Cops kill Down Syndrome man

[ColdDayInHell]

Unqualified kid?

 

[mattyw]

I don't think YOU get what happened here. An unqualified kid brought an unruly man into a private business. Private business wanted unruly man gone. Unruly man was unruly. He was restrained, not abusively according to witnesses. He died due to a combination of injury and existing conditions. Usual anti-police crowd cries about nazis and calls for cops to die.

Typical thread on NES.

unqualified based on who's criteria?

 

[mav]

Who is more unqualified? The care-giver who advised the off-duty cops to not escalate into physical violence or the off-duty cops who escalated the altercation into physical violence, resulting in the death of the victim?

From this point on your responses are...

 

[Martlet]

View attachment 77504

I guess if you aren't smart enough to articulate an argument, you can always make funny pictures.

Silly sheeple.

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I guess that would make you Curly...

Actually, it's Curley, but I'm surprised you even came that close.

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Unqualified kid?

Correct.

 

[Harpua]

I guess if you aren't smart enough to articulate an argument, you can always make funny pictures.

Silly sheeple.

I wouldn't waste my time arguing with someone who responds to multiple threads with "Tweet, Tweet" and supports JBTs. You seem so miserable when you're on here so maybe you should think about not signing on anymore.

 

[mattyw]

I guess if you aren't smart enough to articulate an argument, you can always make funny pictures.

Silly sheeple.

funny pictures or name calling really

 

[mav]

Actually, it's Curley, but I'm surprised you even came that close.
\

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

 

[Martlet]

unqualified based on who's criteria?

Her own. Seriously. Why don't any of you actually research anything? She got scared while outside the theatre when he went nuts and she called his mother to ask for help. She then left the upset and violent man alone and went to go get the car. He was gone when she returned.

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I wouldn't waste my time arguing with someone who responds to multiple threads with "Tweet, Tweet" and supports JBTs. You seem so miserable when you're on here so maybe you should think about not signing on anymore.

You wouldn't waste your time attempting to argue with someone when you can't form an argument. You can color it any way you want, but the fact remains you "waste your time" with senseless posts, but can't seem to use that time to understand the discussion.

Silly sheeple.

 

[mattyw]

she consulted someone based on a situation she may have never encountered personally and took the advice of someone more knowing than her

is that not what she should have done?

if the unqualified officers had the same concern for their job and this man's life, to ask for further assistance on how to handle the matter he may still be alive.

my reading comprehension is just fine thank you. It's my lack of a soft spot (or hard spot I guess?) for police officers that leads to my opinions being different than yours

 

[Martlet]

she consulted someone based on a situation she may have never encountered personally and took the advice of someone more knowing than her

is that not what she should have done?

if the unqualified officers had the same concern for their job and this man's life, to ask for further assistance on how to handle the matter he may still be alive.

my reading comprehension is just fine thank you. It's my lack of a soft spot (or hard spot I guess?) for police officers that leads to my opinions being different than yours

Exactly my point. At the end of the day, though, the officers were removing an unruly patron from an establishment at the request of the establishment. If there wasn't an unruly patron with an unqualified care give in the private business, there wouldn't have been an issue.

A private business shouldn't be held hostage by one person.

 

[highlander]

I've read all 9 pages of comments, opinions and the like and from my POV this is a situation with no happy ending no matter who or what happened. I've limited exposure to those with Down Syndrome but as someone said earlier you can't force them to do something that they have decided they don't want to do.
When I was younger we had a fellow who had DS and on many occasions I watched him lift the old style soda machine coolers that used water several inches off the floor, fortunately he was a good natured guy.
IMHO we may never know all the facts of what happened in this case and I'm not an apologist for the police by any means. It's been my experience and human nature that once a situation has gone to the point of physical force as in an individual getting violent be he/she is sane, sober, drunk or mentally defective force is met with force and no amount of reasoning is going to change that. What would the opinions here be if the young man had seriously injured or killed one of the LEOs ? I'll make a guess here and most would want him punished severely for his actions no matter what his mental state might have been.

