FFL's that won't release a transfer after three days if no proceed on a nics check

Shooter's had to once retrieve a gun AFTER they released it after the 3 day "grace" when the buyer ended up getting a denial later on. This is why they no longer release guns until they get a "proceed."
 
FrugalFannie said:
Shooter's had to once retrieve a gun AFTER they released it after the 3 day "grace" when the buyer ended up getting a denial later on. This is why they no longer release guns until they get a "proceed."
Click to expand...
This rings false. I have had denials occur after releasing the gun on or after the Brady date. The ATF calls to inform of the denial and I supply the 4473. It is not my job to retrieve the firearm or in anyway engage with the buyer who was denied. Shooters took upon themselves something that was not required (again).

I am not saying they did not tell you this happened. I am saying Shooters was not required to retrieve the gun but may have chosen to.

The system is simple if you don’t make shit up (shooters, not you)
 
FrugalFannie said:
Shooter's had to once retrieve a gun AFTER they released it after the 3 day "grace" when the buyer ended up getting a denial later on. This is why they no longer release guns until they get a "proceed."
Click to expand...
They may have volunteered, but they didn't "have" to. The one time I was involved in something like this I offered to contact the buyer and have them bring the gun to me so an AFT visit to the home didn't have to happen.
 
Pretty sure I'd rather get a call from a gun shop than a visit from the ATF.
It's just as likely that Shooters wanted to help the buyer by keeping the ATF a little less involved.
 
wcorey said:
Why I’m questioning it is because this isn’t just shooters.
I figured if push came to shove I could get them to transfer it to another shop up the street and start over but found the next nearest shop to have the same policy. Then in talking to others about it apparently a number of other shops do the same.

It’s a bad precedent and seems to be spreading…
Click to expand...
Shop I know well released a firearm after the 3 day period as the law permits (not as required as some seem to think) came back 3 weeks later they guy was a felon. ATF told the shop to go "get the gun back" No more 3 day release after that. Approved, denied, or wait until the shop gets one or the other. Sucks, but the until the feds can figure their shit out it doesnt make sense to do anything different.
 
**DRB** said:
Shop I know well released a firearm after the 3 day period as the law permits (not as required as some seem to think) came back 3 weeks later they guy was a felon. ATF told the shop to go "get the gun back" No more 3 day release after that. Approved, denied, or wait until the shop gets one or the other. Sucks, but the until the feds can figure their shit out it doesnt make sense to do anything different.
Click to expand...
How exactly does the shop "go get the gun back" from this felon? Do they have their own Gun Shop SWAT Team? When they call him (assuming they have a valid phone number, and he even answers), and they say "Gimme back" and he says "Suck me off," what happens then?
 
CrackPot said:
I have been sent forged/photoshopped FFL licenses from scammers. This is not a theoretical issue
Click to expand...

Really? That sucks, as if our community doesn't have to deal with enough BS in other spots. Has anyone been caught using one? I was trying to find a case but haven't found any yet. I'd imagine it would be hard to track if someone covered themselves decently and the gun shop was in on it, but played dumb "I don't know, it looked like a legit FFL"

one-eyed Jack said:
And the way I operate I don't have to worry about that. If you want me to be more "loose" with my FFL you can put $50k cash in escrow to help if I get into trouble. Jack.
Click to expand...

lol I don't want that, I was just curious to if that had actually happened before. I hadn't thought of that kind of scenario until your post and was just like damn...that would really suck for the FFL being faked if now you have to spend time and money proving this wasn't you and you had nothing to do with it
 
ScottS said:
How exactly does the shop "go get the gun back" from this felon? Do they have their own Gun Shop SWAT Team? When they call him (assuming they have a valid phone number, and he even answers), and they say "Gimme back" and he says "Suck me off," what happens then?
Click to expand...
In this case the shop owner called the local PD to accompany him and he drove over and picked it up. Has happened more than once. Once was on a no response and a release after 3 days and the other was on a "proceed" that turned into a denied.
 
