Cops kill Down Syndrome man

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There is really not enough facts to form an opinion, sounds like a very sad case either way. A grand jury didn't indict and the old saying is you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.
 
Can't really tell what happened, but ! if that is his real picture that should have sent a signal that the man had down syndrome, in that case unless he was a direct threat to the public he should have been granted some space and dealt with at a latter time, I have someone in my family that is handicapped or not quite right if you will, you are not going to reason with them if you provoke violence, calm talking is the key, just like little children they respond to happy and nice.

Tim
 
Officers at the scene were convinced he was carrying a Kaiser blade.

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Did they even try to coax him out of his seat? It doesn't sound like it. It sounded like a ground n' pound.
 
Saylor, 26, passed away earlier this year after his larynx was crushed during a confrontation that ended with three off-duty sheriff’s officers attempting to subdue the man.

Yeah, a boot on the neck tends to do that.

Downsie's can generally be coaxed along. No need to get physical.
 
That's absolutely true. You just need some patience and to work with them a little. You absolutely cannot force them to do anything, it just puts them into a rage.

Yep, but....

Don't you understand that cops don't have time for patience when they are facing combat on American neighborhood battlefields everyday and are surrounded by the enemy?

Patience is for the citizens.
 
There is really not enough facts to form an opinion, sounds like a very sad case either way. A grand jury didn't indict and the old saying is you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

Agreed it's a sad story and that we do not have enough info, but... the old saying is you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich if the DA wants an indictment.

What are the odds that the DA was looking to throw three nice fellows on the same side of the thin blue line in the slammer?
 
[bs2]

you don't need to crush someone's larynx to choke them out. You absolutely don't!

This is horseshit murder. If they had to disable him and wanted to choke him out, crushing his windpipe is ****ed up and it take a lot of force, but these *******s are better trained, right?
 
There is really not enough facts to form an opinion, sounds like a very sad case either way. A grand jury didn't indict and the old saying is you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

Yes there is and if the DA is friendly with the police (they work hand-in-hand, day-to-day) when they present their one-sided case to the grand jury (remember there is no rebuttal and no other side presented), they would get the results that they desire (no bill).

Police are not trained in dealing with these kind of people (Downs Syndrome) so they don't know how to interact properly. Also today's police work is "ask once, tazer them a moment later", no patience in working thru a situation where they are not directly threatened with a weapon.

Can't really tell what happened, but ! if that is his real picture that should have sent a signal that the man had down syndrome, in that case unless he was a direct threat to the public he should have been granted some space and dealt with at a latter time, I have someone in my family that is handicapped or not quite right if you will, you are not going to reason with them if you provoke violence, calm talking is the key, just like little children they respond to happy and nice.

Tim

My late Sister was born with Downs Syndrome and I learned how to deal with it. As stated above, threats don't work, they get belligerent and refuse to move. You can usually get them to do the right thing by gently reasoning with them (bribery works well - ice cream in particular).

Even if they let him sit thru a 2nd show, nobody would have been harmed. If the theater felt so strongly about it, they could have filed theft charges and a judge would have thrown it out of court afterwards. Stomping someone (anyone) over a $12 ticket is going way overboard. This is a case where I hope the family sues and wins a huge award from both the town (lack of proper training) and individual officers (poor judgment in controlling the situation).
 
Agreed it's a sad story and that we do not have enough info, but... the old saying is you can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich if the DA wants an indictment.

What are the odds that the DA was looking to throw three nice fellows on the same side of the thin blue line in the slammer?

Judge for yourself.

http://www.frederickcountymd.gov/documents/77/1017/Saylor Robert_201303221519159466.pdf

Charlie Smith, State’s Attorney for Frederick County, Maryland addressed the press regarding the Grand Jury’s decision in the matter of Robert Ethan Saylor. Mr. Smith stated “I want to again convey my sympathies and prayers to the family of Robert Ethan Saylor for their tragic and untimely loss occurring in January of this year. I have been in touch with them during the course of our Office’s involvement, and in fact have apprised them of the Grand Jury’s determination in this matter prior to this press release.
To avoid the appearance of impropriety, a decision was made to use the investigative function of the Grand Jury to review the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of Robert Saylor, and any potential criminality of the police officers involved.
The death of Robert Saylor occurred on January 12, 2013 inside Theater 9 Westview Cinemas in Frederick Maryland. The entire event happened in just a few minutes time. All 17 eyewitnesses wrote out statements concerning what they saw and heard, including his 18 year old caretaker. Mr. Saylor was asked to leave the theater and was verbally and physically resistant to the Deputies.
None of the deputies hit or kicked Mr. Saylor or used any force to the neck or head of Mr. Saylor. The only police equipment utilized by the Deputies was handcuffs.

