings or bridges is as effective and final as a GSW.

--jcr

 

[Palladin]

Every 6mos or so, I post in this type of thread, this is from February '08

when my now 9yo son was 1yo, we took him a a local Ped for a checkup. after the usual stuff, he starts asking about if we drink, how much, etc. I'm getting a little pissed....as he's writing all this down. Then he asks if there are any guns in the house..."that's none of your F'ing business"...him: 'well, we just want to make sure that any weapons are stored securely and not available to children" me: "again, that's none of your F'ing business"..him: "are your weapons secured properly?" me: (as I stand up and lift my sweatshirt displaying my G23) "yeah, I think it's pretty secure"
he shit a football and that was the end of the questions.....as we're leaving my wife says.."you always have to be a showoff don't you?'

 

[dcmdon]

Go google "failed suicide by gun" and get back to us on that.

If I wanted to check out I'd grab some Oxycodone, some Jack, and the car keys. Close off the garage, start the car, eat the pills, down the bottle, and nighty night.

Here's the thing. And I'm perfectly willing to grant the Antis this.

Teenagers are impulsive. They tend not to plan their suicides like middle aged people do. A friend of my fathers wrote a 5 page handwritten note to his family, rigged up multiple eyelets to the floor joists in his basement, stood on a bucket, put a noose around his neck and jumped off.

Planning, determination etc. However, after all that, the cops said it looked like he tried to escape the noose after he jumped.

People who cut themselves or take drugs often change their minds after they begin. This means that statistically there is a significant "failure" rate. I'd guess that many of these failures never even make it into statistics because law enforcement is never called.

Firearms are different. There's no backing out. You are dead within a second of making the decision to die. Thus a lower failure rate.

So if a person has a choice between something that requires a lot of planning like oxycodone and/or hanging and something that can be done impulsively with little preparation, they'll take the easy road. Often a firearm is that easy route.

I say this because I believe that it is a person's right to commit suicide if they so desire. You own your own life, you have the right to take it. Its not government's right to tell you what you can do with it.

No big surprise here that guns are an effective means of taking our own life. Big deal.

Are we supposed to draw some kind of conclusion from that?

Don

p.s. if we are talking about the use of a firearm by a minor to commit suicide, we are talking about a different thing. The parents "own" that juvenile's life. Its the parents responsibility to keep that child away from whatever he or she might use to hurt themselves.

 

[Jose]

Firearms are different. There's no backing out. You are dead within a second of making the decision to die. Thus a lower failure rate.

Same with jumping off tall objects like bridges. Once you go, there is no turning back.

So what was your point again?

 

[AntiHippie]

Same with jumping off tall objects like bridges. Once you go, there is no turning back.

So what was your point again?

Some dude did both out here last year - stood on the edge of the Thomas Creek Bridge (I think it's the tallest bridge in the state) and ate a round.

Safe to say he was NOT just seeking attention.

 

[dcmdon]

Same with jumping off tall objects like bridges. Once you go, there is no turning back.

So what was your point again?

I think I said it. Killing yourself with a gun gives you no time to change your mind and back out. (Just like jumping off a bridge.)
So people tend to be more successful at killing themselves with guns.

But so what. If thats their will. So be it.

 

[pastera]

As a person who has had a very close loved one make the choice it hurts like hell but I fully support the RIGHT of an individual to end their own life as they see fit. Given the circumstances of poor and failing health with the other burdens of life that come from debilitating conditions, this person was put into a position where they made the choice.

With another family member standing watch, I cut up a beautiful S&W stainless 357 that had fired only one shot ever. Buried it on my land where it will stand as a reminder to me that true freedom is painful to all involved.

That a doctor would have the power to steal that choice from someone is abhorrent to our fundamental beliefs. Who has the right to tell a person that they are not suffering enough? That they need to suffer through pain or the embarrassment of drugging oneself up to the point of loosing clarity or bodily control? That someone feels qualified to do so shows they place themself on par with God.

Food for though:
Would those doctors also reject the extinguishing of a life by a choice made in proxy for someone not able to express?

 

[Serapis]

I am not sure why people get so bent out of shape about this question. Answer it or don't. Who cares? It means nothing, it does nothing. Your doctor probably doesn't even care about the answer. It's just a standard medical question.

Some people say mind your own business. He's your doctor. You went to him for help by choice. You chose him by choice. Which makes that statement even more ridiculous.

 

[Sterg]

I think it's Obamacare. My daughter had a physical and they asked her if there was a gun in the house. She said yes. After that they grilled my wife if there was a safe, lock, if the ammo was seperated. We are sending an email of complaint. My daughter runs cross country and the doctor said in the report she was underweight for her height, but she didn't mention that to my wife. I am outraged. I was going to start a new thread, but I saw this one. I will go back to read all the posts. Subscribed.

 

[LadySmith]

I feel bad for you Sterg, 'cause the libtards in the medical community who are just looking for any reason they can to disarm law-abiding citizens, already have you down for "two strikes" in the file they're maintaining on your family.

I have been considering whether to adopt or not. We have tons of money and lots of disposable income, and we'd love to bless an underprivileged baby or child (especially one with "special needs" like Down Syndrome). On the other hand, though, posts like Serg's remind me that once a child is in my home, we'll be subject to not only scrutiny but also Nazj and socialist tactics.

Sorry, kids. You're gonna have to stay in our oprhanages. I'd rather have my gun rights undistiurbed than let any of the mother****ers in the school and medical community come after me.

 

[Jose]

I think it's Obamacare. My daughter had a physical and they asked her if there was a gun in the house. She said yes. After that they grilled my wife if there was a safe, lock, if the ammo was seperated. We are sending an email of complaint. My daughter runs cross country and the doctor said in the report she was underweight for her height, but she didn't mention that to my wife. I am outraged. I was going to start a new thread, but I saw this one. I will go back to read all the posts. Subscribed.

I do not allow my daughter to be examined alone by any physician.