"Fast And Furious/Gunwalker" mega-thread... was: ATF director expected to resign...

Mr Weebles said:
The Office of the Inspector General has released their report on F&F today. Eric Holder has been cleared.

So let me get this straight ... the OIG at the Department of Justice has cleared the head of the Department of Justice?

Color me shocked.
Click to expand...

Yeah... what a surprise.

Who investigates the Inspector General?
 
The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) in the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) is a statutorily created independent entity whose mission is to detect and deter waste, fraud, abuse, and misconduct in DOJ programs and personnel, and to promote economy and efficiency in those programs. The Inspector General, who is appointed by the President subject to Senate confirmation, reports to the Attorney General and Congress. The OIG investigates alleged violations of criminal and civil laws by DOJ employees and also audits and inspects DOJ programs.
Click to expand...

Link

Can you say 'conflict of interest'?
 
[rofl] what a high-jacked justice system. We are so screwed. Allow myself to investigate......myself

If the republicans were serious about anything they would bring back the special prosecutor law. That will never happen in reality because they are just as dirty and would never turn themselves in.
 
CBudz said:
Mr. Kelly gets it. from what i heard a lot of those other dingleberries don't give a shit about justice.. How do the **** do they end up in these positions?
Click to expand...

They get elected by morons.
 
Interviewers on the Spanish-language television network Univision grilled President Barack Obama about the Operation Fast and Furious scandal plaguing his administration in an interview Thursday.

“You told me during an interview that you and Mr. Holder did not authorize the Fast and Furious operation that allowed 2,000 weapons from the United States into Mexico and they were in the drug trafficking [cartels'] hands,” Univision co-host Jorge Ramos asked Obama, according to a translator, during the interview. “I think that up to 100 Mexicans might have died and also American agent Brian Terry. There’s a report that 14 agents were responsible for the operation but shouldn’t the attorney general, Eric Holder, he should have known about that and if he didn’t, should you fire him?”
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Full article here:
Obama slammed on Fast and Furious in Spanish-language TV interview: Shouldn’t you ‘fire’ Holder? [VIDEO]
 
So, I just finished reading/skimming (the thing is over 500 pages - I'm not reading every page) the official report and here are a couple of thoughts.

- The attorney general who was in charge when this program began probably didn't have any knowledge of it because he was so busy with other corruption and graft that I doubt he had time to be familiar with trivial things like what was going on in the ATF. AG Gonzalez's resignation was probably the bet thing to happen to the country in 2007.

- This program was straight up stupid from the get go. I understand the concept of letting certain criminal activities continue for the sake of an investigation; however, you have to have a plan for how you are going to stop those activities from effecting the general population. For example, I understand letting, say, the first batch of weapons to "walk" initially, but you can't let them leave the country or lose track of them. That seems like common sense to me. Especially since there was a good chance some of these weapons were being converted to full auto before leaving the country.

- That this program dragged on so long is crazy. The only logical end was that eventually a tragedy like the border agent getting killed would happen. Lord knows how many other people died with these weapons and it just never came to light.

- The lies and deceit that came from the ATF once this all came to light are disgusting, but not shocking. Once it came out how screwed up the ATF was on this project I am not surprised everyone who ever heard of it was scrambling for damage control. And now they are probably going to pay for it.

- As far as who should resign and who should be prosecuted criminally, well, that's a little trickier. This case eventually became a high priority/profile case in the ATF, so it's hard to imagine the head of the ATF didn't have knowledge of it. Did the AG have knowledge? It's conceivable, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was definite. Should holder be prosecuted or resign? It would probably be a smart move for Obama to fire him - at a minimum get him to resign without making it sound like he was fired.

All in all, a stupid program run by stupid people. Did it directly get anyone killed? That's more debatable than people make it sound. Would Agent Terry have been killed without the ATF's involvement in FF? My guess is yes. I doubt those four killers would have been walking around unarmed just because Fast and Furious never happened - they simply would have acquired their weapons elsewhere.

I would certainly hope that liked-minded 2A supporters can all see how dangerous it is to suggest that it was these specific weapons which caused this murder to happen. This murder happened because of our ridiculous and pointless war on drugs that gives cartels in Mexico all the incentive and power to conduct illegal border crossing operations. As long as that is going on, the cartels will acquire weapons from somewhere which means Terry would have been murdered either way, IMO.
 