**DRB** said:
In this case the shop owner called the local PD to accompany him and he drove over and picked it up. Has happened more than once. Once was on a no response and a release after 3 days and the other was on a "proceed" that turned into a denied.
Click to expand...
Makes you wonder why the ATF didn't just cut out the middle man and go directly to the local PD.
 
mikeyp said:
Really? That sucks, as if our community doesn't have to deal with enough BS in other spots. Has anyone been caught using one? I was trying to find a case but haven't found any yet. I'd imagine it would be hard to track if someone covered themselves decently and the gun shop was in on it, but played dumb "I don't know, it looked like a legit FFL"



lol I don't want that, I was just curious to if that had actually happened before. I hadn't thought of that kind of scenario until your post and was just like damn...that would really suck for the FFL being faked if now you have to spend time and money proving this wasn't you and you had nothing to do with it
Click to expand...
In my case the scammer got money from at least one person, but most of the guys he tried to scam got a little tingling of the Spidey senses. Decently clever setup, the guy created a gmail account close to mine and would have another one for the Armslist account - he got money, said the FFL will handle shipping and then he'd transition to the fake FFL email for further communication about the pending shipping, which never happened of course. I had several people send me details and forward me all the info once they realized it was a scam, all of which was sent to the local AFT office in Boston. "We'll look in to it." was the response, zero follow up and no request for further info. They didn't contact the guy who had money stolen, or anyone else who was in contact with the scammer. Couldn't have cared less, and based on discussions with other FFL's who have recently gone through the same thing it's a common theme. Must be too busy filling out scorecards for pistol braces.
 
We have been in business as long as shooters, have never held the firearm past the lawful time we are required to in this scenario type, have never had an issue and would never do it in the future. We have enough laws... no need to make up our own. PS... we also follow Federal law when it comes to purchasing ammo... I.E. we don't enforce other state laws like several others do. Because.... well, again.... don't we have enough laws??
-K
 
Behind Enemy Lines said:
In my case the scammer got money from at least one person, but most of the guys he tried to scam got a little tingling of the Spidey senses. Decently clever setup, the guy created a gmail account close to mine and would have another one for the Armslist account - he got money, said the FFL will handle shipping and then he'd transition to the fake FFL email for further communication about the pending shipping, which never happened of course. I had several people send me details and forward me all the info once they realized it was a scam, all of which was sent to the local AFT office in Boston. "We'll look in to it." was the response, zero follow up and no request for further info. They didn't contact the guy who had money stolen, or anyone else who was in contact with the scammer. Couldn't have cared less, and based on discussions with other FFL's who have recently gone through the same thing it's a common theme. Must be too busy filling out scorecards for pistol braces.
Click to expand...

Our tax dollars at work...
 
**DRB** said:
Shop I know well released a firearm after the 3 day period as the law permits (not as required as some seem to think) came back 3 weeks later they guy was a felon. ATF told the shop to go "get the gun back" No more 3 day release after that. Approved, denied, or wait until the shop gets one or the other. Sucks, but the until the feds can figure their shit out it doesnt make sense to do anything different.
Click to expand...
What am amazingly lazy ATF agent. It is not the gun dealers job but the ATFs job to handle this situation. Just WOW
 
CrackPot said:
What am amazingly lazy ATF agent. It is not the gun dealers job but the ATFs job to handle this situation. Just WOW
Click to expand...
As described in the September, 2016 DoJ’s Office of the Inspector General "Audit of the Handling of Firearms Purchase Denials
Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System”:

As previously explained, the Brady Act allows dealers (but does not require them) to transfer firearms to customers after 3-business days, unless such transfer is prohibited by state law. As a result, where there has been a delayed denial, ATF policy requires the field office to investigate and generally recover firearms that were transferred prior to the denial. Such recoveries may involve:
  • ATF identifying the whereabouts of the customer and retrieving the firearm;
  • ATF notifying the prohibited person who then voluntarily returns the firearm
    to the dealer;
  • the prohibited person transferring the firearm to a non-prohibited third party of his or her choosing, provided that the third party does not reside with the prohibited person and the third party agrees not to provide the prohibited person with access to the firearm; or
  • in extenuating circumstances, ATF enlisting local law enforcement to assist in seizing the firearm from a prohibited person.
Click to expand...
In no circumstance is the FFL required to retrieve the firearm.
 
