Do you get DELAYED ?

[noxin]

If that is what he's doing. Is there a difference in result (More delays one way or the other) between using the online form for the NICS check or calling it in? Assuming in this case paperwork filled out correctly and such.

Someone told me the phone agents use the same system as the online portal. I doubt it truly makes a difference.

 

[FrugalFannie]

I've been meaning to start this thread for a little bit now, I just haven't had the time. I also wanted to make sure I, or anyone who adds to this thread, don't come off bashing on any of our LGS.
This is simply a piece of information I wish I knew or had found on this forum.

I wanna be clear that the people at Pullman Arms in Worcester are SOLID, they're very helpful and friendly, I consider one of the guys there a friend, they have a great selection and great prices.
But I have to say I wish I knew about the owners "policy" before I got something transferred through them. according to the owners policy, if during a transfer or purchase you get DELAYED, the owner will not allow the firearm to be released.

I'll skip my story and get to the point

Turns out, they hold the firearm(s) until your 4473 form changes from DELAYED to PROCEED. Which it may be NEVER.
The owner does not follow the "May Release rule". You know, if you are delayed you just wait 3 days and come get it.

I was hoping we could have a thread with places that also do this. So guys who regularly get delayed can avoid possibly having to wait 30 to 60 days (if not more) to get their firearm.


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It's not a rule, it's an option. The dealer MAY release the firearm after 3 days. Some choose not to for whatever reason. One shop I know had to go get a firearm a month after releasing it because it eventually came back denied. The person was a "violent offender" and to say they had to put people in harms way to retrieve a gun may not be saying enough. I do not know who they sent, whether they contracted someone to get it, worked with LEOs or sent an upper level employee. They changed their policy to not releasing until there is a "proceed."

While technically the FFL has the right to complete the transfer do you really believe the Feds won't go after a dealer if that transferred firearm ended up involved in a crime?

 

[JAD]

My understanding is that if denied, the BATFE ORDERS the store to retrieve the gun. It's not a matter of them merely telling the BATFE it was transferred under law and it's now BATFE's problem. So they make it the dealer's problem. Big box stores don't want to deal with trying to retrieve guns. So they make a policy not to give the gun up until a proceed is issued.

In some states it is also a liability mitigation technique. Before the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act was passed, several states passed laws that provided civil protection to gun dealers sellers who transferred guns after receiving a NICS proceed response.

Years earlier in Connecticut (where at the time a proceed was required for retail transfer of any firearm and any transfer of a pistol/revolver) a similar provision was part of the legislative deal to create support for state background check system and implementation of the state instance check system. (They also passed another provisions that imposed civil strict liability and criminal vicarious liability to any gun seller who violated any transfer procedure/law if the gun was subsequently used in a crime).

 

[JAD]

Someone told me the phone agents use the same system as the online portal. I doubt it truly makes a difference.

In the federal system, there are (or were) different levels of phone operators. Some of them do (or did) have the ability to clear certain potential flags. Contractors were supposed pass calls on to that level when those flags came up.

In POC states there may be differences. For example, in Connecticut, we have a state POC. The automated (online and phone) systems routinely issue temp denies (which are our version of a delay). The operators can review the information and clear it, typically within minutes (if they are in the office and the computer is working). Those same individuals get approved without delay by live operators.

 

[Tracer1951]

It's not a rule, it's an option. The dealer MAY release the firearm after 3 days. Some choose not to for whatever reason. One shop I know had to go get a firearm a month after releasing it because it eventually came back denied. The person was a "violent offender" and to say they had to put people in harms way to retrieve a gun may not be saying enough. I do not know who they sent, whether they contracted someone to get it, worked with LEOs or sent an upper level employee. They changed their policy to not releasing until there is a "proceed."

While technically the FFL has the right to complete the transfer do you really believe the Feds won't go after a dealer if that transferred firearm ended up involved in a crime?

I am not sure where you got this info about the gun shop having to retrieve the weapon, but that's BS. Here is exactly what the requirement/action is concerning a released delay,,, directly from the Feds...
[h=3]Say my background check is denied after that three-day period. Then what happens to the gun I just bought?[/h]If the FBI determines after the three-day period that the buyer was prohibited, the agency sends out a retrieval order to the ATF. The ATF is then responsible for getting the gun back. Retrieval orders are relatively rare: A NICS operations report from 2000 noted that of more than 45,000 default proceeds issued that year, approximately 5,000 resulted in a retrieval order.......

