FFL's that won't release a transfer after three days if no proceed on a nics check

[wcorey]

How many parties to this transaction did you tell you usually get delayed?

Well, since I don't 'usually' get delayed, I probably didn't say that to anyone.
Over the past couple years I've gotten a proceed in minutes, an hour, been delayed but gotten a proceed within a day or so and also used the three day pass. So all over the map and seems pretty random...
Delays in general seem par for the course more than 'usual' these days so I guess I assume my chances are somewhat skewed in that direction so maybe projected a bit of pessimism?

Curious what point you're getting at here...?

And when you asked them what would happen if you didn't sign, they said ...?

As more or less said in my first post, I didn't ask (or refuse) and in retrospect wished I did. My suspicion is that they would have stuck with their policy either way.

I don't really hold it against them for having said policy, I just wish I'd been told up front and would have gone elsewhere.
I actually like the shop, they have the best selection/stock in the area and contrary to what I've heard, me being from MA has never been any sort of issue there. They seem happy to let me fondle the handguns even knowing I'm over the border and they currently aren't doing sales/transfers to Ma. originally 'cause covid, now who knows...

 

[AHM]

Well, since I don't 'usually' get delayed, I probably didn't say that to anyone.

You said to everyone on NES in the base note of this thread:

... I got delayed, oh well, happens more so than not ...

---

Curious what point you're getting at here...?

Words have meaning.

If it's not true that you get delayed on over 50% of your 4473s,
then don't write that.

As more or less said in my first post, I didn't ask (or refuse) and in retrospect wished I did. My suspicion is that they would have stuck with their policy either way.

Yeah, I doubt they'd have knuckled under.

The document is just some nebulous boilerplate
that if they're lucky they paid a lawyer to compose.

I have to wonder if they'd have tried to punt the transaction entirely.

I don't really hold it against them for having said policy, I just wish I'd been told up front and would have gone elsewhere.

I've yet to do a transfer, so I bet I'd never think to ask.

(Neither have I ever been delayed.
Then again, some terrorist with the same name as me
could make the headlines tomorrow,
and then I'd be scrambling for a UPIN).

I've never noticed a policy like that anywhere.
It'd make an impression if I saw one,
but first I'd have to see it.

I'd be beating myself up if I made some seller wait around a store
(or run the risk of having the transaction unwind weeks later).

I actually like the shop, they have the best selection/stock in the area and contrary to what I've heard, me being from MA has never been any sort of issue there. They seem happy to let me fondle the handguns even knowing I'm over the border and they currently aren't doing sales/transfers to Ma. originally 'cause covid, now who knows...

Pro-tip:
If you shop for clothing in Hooksett,
bring photo ID.

 

[wcorey]

You said to everyone on NES in the base note of this thread:

---

Words have meaning.

If it's not true that you get delayed on over 50% of your 4473s,
then don't write that.

Well if you wanna split hairs... to me "more so than not" can easily mean (and was intended to mean) a somewhat closer ratio than "usually", that to me would indicate a much more disparate ratio. I haven't kept records of my 4473 delay/proceed percentage over the years so I guess my intentionally ambiguous terminology was meant to reflect that.
So from my description I have to have been 51/49 or better or I'm FOS? That's kinda harsh, though does seem par for the course around here.

Yes, words have meaning.
Still wondering what you're inferring by the "How many parties to this transaction did you tell you usually get delayed?" comment and how it has anything to do with the situation. Am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time, lol...

 

[AHM]

Still wondering what you're inferring by the "How many parties to this transaction did you tell you usually get delayed?" comment and how it has anything to do with the situation. Am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time, lol...

Do you owe a seller any duty to inform them that
you've had transactions get delayed?


Consider the case of buying from one of the numerous NESers
who've sold a gun because they intend to immediately spend the revenue.

Either because they're hopping from gun to gun without any cash reserves,
or because their personal finances are dire and they need the money to live.

If those sellers knew you've gotten delays,
would they be justified in noping away to look for another buyer?

If those sellers didn't know and the deal was delayed,
does the seller owe you the duty to escrow the funds until the shop is willing to transfer?

If you expect the seller to escrow the funds,
do they owe you the duty to disclose that
they intend to spend the money immediately
before you agree to the purchase?