That Guy said:
So, I just finished reading/skimming (the thing is over 500 pages - I'm not reading every page) the official report and here are a couple of thoughts.

- The attorney general who was in charge when this program began probably didn't have any knowledge of it because he was so busy with other corruption and graft that I doubt he had time to be familiar with trivial things like what was going on in the ATF. AG Gonzalez's resignation was probably the bet thing to happen to the country in 2007.

- This program was straight up stupid from the get go. I understand the concept of letting certain criminal activities continue for the sake of an investigation; however, you have to have a plan for how you are going to stop those activities from effecting the general population. For example, I understand letting, say, the first batch of weapons to "walk" initially, but you can't let them leave the country or lose track of them. That seems like common sense to me. Especially since there was a good chance some of these weapons were being converted to full auto before leaving the country.

- That this program dragged on so long is crazy. The only logical end was that eventually a tragedy like the border agent getting killed would happen. Lord knows how many other people died with these weapons and it just never came to light.

- The lies and deceit that came from the ATF once this all came to light are disgusting, but not shocking. Once it came out how screwed up the ATF was on this project I am not surprised everyone who ever heard of it was scrambling for damage control. And now they are probably going to pay for it.

- As far as who should resign and who should be prosecuted criminally, well, that's a little trickier. This case eventually became a high priority/profile case in the ATF, so it's hard to imagine the head of the ATF didn't have knowledge of it. Did the AG have knowledge? It's conceivable, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was definite. Should holder be prosecuted or resign? It would probably be a smart move for Obama to fire him - at a minimum get him to resign without making it sound like he was fired.

All in all, a stupid program run by stupid people. Did it directly get anyone killed? That's more debatable than people make it sound. Would Agent Terry have been killed without the ATF's involvement in FF? My guess is yes. I doubt those four killers would have been walking around unarmed just because Fast and Furious never happened - they simply would have acquired their weapons elsewhere.

I would certainly hope that liked-minded 2A supporters can all see how dangerous it is to suggest that it was these specific weapons which caused this murder to happen. This murder happened because of our ridiculous and pointless war on drugs that gives cartels in Mexico all the incentive and power to conduct illegal border crossing operations. As long as that is going on, the cartels will acquire weapons from somewhere which means Terry would have been murdered either way, IMO.
Click to expand...

Everything I have read or researched on this botched program lead me to believe conclusively that this was anything but an innocent program truly intended to track guns in the hands of Mexican criminals which went awry. They already knew where the majority of guns were coming from and going to, they certainly did not need a new program involving straw buyers in the US to figure this or add more guns to the mix. Not only did the ATF know, but the FBI must have also known (link) that the ATF was forcing gun stores to sell to known felons (2 known felons purchased 360 firearms in the Phoenix area). I don't believe the BS that this was just a series of flawed miscommunications. They were looking for a damaging statistic, but it had to come from 'straw buyers' to achieve the intended result. People within these agencies may, for the most part, be compartmentalized in their objectives and tasks, but those who direct and control them from above are not. What keeps the people in this country from taking it back is the fact we are far too naive and lack a deep enough understanding of how power operates in society and how well it is constructed. Most people act only as unwitting vehicles for the larger movements of social change. They are told a half-truth which ultimately becomes a lie, but by then it is too late.
 
Zarathustra11 said:
Everything I have read or researched on this botched program lead me to believe conclusively that this was anything but an innocent program truly intended to track guns in the hands of Mexican criminals which went awry. They already knew where the majority of guns were coming from and going to, they certainly did not need a new program involving straw buyers in the US to figure this or add more guns to the mix. Not only did the ATF know, but the FBI must have also known (link) that the ATF was forcing gun stores to sell to known felons (2 known felons purchased 360 firearms in the Phoenix area). I don't believe the BS that this was just a series of flawed miscommunications. They were looking for a damaging statistic, but it had to come from 'straw buyers' to achieve the intended result. People within these agencies may, for the most part, be compartmentalized in their objectives and tasks, but those who direct and control them from above are not. What keeps the people in this country from taking it back is the fact we are far too naive and lack a deep enough understanding of how power operates in society and how well it is constructed. Most people act only as unwitting vehicles for the larger movements of social change. They are told a half-truth which ultimately becomes a lie, but by then it is too late.
Click to expand...

