Cops kill Down Syndrome man

[xtry51]

What are you implying? Copying and pasting on tablet is not 100 that is why I include links so you can read it for yourself.

Beside that info was already talked about earlier in this post. I was using this more for the first part about the angry outburst and punching a window and the fact they were outside then he, Ethan, went back in.

Beside what is an 18 doing as caretaker? I can't imagine she has the skills or training to deal with someone like that.

This is common for Down syndrome patients. It is a correctable situation. If the cops didn't know WTF DS is, they shouldn't have removed the caretaker. They were clearly negligent.

 

[BattleSnail]

I hope all the pigs involved in this die a miserable slow death in front of their families

 

[taz-2005]

As for cover, like in the Zimmerman case, if you withhold certain things from the GJ, they can reach the conclusion you want and you still have political cover. I suspect that is the case here.

This is the exact opposite of the GZ case, Zimmerman went to trial this didn't. My point is a DA would err on the side of going to trial in a case like this so he could wash his hands of it with whatever the jury decided.

 

[BattleSnail]

Beside what is an 18 doing as caretaker? I can't imagine she has the skills or training to deal with someone like that.

Seems like the caretaker was doing just fine until the heroes in blue showed up and removed her and acted against her advice.

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Yeah, a boot on the neck tends to do that.

Downsie's can generally be coaxed along. No need to get physical.

Downsies? nice

 

[Len-2A Training]

This is the exact opposite of the GZ case, Zimmerman went to trial this didn't. My point is a DA would err on the side of going to trial in a case like this so he could wash his hands of it with whatever the jury decided.

Not at all, they got the GJ to prosecute due to withholding exculpatory evidence that would have helped GZ. They also later were accused of withholding such evidence from the defense counsel.

Any DA that presents a case to a GJ, regardless of GJ decision has succeeded in giving him/herself "political cover". It's a "see, they made the decision, not me" scenario and win-win for the DA.

 

[taz-2005]

Seems like the caretaker was doing just fine until the heroes in blue showed up and removed her and acted against her advice.

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Downsies? nice

"The caretaker then spoke by phone with another of Saylor’s caretakers. He advised her to leave Saylor in front of the theater while she got the car, giving him a few minutes alone to calm himself. But by the time she returned, Saylor had gone back into the theater and seated himself. As she walked in, a manager was telling Saylor he had to leave the auditorium."

Leaving him alone while she gets the car? that sounds pretty negligent. Plenty of blame to go around here.

 

[taz-2005]

Not at all, they got the GJ to prosecute due to withholding exculpatory evidence that would have helped GZ. They also later were accused of withholding such evidence from the defense counsel.

Any DA that presents a case to a GJ, regardless of GJ decision has succeeded in giving him/herself "political cover". It's a "see, they made the decision, not me" scenario and win-win for the DA.

What you are missing is all of the outside political pressure. In the GZ case from the Black community and White House and in Saylors case an outraged public and advocacy groups for the disabled.

If there was a case he would have wanted it to go to trial; A case like this will haunt his career.

 

[Len-2A Training]

What you are missing is all of the outside political pressure. In the GZ case from the Black community and White House and in Saylors case an outraged public and advocacy groups for the disabled.

Regardless in this case the DA has "cover" with the "no bill" as the sheep have no idea how the GJ system works.

 

[BattleSnail]

Where are you getting choke hold from? A source would be good because I can't find one.

"None of the deputies hit or kicked Mr. Saylor or used any force to the neck or head of Mr. Saylor. The only police equipment utilized by the Deputies was handcuffs."

Saylor report: Deputies said they did 'nothing wrong' - The Frederick News-Post : Crime And Justice

^his windpipe must have just crushed itself. You JBT apologists make me sick

 

[taz-2005]

^his windpipe must have just crushed itself. You JBT apologists make me sick

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^his windpipe must have just crushed itself. You JBT apologists make me sick

Give me a break. Blame the cops where it's needed and deserved; This is not the hill to die on trying to take. Find another case there are plenty out there, daily.

If they reopen and find new evidence then I'll reexamine my position.

 

[Bt74]

That's absolutely true. You just need some patience and to work with them a little. You absolutely cannot force them to do anything, it just puts them into a rage.

Wow, is THAT a generalization!

 

[BattleSnail]

"The caretaker then spoke by phone with another of Saylor’s caretakers. He advised her to leave Saylor in front of the theater while she got the car, giving him a few minutes alone to calm himself. But by the time she returned, Saylor had gone back into the theater and seated himself. As she walked in, a manager was telling Saylor he had to leave the auditorium."