Robert Saylor was on his stomach for a total of one to two minutes. When those around him noticed he was having a medical emergency, they immediately took off the handcuffs, and called for EMS and began CPR.
The Deputies employed police procedures pursuant to their training with the Frederick County Sheriff’s Office.
The opinion of the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner was that a 25 year old Caucasian male, ROBERT ETHAN SAYLOR, died of ASPHYXIA. Down’s Syndrome, Obesity, Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease, and Accessory Conduction Pathways of Heart, are also significant conditions....This individual was already compromised by his Down’s Syndrome, obesity, body habitus, and heart disease, making him more susceptible to sudden death in stressful conditions which would compromise his breathing. Using the medical definition of homicide (but for the actions of other individuals Mr. Saylor would not have died), the manner of death is best certified as HOMICIDE.
In Maryland, the Grand Jury serves as a protector of the public, and therefore may be asked to examine situations, such as police involved fatalities. It is common practice both here and in other Counties around the Country to utilize the Grand Jury as an independent body to assess the criminality of conduct. They do not decide civil liability or breaches of professional conduct, unless relevant to criminality.
Grand Jury is a secretive body and comment cannot be made on testimony occurring inside the courtroom. Nevertheless, it is the policy of the Frederick County State’s Attorneys Office to communicate the complete file to the Grand Jury, while explaining to them the current law on criminal homicide. This forum is not one for advocacy, but strictly for investigative purposes. Again, comment cannot be made on witness testimony but we can confirm that the Lead Investigator at the Frederick County Sheriff’s Office, the Deputy Medical Examiner, a police training expert, and all 3 involved Deputies were subpoenaed and did testify.
The Grand Jury has the option to continue the investigation and reconvene, or conclude their investigation with or without the formal presentment of criminal charges. The Grand Jury’s decision was to conclude their investigation without criminal charges. Therefore, our Office’s involvement, and that of the Grand Jury, is concluded.
J. Charles Smith III
State’s Attorney for Frederick County, Maryland
 
The care giver told then not to touch him that he'd freak out.
Most people with half a brain know most people like them don't like being touched .

Shit like this pisses me off
 
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Depending on what info was given the GJ . . .

They aren't trained to go out and ask all sorts of questions, query medical experts in the field, etc. on their own.

It is still a biased system and easily manipulated.

Obesity is a serious issue for DS and most have heart conditions as well. One member of the group home my Sister lived in died of heart failure. BUT asphyxia trumps all . . . if you can't breathe, you'll die regardless of other conditions that you might have! And that press release said he died of asphyxia! O2 is not optional, we all need it to survive.
 
You don't need to special type of training... you need some f'n common sense!
 
off duty to make it worse. power tripping egomaniacs. What is the need to wrestle someone to the ground? espcially when his caregiver stated it wouldnt make things better.

hope these cops are hung by there balls.
 
Yes there is and if the DA is friendly with the police (they work hand-in-hand, day-to-day) when they present their one-sided case to the grand jury (remember there is no rebuttal and no other side presented), they would get the results that they desire (no bill).

Police are not trained in dealing with these kind of people (Downs Syndrome) so they don't know how to interact properly. Also today's police work is "ask once, tazer them a moment later", no patience in working thru a situation where they are not directly threatened with a weapon.



My late Sister was born with Downs Syndrome and I learned how to deal with it. As stated above, threats don't work, they get belligerent and refuse to move. You can usually get them to do the right thing by gently reasoning with them (bribery works well - ice cream in particular).