 

[mattyw]

so it's ok to kill anyone who doesn't leave when asked?

we have one person who doesn't know any better, others who should, and the one who doesn't know any better winds up dead. I think there is reason to be upset at the officers here.

you keep bringing the private business up but I haven't seen anyone argue they were in the wrong whatsoever, so I am not sure what your point is other than you seem to be justifying the outcome

 

[Gman021]

I'll throw my opinion in here, mainly regarding what Martlet said. I have disagree on some points.

Lets remember, the victim was retarded. I understand shit can happen when the police talk to someone who becomes physical and refuses orders.

But, the victim was retarded. Not a 6'4 body builder who was in control.


Are we going to start choking out 5 year olds who get physical?

 

[Harpua]

Her own. Seriously. Why don't any of you actually research anything? She got scared while outside the theatre when he went nuts and she called his mother to ask for help. She then left the upset and violent man alone and went to go get the car. He was gone when she returned.

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You wouldn't waste your time attempting to argue with someone when you can't form an argument. You can color it any way you want, but the fact remains you "waste your time" with senseless posts, but can't seem to use that time to understand the discussion.

Silly sheeple.

I'm sorry you got so upset about a Jasper meme. Tweet Tweet.

 

[taz-2005]

I searched this case in the morning, can someone please find a news story or account where the eyewitness says the police were choking/kicking/beating/stomping etc? I could not find one.

 

[Martlet]

so it's ok to kill anyone who doesn't leave when asked?

we have one person who doesn't know any better, others who should, and the one who doesn't know any better winds up dead. I think there is reason to be upset at the officers here.

you keep bringing the private business up but I haven't seen anyone argue they were in the wrong whatsoever, so I am not sure what your point is other than you seem to be justifying the outcome

Being upset with the police, and saying they handled it poorly, is FAR different than cries of NAZI and calls for a slow death in front of their family. All parties could have handled things differently.

I'm not justifying the outcome. I'm saying the outcome wasn't the result of extreme brutality. It was a crappy situation, handled poorly by everyone involved, that resulted in an unfortunate death do in part to existing health conditions.

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I'll throw my opinion in here, mainly regarding what Martlet said. I have disagree on some points.

Lets remember, the victim was retarded. I understand shit can happen when the police talk to someone who becomes physical and refuses orders.

But, the victim was retarded. Not a 6'4 body builder who was in control.


Are we going to start choking out 5 year olds who get physical?

A five year old isn't a 300 pound 26 year old.

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I'm sorry you got so upset about a Jasper meme. Tweet Tweet.

You waste a lot of time for someone that hates wasting time. I guess that's what happens when you can't follow the conversation.

 

[mattyw]

I searched this case in the morning, can someone please find a news story or account where the eyewitness says the police were choking/kicking/beating/stomping etc? I could not find one.

witnesses never miss anything, that's true, forgot about the absolute reliability of eyewitnesses

like I said, his trachea must have collapsed on it's own, my apologies for making assumptions

it very well could have been the case, I didn't read in the autopsy report that he had Traceomalacia however

 

[mav]

Are we going to start choking out 5 year olds who get physical?

The day I see a police officer choking out a 5yo is the day I kiss my family goodbye and [edited for content].

At that point, there is no redeeming value left in our society. It might as well burn to the ground...

* Edit *

With my luck, a video of this exact scenario will be posted to this thread within 24 hours and I'll be eating my words...

 

[Martlet]

witnesses never miss anything, that's true, forgot about the absolute reliability of eyewitnesses

like I said, his trachea must have collapsed on it's own, my apologies for making assumptions

it very well could have been the case, I didn't read in the autopsy report that he had Traceomalacia however

The autopsy didn't say his trachea collapsed. They said it was damaged. Restraining a violent 300 pound man can damage a trachea with no malice involved.

 

[mattyw]

Being upset with the police, and saying they handled it poorly, is FAR different than cries of NAZI and calls for a slow death in front of their family. All parties could have handled things differently.

I'm not justifying the outcome. I'm saying the outcome wasn't the result of extreme brutality. It was a crappy situation, handled poorly by everyone involved, that resulted in an unfortunate death do in part to existing health conditions.

I agree with your first part, I never joined that movement on this one.

I am not prepared to rule out extreme brutality but that is merely based on an absence of knowledge/facts
I certainly hope it wasn't the case, maybe its my emotional side but I can't rule it out as a possibility without knowing more.