If you want the actual truth from the "horses" mouth...here it is. https://oig.justice.gov/reports/ATF/e0406/exec.htm


At only takes a little research to come out with a verifiable answer.

 

[LukeIronSight]

It's not a rule, it's an option. The dealer MAY release the firearm after 3 days.

???
I'm confused what part of "MAY release" made you interpret my statement as not an option.

The Brady Law does not prohibit the FFL from transferring the firearm after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL’s discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm.

While technically the FFL has the right to complete the transfer do you really believe the Feds won't go after a dealer if that transferred firearm ended up involved in a crime?

and No, the "Feds" do not hold the "dealer" liable, they are in legal footing if you are not DENIED within 3 business days after the purchasing date, I have been provided the same answer from 3 different FFLs.


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[Sig Sauer Shooter]

The Brady Law does not prohibit the FFL from transferring the firearm after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL’s discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm.
and No, the "Feds" do not hold the "dealer" liable, they are in legal footing if you are not DENIED within 3 business days after the purchasing date, I have been provided the same answer from 3 different FFLs.

It's called No Resolution and the FFL can transfer the firearm to the buyer...

 

[LukeIronSight]

It's called No Resolution and the FFL can transfer the firearm to the buyer...

Yeah, We've stablished that already


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[FrugalFannie]

I am not sure where you got this info about the gun shop having to retrieve the weapon, but that's BS. Here is exactly what the requirement/action is concerning a released delay,,, directly from the Feds...
[h=3]Say my background check is denied after that three-day period. Then what happens to the gun I just bought?[/h]If the FBI determines after the three-day period that the buyer was prohibited, the agency sends out a retrieval order to the ATF. The ATF is then responsible for getting the gun back. Retrieval orders are relatively rare: A NICS operations report from 2000 noted that of more than 45,000 default proceeds issued that year, approximately 5,000 resulted in a retrieval order.......

If you want the actual truth from the "horses" mouth...here it is. https://oig.justice.gov/reports/ATF/e0406/exec.htm


At only takes a little research to come out with a verifiable answer.

I got this info from one of the employees who was very involved with the situation. I have no reason to call BS on this person. Were they obligated to retrieve? Probably not. Not sure on the details on how the gun was retrieved but it WAS retrieved.

- - - Updated - - -

Although I've never been delayed, the current system (whereby NICS goes down on busy gun show weekends) would really give me pause wrt buying from a "distance dealer" at a gun show. There is a dealer from the Springfield area that does a landmine business at the shows, all good reports . . . but the prospect of 3+ hours of driving there days/weeks later to pick something up would certainly dampen my spirits about almost any "deal" I might see at a show. Not so big a problem if the dealer is within an hour in an area that I might normally travel anyway.

My experience being in the gun shop on gun show weekends is that gunshow checks got prioritized and the shops got the delays.

 

[FrugalFannie]

I have never been delayed or denied, but do you typically pay even if delayed and not able to take the gun that day? Seems like it would be a paid on delivery kind of thing to avoid situations where they have your money for a thing it turns out they can't sell you.

Its even a little worse with the transfer thing as you have already paid for it to a third party who has no further involvement.

Every store I have been in you pay before the call is made or the online check is done. Once you fill out that form with the serial number that gun goes on "hold" for you, regardless of how long the proceed takes. The background check cannot proceed until the entire form is complete and that includes the serial number. If the proceed comes later or you get it "3 days later" you then have to sign again for the gun on the same form. It would be illegal for a FFL to submit the check without that gun with serial number on the form. Thus the gun is no longer able to be sold. Which means most (maybe all) shops are going to make you pay for it once that form is filled out. Some shops may allow you to pay on pickup. No idea really. Not good business in my mind to let you go without paying for it as they really can't sell it if you never show back up. Most people will show back up to get their money back though and I've never seen an FFL charge you to refund your money if you get denied or a failure to proceed.