I have heard that theory but it remains just that - a theory. The theory makes some sense, but it also has holes. To begin with, the program started and ran for half its life under a gun friendly Republican administration.

I ask my next question in all seriousness: Do you have anything that resembles proof? Obviously no one on this forum would have definitive proof one way or another, but what I am asking is, are there leaked emails somewhere spelling this out? Is there someone who was directly involved that has come out and stated this was the design? Because I haven't seen any of that - doesn't mean they don't exist because this thing isn't getting much press, that much I agree with.
 
"This program" didn't start under Gonzales and Bush. There were two distinct gun walking programs; Holder and Obama started their own. It lacked any of the controls of the Bush program, and was on a much larger scale.

I don't defend the Bush program, but it ended in 2008. Fast and Furious was strictly an Obama administration program, and started in 2009.
 
From what I've read and I could have been mislead, the operation that was started (and ended due to it's obvious failures) was NOT the same and was set up in a completely different manner. The guns were (chipped?) so that they could be tracked to show the path to the cartels. The operation was being done in cooperation with the Mexican .gov and was ended as soon as they were having trouble tracking the guns (all or most of which (I think) were recovered).

So to say that F&F was started under the previous admin isn't exactly true (again from what I've read).
 
That Guy said:
...
- The attorney general who was in charge when this program began probably didn't have any knowledge of it because he was so busy with other corruption and graft ...
Click to expand...
You are not getting anywhere with this one.



That Guy said:
...
- This program was straight up stupid from the get go. I understand the concept of letting certain criminal activities continue for the sake of an investigation; however, you have to have a plan for how you are going to stop those activities from effecting the general population. For example, I understand letting, say, the first batch of weapons to "walk" initially, but you can't let them leave the country or lose track of them. That seems like common sense to me. Especially since there was a good chance some of these weapons were being converted to full auto before leaving the country. ...
Click to expand...

It is one thing to allow some drugs or stolen merchandise back on the street, it is another to allow guns back on the border.


That Guy said:
...
- The lies and deceit that came from the ATF once this all came to light are disgusting, but not shocking. Once it came out how screwed up the ATF was on this project I am not surprised everyone who ever heard of it was scrambling for damage control. And now they are probably going to pay for it.

- As far as who should resign and who should be prosecuted criminally, well, that's a little trickier. This case eventually became a high priority/profile case in the ATF, so it's hard to imagine the head of the ATF didn't have knowledge of it. Did the AG have knowledge? It's conceivable, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was definite. Should holder be prosecuted or resign? It would probably be a smart move for Obama to fire him - at a minimum get him to resign without making it sound like he was fired. ...
Click to expand...

Of course they lie and deceive and cover up. My guess is Holder will get "reassigned" somewhere, or do like the cops do, and just retire early with a disability after a visit to the "special doctor" they seem to have at the ready for this purpose. Where's Hank Phillippi Ryan on this whole scam, anyhow?
 
That Guy said:
...I ask my next question in all seriousness: Do you have anything that resembles proof? Obviously no one on this forum would have definitive proof one way or another, but what I am asking is, are there leaked emails somewhere spelling this out? Is there someone who was directly involved that has come out and stated this was the design? Because I haven't seen any of that - doesn't mean they don't exist because this thing isn't getting much press, that much I agree with.
Click to expand...

How about this article/email where ATF discussed using Fast and Furious to propose new gun legislation?

Taken from article:

"ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks." (bold mine)

Does it get much clearer? There are other emails in that article, be sure to read them all.
 
KBCraig said:
"This program" didn't start under Gonzales and Bush. There were two distinct gun walking programs; Holder and Obama started their own. It lacked any of the controls of the Bush program, and was on a much larger scale.

I don't defend the Bush program, but it ended in 2008. Fast and Furious was strictly an Obama administration program, and started in 2009.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Mexico also knew about the program under Bush. The programs although dealing with the same issue was vastly different than O's program
 
Coyote, are you suggesting AG Gonzalez didn't resign in disgrace amid accusations of stonewalling a Congressional hearing?

Everything else you seem to be agreeing with me, so, great.
 