I've only bought guns from an FFL.
I've never sold guns.
I swan about thinking I know more about gun laws than I actually do.
Some of the above questions arise from introductory business law -
not gun laws.

ETA: Thanks in advance for any answers you might offer.
To other people they're possibly thought-provoking.
To you, they're edging over into the personal.

 

[drgrant]

One fun dist

You said to everyone on NES in the base note of this thread:

---

Words have meaning.

If it's not true that you get delayed on over 50% of your 4473s,
then don't write that.


Yeah, I doubt they'd have knuckled under.

The document is just some nebulous boilerplate
that if they're lucky they paid a lawyer to compose.

I have to wonder if they'd have tried to punt the transaction entirely.


I've yet to do a transfer, so I bet I'd never think to ask.

(Neither have I ever been delayed.
Then again, some terrorist with the same name as me
could make the headlines tomorrow,
and then I'd be scrambling for a UPIN).

I've never noticed a policy like that anywhere.
It'd make an impression if I saw one,
but first I'd have to see it.

I'd be beating myself up if I made some seller wait around a store
(or run the risk of having the transaction unwind weeks later).

Traditionally this is not the sellers problem. Gun had been inspected, price finalized and money has already been handed over by that point. Then gun is logged in for transfer. Seller gets receipt. It's only the Sellers problem if they chose the FFL /and/ the FFL is camping on the delay. That's the only circumstance where i would feel compelled as a seller to give a refund.

ETA: pretend you are selling on GB. You send gun to their dealer, you get paid. Buyer calls you 3 days later and says he wants his money back because he failed his BG check. Not your problem at that point unless you want to help the dude out, etc.

 

[wcorey]

Do you owe a seller any duty to inform them that
you've had transactions get delayed?

I find your response confusing as it would apply to the context of my situation, not sure if you have a good idea of what this type of transfer consists of.
I handed $'s to the seller for the gun, seller handed (transfers) gun to ffl, when 4473 clears I pay the transfer fee and ffl hands gun to me.
As far as I can tell, at least for practical purposes here, once the gun is transferred to the ffl, the seller is out of the loop...

 

[wcorey]

So I guess to 'back out' of this situation, seller would have had to get the gun transferred back to him, then we go to another ffl and start over (ultimately incurring three transfer fees?).
But what happens if he also gets an 'infinite' delay...?

Could the transfer simply have been 'cancelled' and gun returned to seller?

 

[Blackmore]

It isn't unheard of for an agent to make up a rule/reg/law on their own.

A little off topic but a perfect example. Two gunshops about 1/2 mile apart in Newport. At one, an ATF examiner told the owner it was required that the 4473 be completed in black ink. At the other, a different examiner told them the 4473 had to be completed in blue ink.

As for the topic at hand, I will not go in Shooters anymore since they started making you stand for a photo when you go in. I advise others to shop there only as a last resort. I understand Jim has a lot invested in that building he bought at foreclosure along with his other locations and he's now a big time operator so he can make rules he feels protect him. I'll shop elsewhere, thanks.

 

[AHM]

Traditionally this is not the sellers problem.

I've got about two questions around that
which I haven't seen addressed elsewhere on NES.
But they're beyond the scope of this thread...

I find your response confusing as it would apply to the context of my situation, not sure if you have a good idea of what this type of transfer consists of.

(This may turn out to be good).

I handed $'s to the seller for the gun, seller handed (transfers) gun to ffl, when 4473 clears I pay the transfer fee and ffl hands gun to me.

Didn't your FFL consider the fee to be due and payable by somebody
regardless of when or how NICS responded to the 4473?

As far as I can tell, at least for practical purposes here, once the gun is transferred to the ffl, the seller is out of the loop...

Who held legal title to the gun when the FFL was in physical possession
but NICS had not yet responded to the 4473 submission?

So I guess to 'back out' of this situation, seller would have had to get the gun transferred back to him, then we go to another ffl and start over (ultimately incurring three transfer fees?).
But what happens if he also gets an 'infinite' delay...?

Could the transfer simply have been 'cancelled' and gun returned to seller?

Seems like that's up to the FFL.

 

[wcorey]

Didn't your FFL consider the fee to be due and payable by somebody
regardless of when or how NICS responded to the 4473?