Interesting little factoid in reading the above mentioned audit. The auditors looked at a sample of transactions that resulted in a firearm being transferred when the NICS check should have resulted in a denial:

Fifty-nine were initially approved by FBI NICS Examiners or Call Center Representatives in error, but these transactions should have been denied. Prior to our audit, the FBI’s quality control checks identified 57 (97 percent) of these errors as a part of its internal review process and updated the NICS records to denied status, with 54 of these identified and the denial communicated to the dealer within 2 days of the error. The quality control checks identified the three other erroneously approved transactions and communicated the corrected denials to the dealer between 6 and 19 business days after the request. In all 59 instances, firearms were transferred to prohibited persons prior to the errors being corrected, and prior to the denials being communicated to the dealer. The FBI referred the denied transactions to ATF to recover any firearms that were inappropriately transferred. ATF determined that in many instances, the firearm was recovered by the dealer before an ATF field division received the case for investigation and possible retrieval, so that only 16 firearms required recovery by ATF as a result of these 59 errors, and it recovered all of them.
Click to expand...

So even though the FFLs had NO responsibility to retrieve the firearm (since they had been given a “proceed” by NICS), in 43 of the 59 cases they took it upon themselves to recover the firearm from the PP. Just proves again that by far the majority of the FFLs out there are the last ones you need to worry about being “Merchants of Death”.
 
cathouse01 said:
Interesting little factoid in reading the above mentioned audit. The auditors looked at a sample of transactions that resulted in a firearm being transferred when the NICS check should have resulted in a denial:



So even though the FFLs had NO responsibility to retrieve the firearm (since they had been given a “proceed” by NICS), in 43 of the 59 cases they took it upon themselves to recover the firearm from the PP. Just proves again that by far the majority of the FFLs out there are the last ones you need to worry about being “Merchants of Death”.
Click to expand...
Or just maybe the PPs went off to the slammer and the dealers ended up with free guns. Jack.
 
Dadstoys said:
Their business, their rules.
I didn't say I like it , but seeing as it's not my ass in the breeze , oh well.
I get where they are coming from. do the proceed after three days because technically it's "legal " and something happens and see how it goes for you.
You'll spent the next two year watching your bank account drop faster than the gas gauge on a top fuel dragster just to prove what you did was legit while every anti DA in the country is going to be lining up to get a piece of your ass because you just had to be the cause of the latest mass shooting even though you broke no law.
Or they could just not do your shitty little 30 dollar transfer and keep a roof over their heads.
It sucks , but there you have it , Reality.

There's jobs my company won't take on based Risk /Reward past experiance.
They never end well and the customer ends up burning your ass online because you couldn't meet their unreasonable expectations.
We don't do em.
If that's a problem , keep scrolling through the yellow pages
Click to expand...

Bullshit, this comes down to a very simple concept. They can have whatever policy they want, and I have no issue with it. But there should be a big ass sign on the front door that says as much, and every time someone calls about a transfer they should tell them the policy since it is so out of line with normal procedure. That way nobody wastes their time going there, or their money and time when they do everything, get a delay, and the dealer decides then is the time to tell them "By the way, that gun is now in jail in my vault until we get a proceed.".

