Carry One In The Chamber

[M1911]

I have to disagree with you P2A. The SERPA holster is more prone to this than other holster designs. The SERPA holster requires you to push inward with your index finger to release the holster, then release the pressure with your index finger during the draw so that it doesn't wind up in the trigger guard.

The SERPA design is more prone to an NDs that other retention holsters that do not require inward pressure with the index finger.

 

[physics]

This is a question of risk management

Any notion that having one in the chamber prepares one for all situations or that carrying with an empty chamber leaves one defenseless are both wrong.
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Someone, even a novice, carrying a firearm securely and safely is in a better position to protect themselves and those around them than someone who has left their firearm at home because they are uncomfortable with the perceived risk of an AD.

Good points, newenglandman.

It's not macho to say so, but this debate is about risk management. The issues of personal defense, whether you carry, or how you carry should be evaluated in terms of risk management. How much risk is acceptable, and is zero risk a realistic objective?

Some people seem to think personal defense is an absolute - that they can achieve zero risk. I've read posts in other threads from people that believe it is necessary to carry inside their homes. OK - fair enough, but is that safe enough? Maybe they should have a backup piece on their ankle too? Maybe they should wall up all their doors and windows with cinder block? Maybe they should move to a bunker in Antarctica? Is that safe enough?

The way I see it, if you have a pistol at home you are an order of magnitude safer (better prepared) than a person with no firearm in the house. If you carry, you are orders of magnitude more secure than people who don't. Comparatively, if you carry with one in the tube, you are are only marginally safer than a person with an empty chamber.

 

[P2A]

I have to disagree with you P2A. The SERPA holster is more prone to this than other holster designs. The SERPA holster requires you to push inward with your index finger to release the holster, then release the pressure with your index finger during the draw so that it doesn't wind up in the trigger guard.

The SERPA design is more prone to an NDs that other retention holsters that do not require inward pressure with the index finger.

Listen dude I'm not a fan of this holster, I think its a piece of shit. At the end of the day barring a mechanical malfunction of the weapon, it going bang is totally the end users fault. What ever gear you use you need to be proficient with. I've used the SERPA, its intuitive and fast, your trigger finger is naturally on the button when you go for your weapon; as it is in a passive retention holster. Only light pressure is needed to release the weapon, it doesnt change the grip on the pistol. Now we can talk about "Body alarm reaction" and all the other BS that is put out there. Here to tell you muscle memory is what you will do in this situation. If you train with a piece of gear long enough, complete enough repetitions it becomes muscle memory. When you are in your "dynamic critical incident" or what ever book selling term is out this week, that is what you will reduce down to. At the end of the day there is NO EXCUSE for any ND. None. Negligent Discharge. I see your point but if your telling me a holster leads to incompetence and negligence then ok, but I dont think so. Maybe for the weekend shooter that reads SWAT its acceptable to have an ND. Where I work, you get fired for it and sent home. So if you disagree with me thats fine, I know what I'm talking about.

 

[ath817]

I always carry with one in the chamber.

 

[appraiser]

here is some food for thought for carrying one in the pipe, and it is called the Tueller maneuver. (google it)

The readers digest version is a trained cop, needs A MINIMUM 21 feet of distance between himself and a perp with an edged weapon to get the gun out of the holster and get 2 shots off. Anything less than 21 feet is going to allow the bad guy to get to him before he can be stopped with the service pistol.

Now look at the typical civilian. We are not as well trained as a cop (humor me for the sake of discussion) so we need more than 21 feet minimum distance to clear leather, double tap, and be able to go home to the wife and kids tonight. So add to the extra distance the amount of distance a bad guy is going to have to get to you while you are trying to chamber a round. Anyone that gets within 40 feet of you with a knife is going to get to you. Anyone that pulls a loaded gun on you is going to get the first 5 shots off, and if you are hit pulling the slide back is a bitch when you only have the use of one arm or in pain.

How much of a tactical advantage are you willing to give up to the bad guy?

 

[holyroler]

do i...

do i get an award for starting a popular thread?

i looked into the holsters you guys have suggested. comptac looks like the best so far.

thoughts?

 

[MXD]

do i get an award for starting a popular thread?

i looked into the holsters you guys have suggested. comptac looks like the best so far.

thoughts?

I'm torn between the comptac and the crossbreed.

 

[GSG]

If you develop safety habits and keep reinforcing them on yourself continually, you'll never have an ND.

So I see your not one of the people who say "If you own a gun long enough you'll have an ND, everyone does."

I agree with you. Stay safe, stay consistent, and you won't have issues.