Who held legal title to the gun when the FFL was in physical possession
but NICS had not yet responded to the 4473 submission?

No clue about the fee, seems like I typically pay when I get the gun, not sure what happens on a denial. Maybe the seller pays when retrieving the gun.
I don't sell much of anything so somewhat out of my experience.

Not sure if 'legal title' is the proper terminology but I'd think as far as the feds are concerned the ffl owns it upon transfer to them. Dunno...

Now I see your whole line of conjecture/questioning has been coming from a legal/lawyer perspective, if you had made that more evident from the beginning it would have been much clearer and saved me a bunch of typing...

 

[AHM]

No clue about the fee, seems like I typically pay when I get the gun, not sure what happens on a denial. Maybe the seller pays when retrieving the gun.
I don't sell much of anything so somewhat out of my experience.

I'm trying to imagine a typical NES seller paying the transfer fee
on a sale which then gets a NICS Deny.

No matter how long and hard I think about it,
only one image comes to mind.

Spoiler

Not sure if 'legal title' is the proper terminology but I'd think as far as the feds are concerned the ffl owns it upon transfer to them. Dunno...

If you have a gunsmith do a trigger job,
do they own the gun while it's signed in to their bound book?

If you have a gunsmith do a trigger job,
do you pay sales tax on the value of the gun when they take possession,
and do you pay sales tax on the value of the gun when they relinquish possession?

Now I see your whole line of conjecture/questioning has been coming from a legal/lawyer perspective, if you had made that more evident from the beginning it would have been much clearer and saved me a bunch of typing...

Don't worry, it's an investment for the future.

 

[drgrant]

I'm trying to imagine a typical NES seller paying the transfer fee
on a sale which then gets a NICS Deny.

No matter how long and hard I think about it,
only one image comes to mind.

Spoiler

If you have a gunsmith do a trigger job,
do they own the gun while it's signed in to their bound book?

If you have a gunsmith do a trigger job,
do you pay sales tax on the value of the gun when they take possession,
and do you pay sales tax on the value of the gun when they relinquish possession?


Don't worry, it's an investment for the future.

Posession/control vs ownership (a fiduciary interest) are two different things that overlap. Logging a gun into a book is not per se necessarily a change of "ownership". Hell, you could hand a gun to a dealer and have them ship it to yourself under various circumstances. Or i could loan a gun to a friend but still use an FFL transfer to facilitate that loan. Those events don't necessarily mean ive forefeited my ownership rights to a gun, just that in some cases its the only lawful way to ship a firearm to a resident of another state.

 

[AHM]

Posession/control vs ownership ... are two different things that overlap. ...

Precisement.

 

[NotaCop]

How exactly does the shop "go get the gun back" from this felon? Do they have their own Gun Shop SWAT Team? When they call him (assuming they have a valid phone number, and he even answers), and they say "Gimme back" and he says "Suck me off," what happens then?

Yea, no offense and I'm sure you heard right but I'm not believing any gun shop employee or owner is going to risk life and limb by confiscating a firearm from a felon.

 

[ScottS]

Yea, no offense and I'm sure you heard right but I'm not believing any gun shop employee or owner is going to risk life and limb by confiscating a firearm from a felon.

Not my story. One of the posts above mine. Said the ATF called the gun shop to "go recover the gun."

 

[NotaCop]

Not my story. One of the posts above mine. Said the ATF called the gun shop to "go recover the gun."

Sorry, having trouble following along

 

[ScottS]

Sorry, having trouble following along

S'OK. I'm with you; I don't see the average gun store employee jumping at the chance to "recover" a gun from some felon.

At least, not more than once...

 

[strangenh]

If only there was some method in place for the last couple of decades to verify FFLs...

FFLeZCheck 3.1.2 - Federal Firearms License Search

(Type 03 CRFFLs are not included in EZ check, because it's their home address.)

...and one where an FFL did not have to provide a copy of their full license with signature!

 

[AHM]

Sorry, having trouble following along

(Don't sweat it; you'll fit right in ).

 

[CrackPot]

...and one where an FFL did not have to provide a copy of their full license with signature!

The ATF now recommends not providing a copy of your license but instead just the number. The shipper or receiver should then use ez check. Too many licenses are getting photoshopped and used for fraud.