They can make whatever dumbass rule they please, but it should be real obvious so that I and I think most others, can avoid those shitty dealers and their crappy extrajudicial policies.
 
firestorm said:
Bullshit, this comes down to a very simple concept. They can have whatever policy they want, and I have no issue with it. But there should be a big ass sign on the front door that says as much, and every time someone calls about a transfer they should tell them the policy since it is so out of line with normal procedure. That way nobody wastes their time going there, or their money and time when they do everything, get a delay, and the dealer decides then is the time to tell them "By the way, that gun is now in jail in my vault until we get a proceed.".

They can make whatever dumbass rule they please, but it should be real obvious so that I and I think most others, can avoid those shitty dealers and their crappy extrajudicial policies.
Click to expand...

Conversely, it behooves delay prone people to call and ask before shopping. Then again i can see why most don't, out of dozens of dealers in New England I doubt there are more than a half dozen shops that camp on delays. Especially if we're not talking big big box stores like BPS or Cabelas.
 
It isn't merely sloth on the part of the BATFE bureaucrat. It's an exercise of power over the dealer. Gives him a tiny little woodie to say, "You go get that gun back or you'll have audit problems for the rest of your life."

(Note: I wrote BATFE because it drives them nuts not to be a TLA like the big guys.)
 
wcorey said:
So I’m buying a shotgun from an acquaintance ... It’s generally been a crapshoot for me and of course I got delayed, oh well, happens more so than not so half expected it anyway.
Click to expand...
How many parties to this transaction did you tell you usually get delayed?

wcorey said:
Literally as I turned around to head toward the door to leave, the counter employee said something like ‘Oh yeah, you have to sign this too’, sliding a half sheet of paper across the counter.
It’s a form stating that I agree to their policy of holding the gun until they get a proceed, no three day grace.
Click to expand...
And when you asked them what would happen if you didn't sign,
they said ...?

whacko said:
How does a gun shop owner go about retrieving a gun from someone?
Click to expand...
Same as the pro's, I figure.

  1. Shoot dog.
  2. ???
  3. Profit.

ScottS said:
Makes you wonder why the ATF didn't just cut out the middle man and go directly to the local PD.
Click to expand...
Because some police departments tell the Feds "Not My Yob"?
 
firestorm said:
Bullshit, this comes down to a very simple concept. They can have whatever policy they want, and I have no issue with it. But there should be a big ass sign on the front door that says as much, and every time someone calls about a transfer they should tell them the policy since it is so out of line with normal procedure. That way nobody wastes their time going there, or their money and time when they do everything, get a delay, and the dealer decides then is the time to tell them "By the way, that gun is now in jail in my vault until we get a proceed.".

They can make whatever dumbass rule they please, but it should be real obvious so that I and I think most others, can avoid those shitty dealers and their crappy extrajudicial policies.
Click to expand...
That part you are right on.
They should put their policy up front.

I think the biggest complainers should beg borrow and second mortgage their home , start up a business that sucks up your life 24/7 , 365 for years and then let a line up of shitbirds with zero investment in said business tell you how you should be running it.
Then video the reaction to said shitbirds.
Should be hilarious.
 
I have been in business almost 8 years. Out of all the delays I have received on a 4473 I would say less then 4 I heard back from the feds. Less then 4! They almost never get back to the FFL. My policy is transfer it after the 3 day wait. It's not my job to worry about it after that.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

ATF Rule Requires Smugglers to Get NICS Checks on Gun Sales
Replies
14
Views
340
powerman
powerman
Check out this new security system that will shoot intruders with paintballs
Replies
1
Views
91
walter62
walter62
Kennedy is a no vote.
2 3 4
Replies
98
Views
2K
HARRYM
H
Heart-stopping bodycam shows Chicago man, 26, 'open fire on cops' days after firearms court appearance - prompting officers to shoot back 90 times
Replies
29
Views
557
Reptile
Reptile
Memphis Officer Joseph McKinney was killed this morning in a shootout with a man who had been released without bail ... after being caught with a MG
Replies
19
Views
487
MaverickNH
MaverickNH
Back
Top Bottom