 

[falcon123]

You're right... king is alive to talk about it with his millions.

No he's not.

 

[taz-2005]

The death of Ethan Saylor - The Frederick News-Post : Crime And Justice

The death of Ethan Saylor

Society functions on some basic constructs: You select or eat food in public, you pay for it. You buy a ticket at the ballpark or the concert hall, you sit in the assigned seat. Robert Ethan Saylor, a 26-year-old New Market man with Down syndrome and an IQ of 40, seemed to understand this; when told by a theater employee he would need to pay another $12 to see a movie a second time, he said he had no money. The matter swiftly escalated with off-duty sheriff’s deputies working as security guards ordering him to leave the theater. In the vernacular of today, he freaked out and resisted their efforts to walk him out.

In short order Saylor suffocated — died over a $12 movie ticket — after he scuffled with the deputies until they subdued him. The Frederick County Sheriff’s Office has released a trove of information related to the Jan. 12 confrontation, and it underscores the troubling question that lingers: How could misdemeanor behavior end in death?

Ethan Saylor was accompanied to Regal Cinemas Westview Stadium 16 by an 18-year-old aide to see “Zero Dark Thirty.” The aide said that he became angry after they left the theater, and she was advised by phone to give him time to calm down. While she went to get a car, he returned to the theater and, disregarding a manager’s instructions to remain in the lobby, went back to Theater 9 and sat down. Guards were summoned to evict him. Saylor could not handle the personal interaction; he did not like to be touched, his caretakers say, and one can imagine the guards reacting to a 294-pound man cursing them and flailing. Witnesses say that the deputies were polite but firm in asking Saylor to leave.

Some questions go back to the construct: Couldn’t Saylor have been allowed to see the movie again without paying? Was theater management obliged to get him out of the building with haste to allow patrons of the next showing to get what they paid for? It is painful to contemplate that at the time of the lethal confrontation, his mother was only minutes away from intervention that would almost certainly have defused the situation.

From a criminal standpoint, the case has run its course. A county grand jury declined to indict the deputies in March. The Justice Department has launched an investigation into whether Saylor’s civil rights were violated. That’s hard to say — that’s why there’s an investigation — but perhaps the inquiry can shed more light on how Saylor died. Witness accounts seem to suggest his encounter with the off-duty deputies was too brief and insufficiently lethal to have led to asphyxiation. Sheriff Chuck Jenkins raises the possibility that Saylor had a “medical emergency” during the scuffle. The larger issue is whether the episode will influence law enforcement to be more responsive to the unique challenges posed by individuals with mental impairments. Also in need of improvement is transparency; it took three months for data about the evidence from the sheriff’s office report to be made public this month after the report was finished, and six months passed from the time this newspaper requested further information on the theater confrontation.

This is a textbook case of the public’s right to know. Families with special-needs children and law enforcers can all learn from it.

 

[mattyw]

The autopsy didn't say his trachea collapsed. They said it was damaged. Restraining a violent 300 pound man can damage a trachea with no malice involved.

well then what caused the asphyxiation? (that was the cause of death correct?)

it seems there are pieces missing in this explanation, and the ME did declare it a homicide did he not?

 

[Gman021]

A five year old isn't a 300 pound 26 year old.

I figured as much.


No where does it say the man with down syndrome initiated violent physical contact. AND, the car giver specifically warned the police but they went and did it anyway.



If the police's strategy is to physically attack everyone they are trying to apprehend, more "accidents" are going to happen. They're the police, not thugs from the streets of chicago.

 

[Martlet]

I agree with your first part, I never joined that movement on this one.

I am not prepared to rule out extreme brutality but that is merely based on an absence of knowledge/facts
I certainly hope it wasn't the case, maybe its my emotional side but I can't rule it out as a possibility without knowing more.

It doesn't need to be ruled out as a possibility, even though witnesses say it didn't happen. However, not ruling it out doesn't mean formulate a story to support that it didn't and condemn the police based on it. I understand you didn't do that. However, many did. That's where my issue lies. I have a healthy mistrust of authority. That's different than cries of NAZI and calls for a slow death when someone doesn't even know what happened, just because they love to hate cops.