 

[Goliathan]

Every store I have been in you pay before the call is made or the online check is done. Once you fill out that form with the serial number that gun goes on "hold" for you, regardless of how long the proceed takes. The background check cannot proceed until the entire form is complete and that includes the serial number. If the proceed comes later or you get it "3 days later" you then have to sign again for the gun on the same form. It would be illegal for a FFL to submit the check without that gun with serial number on the form. Thus the gun is no longer able to be sold. Which means most (maybe all) shops are going to make you pay for it once that form is filled out. Some shops may allow you to pay on pickup. No idea really. Not good business in my mind to let you go without paying for it as they really can't sell it if you never show back up. Most people will show back up to get their money back though and I've never seen an FFL charge you to refund your money if you get denied or a failure to proceed.

Here in the PRM, I get delayed every single time and have only ever paid for the gun on pickup day. Granted, my experience is limited a few transactions in three different physical gun stores in MA, but none of them have ever asked me to pay up front. My most recent BPS debacle where I told them I was no longer interested, they just said okay, and put the gun back on the shelf. Never gave them a penny.

I'd think the system would have to account for sales that don't go through for whatever reason, wouldn't it? I'm not conversant with all the applicable laws but it's hard to imagine that simply running a NICS check to attempt a transfer would render that serial number dead for all time. Things happen.

 

[firestorm]

Here in the PRM, I get delayed every single time and have only ever paid for the gun on pickup day. Granted, my experience is limited a few transactions in three different physical gun stores in MA, but none of them have ever asked me to pay up front. My most recent BPS debacle where I told them I was no longer interested, they just said okay, and put the gun back on the shelf. Never gave them a penny.

I'd think the system would have to account for sales that don't go through for whatever reason, wouldn't it? I'm not conversant with all the applicable laws but it's hard to imagine that simply running a NICS check to attempt a transfer would render that serial number dead for all time. Things happen.

Yeah, there is no way its any sort of issue. I think its a communication drop here, pennypincher might be getting the idea they can never check again on the same gun when they just need paperwork filled out (4473) before they can do the check.

Same as the issue with the store having to retrieve the gun, the gun store is not responsible for law enforcement functions. They are not cops, and have no ability past calling and asking nicely to get a gun returned. If that fails, its the feds problem, as they have the monopoly on armed force in this country. I don't doubt that the ATF would put pressure on the local store to get it back themselves, but they followed the law and can't be punished for it.

 

[Tarsook]

I've been meaning to start this thread for a little bit now, I just haven't had the time. I also wanted to make sure I, or anyone who adds to this thread, don't come off bashing on any of our LGS.
This is simply a piece of information I wish I knew or had found on this forum.

I wanna be clear that the people at Pullman Arms in Worcester are SOLID, they're very helpful and friendly, I consider one of the guys there a friend, they have a great selection and great prices.
But I have to say I wish I knew about the owners "policy" before I got something transferred through them. according to the owners policy, if during a transfer or purchase you get DELAYED, the owner will not allow the firearm to be released.

I'll skip my story and get to the point

Turns out, they hold the firearm(s) until your 4473 form changes from DELAYED to PROCEED. Which it may be NEVER.
The owner does not follow the "May Release rule". You know, if you are delayed you just wait 3 days and come get it.

I was hoping we could have a thread with places that also do this. So guys who regularly get delayed can avoid possibly having to wait 30 to 60 days (if not more) to get their firearm.


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Have you spoken to Alicia?

I had several pieces transferred through them over the summer. They came in, however the counterman refused to release them to me as the sending ffl did not include a copy of his license (he always refuses to, long uneventful backstory but absolutely will not do it). I told him that wasnt the law, he said it was. I showed him it wasnt the law, he changed it to it was store policy. I didnt have time to argue with him, so I told him to box them up and charge me whatever the **** it was so send them back to the sender so I could have them sent to another FFL. Shot off an email to Alicia letting her know how disappointed I was that she had countermen making up laws that didnt exist when she already operates in a state with enough to make it hard as is.

She called me personally the next day and took care of everything. YMMV, but she would be worth the conversation atleast to get her perspective on this.

 

[firestorm]

Have you spoken to Alicia?

I had several pieces transferred through them over the summer. They came in, however the counterman refused to release them to me as the sending ffl did not include a copy of his license (he always refuses to, long uneventful backstory but absolutely will not do it). I told him that wasnt the law, he said it was. I showed him it wasnt the law, he changed it to it was store policy. I didnt have time to argue with him, so I told him to box them up and charge me whatever the **** it was so send them back to the sender so I could have them sent to another FFL. Shot off an email to Alicia letting her know how disappointed I was that she had countermen making up laws that didnt exist when she already operates in a state with enough to make it hard as is.