Even if they let him sit thru a 2nd show, nobody would have been harmed. If the theater felt so strongly about it, they could have filed theft charges and a judge would have thrown it out of court afterwards. Stomping someone (anyone) over a $12 ticket is going way overboard. This is a case where I hope the family sues and wins a huge award from both the town (lack of proper training) and individual officers (poor judgment in controlling the situation).
Lack of proper training is the big culprit, I think. More unarmed control/takedown techniques should be taught at the academy and during refresher training. Many newer police stations have training rooms set up for this and are often used in womens' self-defense courses (I believe it is called RAD? Please correct me if I am wrong). Bob Koga, a martial arts expert (jiu-jitsu), retired after a 25 year career with LAPD. He was a strong proponent of the straight baton as opposed to the PR-24, because it was easier and faster to teach its proper use to police academy cadets. He strongly believed in simple, effective unarmed takedown techniques that could quickly be carried out on the street in real-life situations, as opposed to dojo exercises.
 
Yes there is and if the DA is friendly with the police (they work hand-in-hand, day-to-day) when they present their one-sided case to the grand jury (remember there is no rebuttal and no other side presented), they would get the results that they desire (no bill).

Police are not trained in dealing with these kind of people (Downs Syndrome) so they don't know how to interact properly. Also today's police work is "ask once, tazer them a moment later", no patience in working thru a situation where they are not directly threatened with a weapon.



My late Sister was born with Downs Syndrome and I learned how to deal with it. As stated above, threats don't work, they get belligerent and refuse to move. You can usually get them to do the right thing by gently reasoning with them (bribery works well - ice cream in particular).

Even if they let him sit thru a 2nd show, nobody would have been harmed. If the theater felt so strongly about it, they could have filed theft charges and a judge would have thrown it out of court afterwards. Stomping someone (anyone) over a $12 ticket is going way overboard. This is a case where I hope the family sues and wins a huge award from both the town (lack of proper training) and individual officers (poor judgment in controlling the situation).

Len you are saying "stomping" when there is 0 evidence of that. There were 18 eyewitnesses.

DA's are political animals, who would they be more beholden to? An electorate outraged at the death a disabled person or the police. If there was any chance the DA thought there was a case you'd think he'd let it go to trial just to have political cover.

There are plenty of better examples of over aggressive police, this isn't one if them. This is a tragic event. I'm sure the family will sue and the jury on that will figure that one out.
 
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Should the situation been handled better? Clearly yes.

Was this a Rodney King style beat down as some here have described? No

Yup, not the same at all. Rodney King didn't die.

So how is it reasonable to put him in a choke hold at all? It should have been quite obvious the guy was a big different if they had actually tried talking to him.
 

I find this complete bullshit, my grandfather was fatter then this kid and took several hard falls from his strokes and was found on the floor several times. He never died from asphixiation from being fat, that is so bullshit. They may not have hit him but cops tend to have a way of placing all there body weight on a person head with there knee that is more then enough to suffocate someone how is face down and in a panic gasping for air or to do damage to the esophagus.

lets not look into it further because a herd of sheep have spoken.
 
Yup, not the same at all. Rodney King didn't die.

So how is it reasonable to put him in a choke hold at all? It should have been quite obvious the guy was a big different if they had actually tried talking to him.

Where are you getting choke hold from? A source would be good because I can't find one.

"None of the deputies hit or kicked Mr. Saylor or used any force to the neck or head of Mr. Saylor. The only police equipment utilized by the Deputies was handcuffs."

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/ne...cle_062dc615-f6cb-5dec-b0d4-0db0bcde558a.html

In follow-up interviews, no one said they saw the officers grab Saylor in the neck area or in a chokehold.
 
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Where are you getting choke hold from? A source would be good because I can't find one.

"None of the deputies hit or kicked Mr. Saylor or used any force to the neck or head of Mr. Saylor. The only police equipment utilized by the Deputies was handcuffs."

Ok, how did his larynx get crushed?

Robert Saylor death ruled a homicide | WJLA.com

So, maybe the cops didn't hit, kick or choke hold him, but there was at very least substantial negligence if a person died while he was in their custody.
 
Ok, how did his larynx get crushed?