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I figured as much.


No where does it say the man with down syndrome initiated violent physical contact. AND, the car giver specifically warned the police but they went and did it anyway.



If the police's strategy is to physically attack everyone they are trying to apprehend, more "accidents" are going to happen. They're the police, not thugs from the streets of chicago.

Yeah? His care giver says he was punching windows prior to the incident and went nuts when the cops touched him.

Why worry about the facts though, right?

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well then what caused the asphyxiation? (that was the cause of death correct?)

it seems there are pieces missing in this explanation, and the ME did declare it a homicide did he not?

Holy ****, do you read anything? Why is NES so intellectually lazy? Will you read the effing ME report?

 

[OPM]

Then what's the alternative?

How about paying for his ticket an leaving him the **** alone???

Or

How about telling his care giver to pay for his ticket or he’d be arrested???

Or

How about getting his mother/family there to deal with him???

Or

How about calling the on duty cops with more equipment and ambulance??? You call 911 because you get into a fender-bender and they show up with firefighters, ambulance and two cruisers. Dealing with mentally ill man-child probably justifies as much service as a fender-bender?

Or how about showing some humanity and compassion and thinking things through before acting.

This is NOT gray area!!! This is as black & white as it gets. Three dickless brainless *******s decided to flex their muscle to prove their self-worth. In the process the MURDERED a man. The only questions here are is it first degree or second degree or …, and who is the murderer and who is the accomplice.

If you and I were in their shoes we’d be getting butt****ed in jail right about now. And rightfully so. These guys have a job and their bullshit is tolerated specifically to defend weak and defenseless. What they did hear is beyond words. At very minimum they must be immediately fired. That is not even questionable. But a trial with unbiased jury, judge and prosecutor is also clearly in order

 

[Martlet]

How about paying for his ticket an leaving him the **** alone???

Or

How about telling his care giver to pay for his ticket or he’d be arrested???

Or

How about getting his mother/family there to deal with him???

Or

How about calling the on duty cops with more equipment and ambulance??? You call 911 because you get into a fender-bender and they show up with firefighters, ambulance and two cruisers. Dealing with mentally ill man-child probably justifies as much service as a fender-bender?

Or how about showing some humanity and compassion and thinking things through before acting.

This is NOT gray area!!! This is as black & white as it gets. Three dickless brainless *******s decided to flex their muscle to prove their self-worth. In the process the MURDERED a man. The only questions here are is it first degree or second degree or …, and who is the murderer and who is the accomplice.

If you and I were in their shoes we’d be getting butt****ed in jail right about now. And rightfully so. These guys have a job and their bullshit is tolerated specifically to defend weak and defenseless. What they did hear is beyond words. At very minimum they must be immediately fired. That is not even questionable. But a trial with unbiased jury, judge and prosecutor is also clearly in order

The business wanted him gone. They didn't want someone to buy him a ticket. Maybe parents shouldn't send an unruly son into public without someone who can handle him.

 

[Gman021]

Yeah? His care giver says he was punching windows prior to the incident and went nuts when the cops touched him.

Why worry about the facts though, right?

I didn't see that in any of the articles but I just looked it up. Nevertheless, when he was being pinned by two officers, a third officer put his knee on Ethan's back/neck.


I'm not arguing a physical confrontation could have easily been avoided, but I am saying using enough strength to asphyxiate someone with down syndrome who was already pinned to the ground does not appear right.

 

[Harpua]

Don't worry, Martlet is messaging me while using the word "retard" used profusely so he definitely can look at this case with an un-biased view. . You should join us here in 2013.

 

[Martlet]

I didn't see that in any of the articles but I just looked it up. Nevertheless, when he was being pinned by two officers, a third officer put his knee on Ethan's back/neck.


I'm not arguing a physical confrontation could have easily been avoided, but I am saying using enough strength to asphyxiate someone with down syndrome who was already pinned to the ground does not appear right.

Postural asphyxiation doesn't require strength or force, and is apparently more common in obese people and complicated by Downs Syndrome.

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Don't worry, Martlet is messaging me while using the word "retard" profusely so he definitely can look at this case with an un-bias view. . You should join us here in 2013.

Actually, I never messaged you. Why by truthful, right?

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