Leaving him alone while she gets the car? that sounds pretty negligent. Plenty of blame to go around here.

oh well in that case yeah they totally should have murdered him

 

[WatchCityCPA]

What are you implying? Copying and pasting on tablet is not 100 that is why I include links so you can read it for yourself.
...

I am not implying anything - I thought I said what I meant pretty clearly. But since there seems to be some confusion here, allow me to clarify.

There is really not enough facts to form an opinion, sounds like a very sad case either way. A grand jury didn't indict and the old saying is you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

No facts to form an opinion? You clearly already have one... facts be damned.


Your post #2 above is an outright lie, implying that no grand jury indictment must mean that there is nothing to the case. As me and other pointed out, the grand jury usually gives the DA what the DA wants, and the grand jury outcome is an indication of what the DA wants, not of the actual facts of the case.


Plus, you state that there is no way of knowing what happened, right? But...

Len you are saying "stomping" when there is 0 evidence of that. There were 18 eyewitnesses.
...
There are plenty of better examples of over aggressive police, this isn't one if them. This is a tragic event. I'm sure the family will sue and the jury on that will figure that one out.

Now you KNOW this was not a case of over aggressive police... even though you did not have enough facts earlier.


Zero evidenve of stomping or choke holds? I'd say that a crushed larynx is evidence of severe violence applied to a guy who merely refused to leave his seat in a theater before this situation escalated out of control.

Where are you getting choke hold from? A source would be good because I can't find one.


"None of the deputies hit or kicked Mr. Saylor or used any force to the neck or head of Mr. Saylor. The only police equipment utilized by the Deputies was handcuffs."


Saylor report: Deputies said they did 'nothing wrong' - The Frederick News-Post : Crime And Justice

The quote you provide simply does not appear in the link below. Plus, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was edited out of the article after you quoted it, it sounds like it is a statement from the DA's office that you try to present as a proven fact.


From the article above:


“The witness statements make clear that Mr. Saylor’s aide asked both the theater employee and at least one of the sheriff’s deputies to give her enough time to resolve the problem on her own or with Mr. Saylor’s mother, who was only a few minutes away. Instead of allowing that to happen, they pressed on,” he said."


There was no need to escalate - what was the urgency in a guy not leaving a chair that required IMMEDIATE violence?


"The report includes a description of the incident completed by Rochford, but a portion in which supervisors review the actions and determine whether the use of force was reasonable is left blank."


Self-explaining.


"In the written statements and follow-up interviews, witnesses gave conflicting accounts of the confrontation. When asked, some of the witnesses said they believed the deputies acted professionally; others said they thought the force was excessive."


Whoops - proof of excessive force... even if it's only SOME witnesses. Please note that nobody is saying how many witnesses were on each side.


" Follow-up interviews with witnesses to ask whether they saw the officers grab Saylor in the neck area were conducted Jan. 28. The three witnesses said they did not see the deputies’ hands or arms in the neck or shoulder area."


Three witnesses? There were double digit witnesses... but only three were interviewed on this matter. Kind of suggests how many witnesses thought the deputies acted professionally... 3 out of 18?

I agree, I just don't think this is a typical "police brutality" case.


I wasn't there so I don't know how his larynx got crushed. I did find this though.


Following the Ethan Saylor case (updated July 18, 2013) | Down Syndrome Association of Greater St. Louis

So when facts do not support your opinion, it is unreasonable to form an opinion without complete information, but you have a clear opinion without complete facts


And you deny that violence occured, but suggest that violence was justified since the guy had aggressive outbursts in the past






To summarize, you sound like a lawyer or a PR person paid to defend a certain position: you use information selected with a clear bias, misrepresent quotes from the DA as facts, and threw in some outright lies to try to defend your position. Not saying you are a paid liar - just pointing out that your posts are indistinguishable from the posts a paid liar would make.


Hope that what I'm saying is clear enough this time, cause I don't know how to make it clearer.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Give me a break. Blame the cops where it's needed and deserved; This is not the hill to die on trying to take. Find another case there are plenty out there, daily.

If they reopen and find new evidence then I'll reexamine my position.

Let me put it this way . . .

Look at the picture of this man. He's "no neck", probably 2-3" of flab before you get to his windpipe. So how does that get crushed w/o an "external force"? Serious question here.

Wow, is THAT a generalization!

You have to live with someone with DS to understand this. They are obese (very heavy for their height), all flab, and when they "stand their ground" and refuse to move, it's like grabbing jello to try to force them to move where you want them to. Pushing them is like pushing a flabby mountain, very difficult. Much better to coax them to do what you want with bribery, quicker, easier and less likely to agitate them.

oh well in that case yeah they totally should have murdered him

She was with him by herself (and this is SOP), so if she couldn't get him to walk to the car with her, what was she supposed to do? Going for the car and then trying to coax him into it was the sensible thing to do (agreeing with BattleSnail here).