Something else that helped me was loading a snap cap in the chamber, cocking it, then tossing it all over the house and shaking and knocking into walls and doors with it, etc... After really messing with it trying to get the gun to 'fire' and seeing that it just wouldnt 'go off' really put my mind at ease.

I've never heard of anyone going that extreme before, but good for you, +1 for sharing that idea.

Please get a PROPER leather or kydex holster for your gun. And even more importantly than that, get a PROPER belt.

I didn't think having a proper belt was a big deal until I actually got one. It makes a HUGE difference in ease of carry and concealability. Couple it with a quality holster and concealed carry is no longer a chore.

Some of you guys are truly delusional if you think that you will always have the time and the right number of hands to chamber a round before a fight.

I agree. Things happen fast.

You spent $500 on a gun. You spend hundreds on ammunition. And you've spent $12 on a POS holster that won't retain the gun worth a damn.

Get yourself a proper holster. There are many to choose from. In general, you won't find a good holster at a gun store.

Agreed, but the part I bolded really bothers me. They'll sell you the most exotic expensive gun and ammo combo you can think of, but when you ask for holsters they look confused and suggest you shop online.

To the OP, with holsters, you'll have to find one that fits you. I've gone through a few different ones before settling down (Safariland Raptor at work [armed security], Crossbreed tuckable or Safariland model 527 when not working, depending on the clothing). Your best bet is to try as many as you can before buying.

The only way to eliminate this would be to either cycle through ammo in the magazine or leave it chambered at all times correct? I am a bit nervous of leaving a "hot" gun around my house even though it is locked up. The best way to avoid an accident is to make it impossible so I figured if I never have one in the chamber in my house, I will drastically reduce my already low low chances of an AD.

MXD, my advice would be to keep the gun loaded all the time if you plan to use it for self defense. That way rushing to the safe when you hear an intruder you don't treat the gun differently than you do when carrying it.

My guns are loaded all the time, but I still double check to make sure it's loaded before putting it on, so that I never get caught not knowing.

Find a method that works for you, and stick with it.

here is some food for thought for carrying one in the pipe, and it is called the Tueller maneuver. (google it)

Glad you brought up the Tuller Drill. Good advice.


A few people have suggested getting training before carrying. I think training is a must have, but weigh your own circumstances. If you need a gun now, you need it now.

As an example, I give you this incident.

Among the most dangerous jobs in America is that of a convenience store clerk. Clerks have been robbed, shot, beaten, stabbed, kidnapped, raped, and abused in other ways. Rarely a day goes by that a clerk isn’t murdered or assaulted somewhere in this country. For that reason, many keep guns beneath the counter for protection. Most convenience stores have video cameras and it was such a camera that caught a robbery in progress on December 4, 2004.

At 7:30 a.m., on December 4, 2004, Karen Smith was working behind the counter of the Sunoco gas station on Cleveland Avenue in Columbus, Ohio. When a man walked into the store, Karen instinctively knew he wasn’t there to buy gas. She later said he acted nervous, glancing around stealthily until all the customers left.

Desmond Thompson was an addict with a long criminal past. When the store emptied, he walked to the counter and demanded money. Later, after viewing the video, Detective Drew McEvoy said, “You can see where [Thompson has] got his left hand in his pocket and he’s banging on the counter, implying he’s got a gun.”

Karen decided not to be a hero. She opened the drawer and handed over the the cash, expecting him to take it and bolt out the door. He didn’t. Instead, Thompson ordered her to come out from behind the counter. Karen knew that this spelled the ultimate danger. She could be assaulted, kidnapped, or worse.

The video shows Karen reaching into a drawer beneath the counter and coming up with a .38-caliber revolver. She fires once and Thompson drops to the floor. “I didn’t hesitate,” Karen said. “He acted like he [had a gun].” After shooting the robber, Karen called 911. It was discovered by paramedics that Thomspon had been shot in the shoulder.

McEvoy later quipped to reporters: “The best advice I can give [to potential robbers] is don’t rob a store where Mrs. Smith is working.”

The following cases illustrate the dangers convenience store clerks face every day. In 1999, pretty Katie Poirier was abducted from a Conoco station in Moose Lake, Minnesota by a convicted sex offender named Donald Blom. He took her to his home where he raped and murdered her then burned her body so that only bone and tooth fragments were ever found.

Lee Ann Larmon, 22, worked at a rural convenience store in Hernando County, Florida, near Brooksville. Two wannabe-Satanists abducted her and drove her into a swamp where they tortured, raped, and murdered her. The brutality of the crime was so horrific that when a local newspaper published the gory details, it was driven out of business. This crime also inspired a Florida law that requires two clerks to work night-shifts in convenience stores.