Zarathustra11 said:
How about this article/email where ATF discussed using Fast and Furious to propose new gun legislation?

Taken from article:

"ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks." (bold mine)

Does it get much clearer? There are other emails in that article, be sure to read them all.
Click to expand...

That's the kind of "proof" I was asking for, so thank you. It still doesn't exactly explain whether or not this was the original intent of the program or even if it was an "intent" of the program at all or if this was just some idiot who thought he could capitalize on an already dismal situation. I still don't understand why a gun friendly Republican administration ran this for two years if gun control laws were the ultimate goal. But neither do I understand why they would be so blase about letting thousands of weapons cross the border.

That said, it does appear that the ATF (in 2010 when those emails were written anyway) is staffed by out of touch idiots who at a minimum were attempting to capitalize on a terrible situation. And at worst it is certainly possible that they let this program continue for that sole purpose, although nothing in that article actually implies that.

- - - Updated - - -

Coyote33 said:
No, I wasn't suggesting that. I was talking about Holder.
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This program started in 2006 when the AG was Gonzales.
 
That Guy said:
That's the kind of "proof" I was asking for, so thank you. It still doesn't exactly explain whether or not this was the original intent of the program or even if it was an "intent" of the program at all or if this was just some idiot who thought he could capitalize on an already dismal situation. I still don't understand why a gun friendly Republican administration ran this for two years if gun control laws were the ultimate goal. But neither do I understand why they would be so blase about letting thousands of weapons cross the border.

That said, it does appear that the ATF (in 2010 when those emails were written anyway) is staffed by out of touch idiots who at a minimum were attempting to capitalize on a terrible situation. And at worst it is certainly possible that they let this program continue for that sole purpose, although nothing in that article actually implies that.

- - - Updated - - -


This program started in 2006 when the AG was Gonzales.
Click to expand...

Well what was the original stated objective of the program? Was it really to track the flow of weapons from the US into Mexico? If so, why not start where they knew for a fact the guns were coming from and/or implement a much more efficient tracking system for them once they did enter Mexico? They knew the majority of guns were not coming from gun shows or US gun stores- they were coming from FMS and private arm manufacturers who had sold them to foreign governments. You also cannot tell me that all of these agents failed to figure out how to track these guns once they crossed the border for a program so intent on supposedly tracking guns. Yes, playing the cartels off one another (as the arrested cartel kingpin noted) and, possibly, even off the government may have been a single objective. So, too, were the 'anecdotal' evidence they were looking for to implement new gun legislation. But you're right in the sense that I do not believe for one moment either tells us the complete story.

As with anything, we need to take a look at who truly benefits. This is not, despite the overwhelmingly passionate arguments otherwise, a partisan issue- this is a collective issue which is much broader in scope. While most people are caught up in petty divisions of blaming Bush for starting Wide Receiver, and Obama under Holder for allowing Fast and Furious/Gunrunner, we lose sight of the fact that, perhaps, both sides foster an illusion of participation that, at most, can only give people the false perception that they are able to influence or effect change in an otherwise runaway and rogue government. Personally, I believe the confluence of recent events does provide us with a better understanding of the overall agenda (link, link, link), but we first need to escape the whole left/right paradigm and blame game. Politicians are merely pawns in a larger game, and in the end, they too succumb always to the petty divisiveness which created them.

The US is the last bastion of supposed freedom in a world falling apart. Only as long as we have a right to bear arms, do we also possess an inherent ability to repel and overthrow tyranny. Tyranny is rampant these days- we see the rampant abuse in power from the local/state/federal police, up through the legal system, to the very top of the chain with our Attorney General. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and our country is no different. A single statistic pointed to by our ATF, indicating the majority of guns filtering into Mexico's drug cartels originated through straw gun purchases here in the US by lawful gun owners would provide the government and politicians the necessary evidence and momentum needed to damage gun ownership to a point where this right would ultimately erode completely. Oh, mind you, it would be slow and somewhat drawn out, but even as we see here in MA- it gets to a point where it is made impossible to both own a gun legally and not be construed as a felon in the same instance. For example, we may still be able to own a gun, but try cleaning your legally owned gun in the backyard in a major city or suburb tell me how well that works out for you.

“There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”― Ayn Rand
 
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