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

Wow, is THAT a generalization!

Yeah it is. I used to work with Down Syndrome kids all the time. And among all those kids I learned that you CANNOT force them. They react to force with force. It is instinctual. And they are monstrously strong. When I was a teenager, I was dealing with 9 year olds that could break my arm when put upon. When you need to move them, you need to be calm, smiling and treat them like little children. Patience and bribery work well. Or just let them continue to sit there until they get bored because they do not learn well. That is the whole crux of the condition. You cannot punish them into doing anything. You cannot "teach them a lesson" They learn few lessons.

If you physically force a large, male adult Down Syndrome person, he will severely hurt you. And hence these dickhead cops got into a situation they had no business in, the DS was kicking their asses and they responded with additional force, killing him.

They all need to go to 1. be fired and 2. go to jail.

What blows my mind is how many stupid cops there are. Idiots with a hero complex. Must be all the video games.

 

[Quiet]

You're right... king [strike=me]is[/strike] was alive to talk about it with his millions.

FIFY King has been dead over a year.

Let me put it this way . . .

Look at the picture of this man. He's "no neck", probably 2-3" of flab before you get to his windpipe. So how does that get crushed w/o an "external force"? Serious question here.

By slamming him forward into the back of the seat in front of him.
Doesn't disagree with what the AG said, either.

 

[taz-2005]

I am not implying anything - I thought I said what I meant pretty clearly. But since there seems to be some confusion here, allow me to clarify.





No facts to form an opinion? You clearly already have one... facts be damned.


Your post #2 above is an outright lie, implying that no grand jury indictment must mean that there is nothing to the case. As me and other pointed out, the grand jury usually gives the DA what the DA wants, and the grand jury outcome is an indication of what the DA wants, not of the actual facts of the case.


Plus, you state that there is no way of knowing what happened, right? But...





Now you KNOW this was not a case of over aggressive police... even though you did not have enough facts earlier.


Zero evidenve of stomping or choke holds? I'd say that a crushed larynx is evidence of severe violence applied to a guy who merely refused to leave his seat in a theater before this situation escalated out of control.





The quote you provide simply does not appear in the link below. Plus, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was edited out of the article after you quoted it, it sounds like it is a statement from the DA's office that you try to present as a proven fact.


From the article above:


“The witness statements make clear that Mr. Saylor’s aide asked both the theater employee and at least one of the sheriff’s deputies to give her enough time to resolve the problem on her own or with Mr. Saylor’s mother, who was only a few minutes away. Instead of allowing that to happen, they pressed on,” he said."


There was no need to escalate - what was the urgency in a guy not leaving a chair that required IMMEDIATE violence?


"The report includes a description of the incident completed by Rochford, but a portion in which supervisors review the actions and determine whether the use of force was reasonable is left blank."


Self-explaining.


"In the written statements and follow-up interviews, witnesses gave conflicting accounts of the confrontation. When asked, some of the witnesses said they believed the deputies acted professionally; others said they thought the force was excessive."


Whoops - proof of excessive force... even if it's only SOME witnesses. Please note that nobody is saying how many witnesses were on each side.


" Follow-up interviews with witnesses to ask whether they saw the officers grab Saylor in the neck area were conducted Jan. 28. The three witnesses said they did not see the deputies’ hands or arms in the neck or shoulder area."


Three witnesses? There were double digit witnesses... but only three were interviewed on this matter. Kind of suggests how many witnesses thought the deputies acted professionally... 3 out of 18?







So when facts do not support your opinion, it is unreasonable to form an opinion without complete information, but you have a clear opinion without complete facts


And you deny that violence occured, but suggest that violence was justified since the guy had aggressive outbursts in the past






To summarize, you sound like a lawyer or a PR person paid to defend a certain position: you use information selected with a clear bias, misrepresent quotes from the DA as facts, and threw in some outright lies to try to defend your position. Not saying you are a paid liar - just pointing out that your posts are indistinguishable from the posts a paid liar would make.


Hope that what I'm saying is clear enough this time, cause I don't know how to make it clearer.

From post 2 and beyond I was actually reading about the case which many here did not do. I looked at this as objectively as I could with the information I found and made a judgement or "opinion". If I was on the Grand Jury I would have voted the same way.

Feel free to make your judgement on this case as you clearly have. The quotes are just that, I never presented them as anything beyond that again I included sources unlike the people claiming "chokehold" or "stomping". Go blast them for making up facts and unfounded accusations or feel free to find a source for a witness that said that.