Johnny James was executed in Texas for abducting two women, forcing them to have sex with each other, sodomizing them, and then shooting them in the head. One of the women was a clerk he had kidnapped from a convenience store.

Desmond Thompson was sentenced to 4 years in prison. He’ll be released in 2010, presumably to go back to committing new crimes. The shooting was ruled self-defense and Karen Smith was not charged.

What this doesn't mention is that she'd never fired a gun before in her life when this took place. She had no training, no CCW badge, nothing going for her but brains and common sense.

This is the video of the shooting, complete with an interview with the store clerk.

So, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mexican carrying a Jennings puts you at the ability level of a Blackwater operator. But I am saying that guns are tools, and most self defense doesn't require a class for one to survive.

Training is magnificent, but please don't think you're going to accidentally kill the world because you haven't taken a class yet.

Great info in this thread all around though, I've avoided it for now fearing that it would be another carrying chambered vs. carrying unchambered arguments.

 

[GSF]

here is some food for thought for carrying one in the pipe, and it is called the Tueller maneuver. (google it)

The readers digest version is a trained cop, needs A MINIMUM 21 feet of distance between himself and a perp with an edged weapon to get the gun out of the holster and get 2 shots off. Anything less than 21 feet is going to allow the bad guy to get to him before he can be stopped with the service pistol.

Now look at the typical civilian. We are not as well trained as a cop (humor me for the sake of discussion) so we need more than 21 feet minimum distance to clear leather, double tap, and be able to go home to the wife and kids tonight. So add to the extra distance the amount of distance a bad guy is going to have to get to you while you are trying to chamber a round. Anyone that gets within 40 feet of you with a knife is going to get to you. Anyone that pulls a loaded gun on you is going to get the first 5 shots off, and if you are hit pulling the slide back is a bitch when you only have the use of one arm or in pain.

How much of a tactical advantage are you willing to give up to the bad guy?

Anytime a person (CCW) unexpectedly has a gun pulled on them, their first tactical action is MOVING, survival increases with NOT being a stationary target and getting out of the kill zone (escape). Move to cover, maybe while drawing your GUN, depending on the amount of lead being put on you.

I've been trained using a Glock 19, i now carry a Glock 36, or 29, and my training with only one good arm (training purposes) was never a problem which couldn't be overcome. Loading/reloading and racking ready to return fire was never a problem.

I use a Israeli draw (Its Not For Everyone) unless my environment changes and then i go HOT, i don't promote carrying a cold weapon. But there's much more to being ready than just carrying hot.

Having a weapon (GUN) going from conceal to exposer, then drawing, aiming, and pulling the trigger in a close up (within 15 feet) situation takes training. Under stressful times we DEFAULT to our training, if you have no training with will you DEFAULT too.

Training videos are great to watch, but their under perfect conditions, the instructor has a exposed weapon in a non-retention holstered, which is great if you carry in a open carry state. It wouldn't be practical for (instructional purposes) the instructor to conceal carry under their hood, ski jacket, or coat and show a quick draw or how to draw your Gun.

If your in a northeast state and its 10-20 degrees or just plain cold, your chamber concealed GUN your carrying on your hip under 2-4 layers of clothing, is not gonna be whipped out, only in Hollywood.

Your bodyguards/secret service types practice, and are very good at a quick tactical draws, but that's part of their job description, they train for that, they aren't average citizens in everyday normal conditions. People who witness, or involve in traumatic spontaneous situations tend to freeze for a moment, unless you work ( bodyguard/SS ) in a ready condition for aggression.

Carrying one chambered is great.... but then what.

 

[Blitz1]

I'm torn between the comptac and the crossbreed.

I have a comp-tac mtac, I really like it and I would most certainly recommend it.

 

[Jose]

I have a Crossbreed that sits collecting dust in the holster box.

This is the most comfortable IWB holster I have ever tried. It has to be to allow you to carry a S&W .44 Magnum all day long in complete comfort and invisible under an untucked polo shirt. Lobo Gunleather is the maker, contact Ray Cory at [email protected].

 

[M1911]

Listen dude I'm not a fan of this holster, I think its a piece of shit. At the end of the day barring a mechanical malfunction of the weapon, it going bang is totally the end users fault. What ever gear you use you need to be proficient with. I've used the SERPA, its intuitive and fast, your trigger finger is naturally on the button when you go for your weapon; as it is in a passive retention holster. Only light pressure is needed to release the weapon, it doesnt change the grip on the pistol. Now we can talk about "Body alarm reaction" and all the other BS that is put out there. Here to tell you muscle memory is what you will do in this situation. If you train with a piece of gear long enough, complete enough repetitions it becomes muscle memory. When you are in your "dynamic critical incident" or what ever book selling term is out this week, that is what you will reduce down to. At the end of the day there is NO EXCUSE for any ND. None. Negligent Discharge.