She called me personally the next day and took care of everything. YMMV, but she would be worth the conversation atleast to get her perspective on this.

While that may be the case, how is anyone to know that? If some stooge tells me its store policy how do I know the owner isn't the one setting such policies? I generally don't bother to send letters about how I was treated I just move on. If this is not their policy, they should probably retrain their people. Perhaps you should e-mail them the link to this thread, and give them a chance to weigh in. They won't, but at least it will confirm its their policy and not some moron that works for them making them look bad.

 

[Tarsook]

how do I know the owner isn't the one setting such policies? I generally don't bother

You could have stopped right there.

You dont know the owner isnt the one setting the policies. Generally when something goes awry in business, I find it conducive to go as high up the ladder as you're allowed for resolution, when its actual resolution youre looking for. Generally owners care about their own businesses and getting things right. I dont know Alicia from a hole in the wall. Her shop wasnt by me and its the only time I had done business with her. But in the context of this thread, I think the information is applicable.

 

[firestorm]

You could have stopped right there.

You dont know the owner isnt the one setting the policies. Generally when something goes awry in business, I find it conducive to go as high up the ladder as you're allowed for resolution, when its actual resolution youre looking for. Generally owners care about their own businesses and getting things right. I dont know Alicia from a hole in the wall. Her shop wasnt by me and its the only time I had done business with her. But in the context of this thread, I think the information is applicable.

That's my point though, as someone who cares about their business they need to make sure those that work for them are only doing the things they would do. Only applying store policies that are actually policies and not giving bad info because they don't for whatever reason want to do something. If they don't know, then the answer should be "I don't know, let me ask the owner."

Its not my job to go fighting them on this stuff assuming they are wrong about policy/law whatever. I know what the law is on this, if the policy is different that's their choice, and I won't shop there. But because most people will simply not go back when they have a bad experience, the owner has the responsibility to keep the staff on a short leash and not let them spew nonsense if it is not their real policy. It just hurts their business.

 

[Tarsook]

That's my point though, as someone who cares about their business they need to make sure those that work for them are only doing the things they would do. Only applying store policies that are actually policies and not giving bad info because they don't for whatever reason want to do something. If they don't know, then the answer should be "I don't know, let me ask the owner."
.

The life of management in a nut shell.

 

[LukeIronSight]

Who's Alicia ?


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[Tarsook]

Who's Alicia ?


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One of the owners / managers

 

[rickflst]

Buying my first gun in MA. I have not done anything with a gun since the 70's. I am going through the delay now. 72 hours will be up tomorrow. The LGS indicated when the delay was issued that if I am not denied I would be able to pick it up after the 72 hours. Tomorrow I should hopefully be good.

 

[LukeIronSight]

One of the owners / managers

I'm not gonna bother. I'm sure they know this is something their customers are already upset about.

Buying my first gun in MA. I have not done anything with a gun since the 70's. I am going through the delay now. 72 hours will be up tomorrow. The LGS indicated when the delay was issued that if I am not denied I would be able to pick it up after the 72 hours. Tomorrow I should hopefully be good.

You'll be good man, if you were gonna be denied you would've been already and it's very rare to find a store that has this "no release policy."

Good luck ! And share with us what are you picking up tomorrow ?



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[rickflst]

Picking up a SW MP 40C Feels great in my hand

 

[Whutmeworry]

You'll be good man, if you were gonna be denied you would've been already and it's very rare to find a store that has this "no release policy."

Don't you actually mean the opposite? Seems to me the store actually has a "WILL release" policy.

 

[Mattyb]

Bringing up very old thread. Been MIA from here for quite a while. Sometimes you just need a break..

Just a heads up that my UPIN finally arrived at almost the 3 year mark(one more month)

 

[amm5061]

Bringing up very old thread. Been MIA from here for quite a while. Sometimes you just need a break..

Just a heads up that my UPIN finally arrived at almost the 3 year mark(one more month)

Hey, that's pretty good service from the .gov! I would've said 5 minimum, with a decade at the outside max.