I know we hear "cop" on here and immediately judge. I'm sure a civil suit will follow and they will probably lose.

Like I said if this case is opened again ill keep an open mind.

 

[BattleSnail]

And you KNOW this was over aggressive policing how?

bc a down syndrome person was killed simply because he wouldn't get out of his seat and the caretaker asked the cops to chill the **** out and give her time to handle it. Rather, they decided it was "show time" and crushed his ****ing larynx. Seriously dude, what is so hard for you here?

 

[taz-2005]

bc a down syndrome person was killed simply because he wouldn't get out of his seat and the caretaker asked the cops to chill the **** out and give her time to handle it. Rather, they decided it was "show time" and crushed his ****ing larynx. Seriously dude, what is so hard for you here?

Don't use the word "dude" it seriously undermines any credible argument you are trying to make.

Does this make you happy? all cops are homicidal crazies.

 

[BattleSnail]

ok dude

Don't use the word "dude" it seriously undermines any credible argument you are trying to make.

Does this make you happy? all cops are homicidal crazies.

 

[mav]

The victim managed to live 26 years with his condition. He had an episode with 3 "off-duty" cops and ends up dead. This was a case of overly-aggressive and poorly trained cops who MURDERED a man who was developmentally disabled and in poor physical condition. The cops didn't listen to the caregiver's advice, clearly more experienced than the cops in dealing with Down Syndrome Instead they fell back on their improper police training of physical confrontation to subdue a non-compliant suspect.

Had the off-duty cops not assaulted the victim, he would still be alive today. Had the victim not encountered these cops under these circumstances, the victim would still be alive. No one was in danger of harm, other than the victim from police brutality and eventually murder. The theater stood to lose $12 for a ticket. Any reasonable business would have just absorbed the loss and moved on. $12 is not worth a person's life.

I won't speak my opinion in public of what should happen to these cops.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Pretty tough to bruise a larynx and asphyxiate someone without touching them.

They removed the one person who knew how to deal with him and killed him in "a few minutes."

Sounds like murder to me.

This.

[sad2]

 

[Christian]

Nice to see Americas Heroes hard at work once again.

Maybe these cops were "trained" by those cops from Missouri, you know the ones who tasered that teenager Mace Hutchinson 19 times(which caused him to die) for not complying with their orders. To hell with the fact he was laying on the ground with a broken back, one should always obey and respect the authoritah.

 

[Christian]

I agree, I just don't think this is a typical "police brutality" case.

I wasn't there so I don't know how his larynx got crushed. I did find this though.

Following the Ethan Saylor case (updated July 18, 2013) | Down Syndrome Association of Greater St. Louis

Therein lies the problem, in today's society it seems so commonplace it's typical.

 

[Martlet]

This.

[sad2]

No, not this. She didn't know how to deal with him either.

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I hope all the pigs involved in this die a miserable slow death in front of their families

WTF is wrong with you?

 

[NewGunGuy]

No, not this. She didn't know how to deal with him either.

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WTF is wrong with you?

Don't flame someone for speaking their mind at how they feel, and why not? Every time some NAZI thug does something, who has to endure with the victims family sure as hell isn't the family of the NAZI now is it, it's all the taxpayers that have to front the bill! So in turn, that does give anyone else that wasn't directly involved the right to say anything they want since they are now affected also!!

Charles.

 

[In God We Trust]

Don't flame someone for speaking their mind at how they feel, and why not? Every time some NAZI thug does something, who has to endure with the victims family sure as hell isn't the family of the NAZI now is it, it's all the taxpayers that have to front the bill! So in turn, that does give anyone else that wasn't directly involved the right to say anything they want since they are now affected also!!

Charles.

It's hard to disagree in this case. There is no way a semi intelligent cop would wind up in this situation and not realize that the kid had some disability. You don't have to be a doctor to see what's going on.

This is one of the most blatant cases of incompetence I have ever seen. Murder may be a stretch, but manslaughter certainly .

 

[mav]

WTF is wrong with you?

WTF is wrong with you? Those pigs MURDERED a Down Syndrome afflicted person. Do you not get that? As I said, I won't say what I think should happen to those cops in public, but rest assured, they deserve the worst possible fate.

 

[BattleSnail]

WTF is wrong with you?

These piece of shit cops snuffed out a guy with down syndrome. I hope they all ****ing die.

No, not this. She didn't know how to deal with him either.

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WTF is wrong with you?

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

She didn't know how to deal with him either.

i would bet she did know how to deal with him and was dealing appropriately. It was just taking longer than the attention span of the idiot cops involved.