SERPA requires you to press inwards with your trigger finger to release the holster. If you maintain that inward pressure too long as you draw, your finger can wind up on your trigger.

Can you draw from a SERPA safely? Yes. Can you draw unsafely from other holsters? Yes. That doesn't change the fact that the SERPA holster design makes it more easy to screw up than other holster designs.

 

[Bob P]

That's all good advice. Honestly, the only reason that I did not shell out the cash for a real nice IWB holster is because I do not think the M&P will be my regular carry gun for very long. I know a hundred bucks isn't the end of the world but in times like these, I have to be a bit more cautious.

As far as being confused about what state my gun is in, I can agree that it is possible if I need to draw my weapon that I could get confused but as far as the other way around (AD), even when I know it's not chambered, I still treat it as if it was (Is that rule 1 or 2?). Every time I walk in my front door, I stop in the front hall behind the interior door and drop the mag and rack it 4 times then lock it open, visually inspect it, point it at the light till I see some light coming through the barrel into the mag well, then I put my finger over the front of the barrel and watch it go black. Finally, I close the slide, dry fire it, and re insert the mag. That is my religious routine regardless of wht state I think it's in.

Then sell the holster with the gun when you sell the gun. Carrying with a crappy holster is a safety issue.

 

[Bob P]

I have a comp-tac mtac, I really like it and I would most certainly recommend it.

Ditto. It's what I'm currently using as well. I used to carry with the C-Tac (an all kydex version of the same holster) and this is much more comfortable.

 

[Hanwei]

SERPA requires you to press inwards with your trigger finger to release the holster. If you maintain that inward pressure too long as you draw, your finger can wind up on your trigger.

Can you draw from a SERPA safely? Yes. Can you draw unsafely from other holsters? Yes. That doesn't change the fact that the SERPA holster design makes it more easy to screw up than other holster designs.

I'm going to have to disagree here as well... Mostly because when I draw from my Serpa holster, my trigger finger, is nowhere near the trigger, and this is by design.

With the gun in the holster:

1. Grip gun, and put trigger finger on Serpa release button.
2. Depress Serpa release button and start to draw gun.
3. As you draw the gun, drag the trigger finger from the release button up along the holster until the gun clears the holster.
4. As the gun clears the holster your trigger finger will naturally be positioned along the FRAME of the gun.

People who claim that drawing a gun from a Serpa holster will leave your trigger finger on the trigger have never drawn from a Serpa holster.

I have a Serpa holster for my Sig 228, 1911's, Glocks, and HK USPc. And it doesn't matter which gun/holster combo I use... when I draw the gun from the holster, my trigger finger is left positioned along the frame of the gun.

Even if the Serpa button requires someone to press inwards while drawing, your trigger finger still lands on the frame of the gun once it clears the holster. Could someone press so hard "under pressure" that their finger slips into the trigger guard area? Sure. But anyone drawing from ANY holster "under pressure" could have a "squeeze" reflex, causing their trigger finger to slip into their trigger guard.

Saying that Serpa holsters cause ND's is like saying guns cause murders.

I'm going to chalk the whole Serpa internet myth up to be just that. A few incidents of people f***ing up while using Serpa holsters becomes "omg, Serpa holsters are the #1 cause of ND's around the world!"

 

[jar]

I hate the SERPA because it snags on the draw unless I get the angle I pull the gun absolutely perfect. If it causes fumbled draws in my own practice, forget it when against a resisting opponent in a close quarters situation.

 

[GSG]

I don't like the Serpa because it's the only holster I've ever used where the release is actuated with your index finger, rather than the thumb. It's too...confusing for me.

 

[Hanwei]

I'm not saying the Serpa holster is the best one out there, nor that everyone should have one. I'm just saying that it's silly to blame ND's on a holster when it's 100% user error.

And regarding holsters with retention... if a person doesn't practice drawing from his/her retention holster... be it a thumb break or a Serpa button release... when it counts, they will be fumbling no matter what.

If you have and train with a Serpa holster... it will not be "confusing" for you.

 

[GSG]

Maybe I should re-phrase that.

I don't like the Serpa because it has the potential to be confusing. My trigger finger does the shooting, and my thumb opens my holsters that need opening.

 

[Hanwei]

nevermind.

 

[kiver]

Since we are on the topic of holsters. I am looking for recommendations for a quality 1911 IWB holster that prevents the beavertail from digging into my gut....