Robert Saylor death ruled a homicide | WJLA.com

So, maybe the cops didn't hit, kick or choke hold him, but there was at very least substantial negligence if a person died while he was in their custody.

I agree, I just don't think this is a typical "police brutality" case.

I wasn't there so I don't know how his larynx got crushed. I did find this though.

Following the Ethan Saylor case (updated July 18, 2013) | Down Syndrome Association of Greater St. Louis

According to a report by the Associated Press (read by DSAGSL via the Huffington Post), a new file release on Monday outlines the statement from Ethan’s caretaker and shedding more light on the case from her perspective. The file, which spans 98 pages, also includes statements from 22 different witnesses of the event. Here is an excerpt from the caretaker’s statement, as told by the AP:

The 18-year-old caretaker, whose name is redacted from the documents, wrote that she had been Saylor’s caretaker for three months before he died.

She said Saylor, known to his family as Ethan, had a history of angry outbursts, including one earlier that night. They had already seen the movie once and were outside the Frederick theater when she asked Saylor if he was ready to go home. Saylor began cursing and punched a storefront window, she told police.

Somewhat frightened, the caretaker called Saylor’s mother, Patti Saylor, of New Market.

“Patti told her to just wait him out and his attitude will change,” an investigator wrote in a follow-up interview report.

The caretaker then spoke by phone with another of Saylor’s caretakers. He advised her to leave Saylor in front of the theater while she got the car, giving him a few minutes alone to calm himself. But by the time she returned, Saylor had gone back into the theater and seated himself. As she walked in, a manager was telling Saylor he had to leave the auditorium.
 
I agree, I just don't think this is a typical "police brutality" case.

I wasn't there so I don't know. I did find this though.

Following the Ethan Saylor case (updated July 18, 2013) | Down Syndrome Association of Greater St. Louis

Oh, look at what you innocently left out of your quote:

"The report goes on to walk through the events of the night that led to Ethan’s death, with the caretaker adding that she asked to officers again to be patient and wait for Ethan to calm himself before speaking with him, but that before she knew what was happening the struggle between Ethan and the officers ensued."

What an unfortunate omission... it almost looks like one is cherry picking in the report to support a certain position, just like somebody falsely implied earlier that if a grand jury did not indict, there must be nothing to look at.
 
Oh, look at what you innocently left out of your quote:

"The report goes on to walk through the events of the night that led to Ethan’s death, with the caretaker adding that she asked to officers again to be patient and wait for Ethan to calm himself before speaking with him, but that before she knew what was happening the struggle between Ethan and the officers ensued."

What an unfortunate omission... it almost looks like one is cherry picking in the report to support a certain position, just like somebody falsely implied earlier that if a grand jury did not indict, there must be nothing to look at.

What are you implying? Copying and pasting on tablet is not 100 that is why I include links so you can read it for yourself.

Beside that info was already talked about earlier in this post. I was using this more for the first part about the angry outburst and punching a window and the fact they were outside then he, Ethan, went back in.

Beside what is an 18 doing as caretaker? I can't imagine she has the skills or training to deal with someone like that.
 
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Pretty tough to bruise a larynx and asphyxiate someone without touching them.

They removed the one person who knew how to deal with him and killed him in "a few minutes."

Sounds like murder to me.
 
They could have easily coaxed him out with a promise that he'd get to have them show him the blue lights/siren in a cruiser . . . and they should have called for a cruiser anyway.

DS folks are like kids in a big person's body . . . they love the blue/red lights and siren and he would have gone with them peacefully (no cuffs needed). [A few times when my Wife wanted to take my Sister shopping for clothes, she staunchly refused . . . so my Wife promised her ice cream after shopping and what do you know, my Sister agreed and went along peacefully. That's how you deal with DS . . . and why they are so obese, food is the one thing that gets them to do what you want when nothing else works.]

If his larynx was crushed it wasn't done merely by laying him out on his stomach, that is for certain. I read the original link & DA's statement, not the autopsy report.

As for cover, like in the Zimmerman case, if you withhold certain things from the GJ, they can reach the conclusion you want and you still have political cover. I suspect that is the case here.
 
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