 

[strangenh]

The ATF now recommends not providing a copy of your license but instead just the number. The shipper or receiver should then use ez check. Too many licenses are getting photoshopped and used for fraud.

Our very point. And it's been recommended for over a decade.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The ATF now recommends not providing a copy of your license but instead just the number. The shipper or receiver should then use ez check. Too many licenses are getting photoshopped and used for fraud.

The problem is that UPS and FedEx are very unlikely to accept that vs. the real FFL.

 

[NotaCop]

The problem is that UPS and FedEx are very unlikely to accept that vs. the real FFL.

UPS and FedEx aren't the shippers, they're the deliverers.

 

[CrackPot]

The problem is that UPS and FedEx are very unlikely to accept that vs. the real FFL.

If you are a real FFL that does regular business, you have no problems with UPS or FedEx. I have the cell phone numbers of my UPS guy, his back, my fedex express guy, his backup, my fedex ground guy. They all visit at least once each day. UPS a second time if he has scheduled pickups. Fedex Express twice with a second driver if they are doing late arrival deliveries.

When I have an outbound package, I just have it sitting there with the label on it and it goes away. USPS is easy because I just have to fill out a form 1508 when I drop off the package.

I know that UPS and FedEx have gotten stupid lately and want to see a copy of the FFL if you are otherwise unknown to them AND you declare the item a firearm as opposed to machine parts... But any frequent shippers this is a non issue.

 

[Len-2A Training]

UPS and FedEx aren't the shippers, they're the deliverers.

Private citizens (non-FFLs) can't ship any guns except if it is to/from an FFL (UPS/FedEx rules), so if they ask to see one and all you have is a computer printout of a EZ-check verification, I don't think you'll have much success.

 

[AHM]

Private citizens (non-FFLs) can't ship any guns except if it is to/from an FFL (UPS/FedEx rules), so if they ask to see one and all you have is a computer printout of a EZ-check verification, I don't think you'll have much success.

Need a combo Expert Gun Lawyer/Expert Business Lawyer
to write a lawyer letter to corporate counsel
accusing them of failing to perform the duty of a common carrier
to accept goods from anyone who wants to employ them.

If a legit cause of action,
demand a memo to show to the counter clerk;
telling them to cut the crap.

You can trust me on this.
I've consulted LAW HELP BANGLADESH.

 

[NotaCop]

Private citizens (non-FFLs) can't ship any guns except if it is to/from an FFL (UPS/FedEx rules), so if they ask to see one and all you have is a computer printout of a EZ-check verification, I don't think you'll have much success.

If you show up with a firearm at a UPS Store, they'll direct you to the high value clerk at the nearest UPS hub.
Had a guy walk into the store I pick up with an old revolver IN HIS HAND and wanted to ship it. Brookline.
High Value clerk verifies license and FFL for shipping, packages it up Next Day Air and adds insurance as a high value package, meaning it gets controlled.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Need a combo Expert Gun Lawyer/Expert Business Lawyer
to write a lawyer letter to corporate counsel
accusing them of failing to perform the duty of a common carrier
to accept goods from anyone who wants to employ them.

If a legit cause of action,
demand a memo to show to the counter clerk;
telling them to cut the crap.

You can trust me on this.
I've consulted LAW HELP BANGLADESH.

Given when and who gave me the info that UPS and FedEx both changed their policies within 10 days of each other, to require an FFL at one end . . . I'm 100% convinced that the BATFE demanded that they do that.

 

[AHM]

Given when and who gave me the info that UPS and FedEx both changed their policies within 10 days of each other, to require an FFL at one end . . . I'm 100% convinced that the BATFE demanded that they do that.

Question is what constitutes proof of FFLhood.

 

[Tracer51]

Different LGS have different policys.. Some LGS will not acceept gun transfers from some of the big online dealer. Some NH GS enforce Mass gun/ammo/mag laws.. gee how nice to be a Mass Law enforcer! Some charge $35 to $50 for basically opening a box and writing in a book. And some will hold on to a delay till the cows come home. Bottom line...ask the LGS what their transfer fees and delay policy are BEFORE you use them. Its their store and their policy, but take your business to the shops that treat you with respect and dont rip you off. There are plenty out there... ..just look around and you will find plenty!