 

[SteelShooter]

Since we are on the topic of holsters. I am looking for recommendations for a quality 1911 IWB holster that prevents the beavertail from digging into my gut....

Try This to start

 

[Bob P]

Is that the Bro?

 

[M1911]

I'm not saying the Serpa holster is the best one out there, nor that everyone should have one. I'm just saying that it's silly to blame ND's on a holster when it's 100% user error.

I'm not blaming the SERPA holster for NDs. I'm saying that the SERPA design is poor and makes NDs more likely to happen.

As an analogy, consider the ergonomic design of aircraft cockpits. The design has improved through the studying of accidents. They've found that certain designs made it more likely for an accident to occur. You want to make vital, but different, switches feel different, so that the pilot can distinguish them by feel.

For example, suppose you put engine shut-off switches adjacent to and of the same feel as the throttle levers. You could argue to high heaven that it's a training issue -- pay attention to what you are grabbing! But pilots would still mistakenly grab the engine shutoffs and shutdown the engines on final approach, when they meant to simply reduce the throttle. The result would be lots of crashes short of the runway. In such a situation, the cockpit design didn't cause the accident, but it sure didn't help and there is a better way.

Same is true of the SERPA. It doesn't cause NDs. But NDs are more likely with it than with other holsters of better design, IMNSHO. That's why a number of ranges (including FLETC, IIRC) have banned the holster from their ranges.

 

[GSG]

Since we are on the topic of holsters. I am looking for recommendations for a quality 1911 IWB holster that prevents the beavertail from digging into my gut....

Try The Crossbreed Supertuck

 

[JoeyD]

I just started carrying a few weeks ago. I bought an elite IWB holster which was cheap and I love it. It fits great and holds the gun tight. I carry with one in the chamber as I figured if I pull the gun I intend to fire it.
It gave me a weird feeling at 1st as I was constantly thinking about it, that lasted a few days and now it feels normal and I carry as soon as I get dressed.

 

[Sigmond]

I wouldnt carry one in the chamber until you are really familiar with the gun and have l charged the gun many times. Practice charging the slide and especially unloading the round from the chamber...if you have children dont carry with one in the chamber or keep it in the house loaded and unlocked. An easy gun to carry charged is a glock 23 0r 27. There really simple and safe.

 

[GSG]

if you have children dont carry with one in the chamber

 

[P2A]

SERPA

SERPA requires you to press inwards with your trigger finger to release the holster. If you maintain that inward pressure too long as you draw, your finger can wind up on your trigger.

Can you draw from a SERPA safely? Yes. Can you draw unsafely from other holsters? Yes. That doesn't change the fact that the SERPA holster design makes it more easy to screw up than other holster designs.

There is no reason to continue pushing once the pistol is released. It comes down to user error. If you cant handle a piece of equipment, dont own it. Ive used SERPAs, I have never had a ND, why a few reasons, I have good basic gun handling skills, I follow basic safety rules, and biggest, I'm not a complete moron, and am pretty competent. If you want to bitch about a product man, thats fine. Just bitch about the right parts like "the button breaks" or "it separates when being drawn" not about how it causes NDs. Because, NDs are completely user error, if you follow the basic fundamentals youll be GTG. The button doesnt make it easier, the user levels competence makes it easier to screw up. A ND is 100% user malfunction, not equipment. Whether it be NDing when drawing, or doing correcting malfunctions its still negligent. There is no argument to this.

 

[Hanwei]

I'm not blaming the SERPA holster for NDs. I'm saying that the SERPA design is poor and makes NDs more likely to happen.

As an analogy, consider the ergonomic design of aircraft cockpits. The design has improved through the studying of accidents. They've found that certain designs made it more likely for an accident to occur. You want to make vital, but different, switches feel different, so that the pilot can distinguish them by feel.

For example, suppose you put engine shut-off switches adjacent to and of the same feel as the throttle levers. You could argue to high heaven that it's a training issue -- pay attention to what you are grabbing! But pilots would still mistakenly grab the engine shutoffs and shutdown the engines on final approach, when they meant to simply reduce the throttle. The result would be lots of crashes short of the runway. In such a situation, the cockpit design didn't cause the accident, but it sure didn't help and there is a better way.

Same is true of the SERPA. It doesn't cause NDs. But NDs are more likely with it than with other holsters of better design, IMNSHO. That's why a number of ranges (including FLETC, IIRC) have banned the holster from their ranges.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As much as I understand your point, I just disagree that the Serpa holster makes ND's more likely. I use them... and I don't feel like I'm in any more danger of an ND than when I use any other holster.