Bug out Rifle

Takis48 said:
My father loves his AR-15, but I'm not sure you would want one in a bug-out scenario. Remember how back in the Vietnam War soldiers were having issues with the M-16 and keeping it clean?? What would happen is that the gun would need to be cleaned quite often and run "wet". When soldiers would drop them in the sand, mud, dirt, etc they would jam up. In a bug-out scenario, you may not have a proper cleaning kit or one at all. For this reason, I would have to go with an AK variant. They run in any and all situations and conditions. 30 rounds of 7.62x39mm is great in a self-defense scenario, and much like the AR-15's, you can carry several magazines containing hundreds of rounds. If time would allow me, I would also grab an AR-7 survival rifle, and a pump action shotgun (preferably a Benelli) Having a .22LR can be great for hunting small game, and so can a shotgun. You have to keep all these in mind, but I would grab an AK-47 Variant.
Click to expand...

The initial issues with the M16 were less related to design flaws and more about the propellant that was used in the round. That coupled with messaging to the troops that rifle "never" needed to be cleaned, lead to the jamming issues. Once the propellant was changed and troops trained, the M16 assumed its role as one of the most effective, longest serving, most widely used man killers in the history of modern firearms. Take a look and see how many of the world’s elite military forces are NOT using an M16 variant.
The AK is a great rifle as well, but in a bug out scenario weight is going to be a major factor. So, I want the most number of bangs per pound. A loaded 30 round AK mag weighs almost twice as much as an AR mag (about 2 pounds vs. 1 pound).
Bottom line is that either would be a great choice. But perpetuating un-truths about the reliability of the AR platform is not necessary.
- Chris
 
Takis48 said:
My father loves his AR-15, but I'm not sure you would want one in a bug-out scenario. Remember how back in the Vietnam War soldiers were having issues with the M-16 and keeping it clean?? What would happen is that the gun would need to be cleaned quite often and run "wet". When soldiers would drop them in the sand, mud, dirt, etc they would jam up. In a bug-out scenario, you may not have a proper cleaning kit or one at all. For this reason, I would have to go with an AK variant. They run in any and all situations and conditions. 30 rounds of 7.62x39mm is great in a self-defense scenario, and much like the AR-15's, you can carry several magazines containing hundreds of rounds. If time would allow me, I would also grab an AR-7 survival rifle, and a pump action shotgun (preferably a Benelli) Having a .22LR can be great for hunting small game, and so can a shotgun. You have to keep all these in mind, but I would grab an AK-47 Variant.
Click to expand...

What about a Piston AR?
 
Takis48 said:
When soldiers would drop them in the sand, mud, dirt, etc they would jam up. In a bug-out scenario, you may not have a proper cleaning kit or one at all. For this reason, I would have to go with an AK variant.
Click to expand...

Queue the CavArms dirt test video. Root around on Youtuebe and you can see the same test on an AK. Guess which one fared better.

B

 
Last edited by a moderator:
bpm990d said:
Queue the CavArms dirt test video. Root around on Youtuebe and you can see the same test on an AK. Guess which one fared better.

B

Click to expand...


What he's doing there isn't exactly what I would call a "realistic test" . If he really wants to test how well the rifle is going to stand up to field conditions he ought to be running full tilt across that area he is in and face plant himself - and his rifle - into the mound of sand. Then he drop it out of the Jeep while jumping across the same berm at 30mph.

Carefully shoveling sand on top of the rifle and carefully driving over it while it is buried (which actually helps to disperse the ground pressure from the tires into the surrounding dirt) - isn't really duplicating field conditions.

What's he going to do next - spray water on it from a Windex bottle and say that shows the rifle can work when exposed to harsh water conditions?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Danrk6 said:
I don't go with an AR because it is light. Mine weighs in at 9.2 pounds. The fact that there are parts readily available is only a plus. I run this rifle because when I slap a mag into the well and pull the trigger it goes bang and holds hard every time. It is simple to clean (blah blah blah piston blah blah blah, it takes me 5-10 minutes to clean my rifle every few thousand rounds with a few drops of oil and a rag), rugged, never jams, and highly customizable.
Click to expand...

To each his own...I'll run my Sig because in over 2500 rounds it has never jammed. I cannot say that about my AR's or any AR that i have had first hand experiences with. That's not to say that they don't exist or that they are not common, because most people that prefer them, theirs have been flawless. What i am saying is that when/if SHTF there probably won't be time, or supplies to clean your rifle. For those running AK's then they will gain some points in reliability in that respect and sacrifice in other fields. For those running 10/22's, well they may have a different plan and purpose.

I just see these new developments by companies like Sig, Ruger, HK, FN, Bushmaster (just to name a few) that all utilize the piston system for a reason. They are expanding on the platforms to try and create better, more combat effective rifles. There are more than just 2 sides of the fence (AK vs. AR) so why not try to get the best of both worlds?
 
Timber said:
I'm curious. How many of you folks that swear by AKs have actually run 2-4k through one without cleaning it over a 48 hr training regimen?

I tend to find that most of the "AK's are super reliable" internet commando types are quoting the History channel because they can't afford the ammo to actually run one into the ground. They buy an AK because it's a cheap alternative to a real battle rifle.
Click to expand...

This

The last carbine class I attended, I burned 1600 rounds in two days and only added a couple of drops of oil into the bolt's cam pin slot. Mind you the rifle was not acting like it needed lube at all. I just had a break in the action and did it anyway. The only stoppages I had all weekend long ended when the f-ed up magazine was thrown away.

It probably would have gone the entire weekend without needing any more lube than what it had when I started on Saturday morning.
 
calsdad said:
What he's doing there isn't exactly what I would call a "realistic test" . If he really wants to test how well the rifle is going to stand up to field conditions he ought to be running full tilt across that area he is in and face plant himself - and his rifle - into the mound of sand. Then he drop it out of the Jeep while jumping across the same berm at 30mph.

Carefully shoveling sand on top of the rifle and carefully driving over it while it is buried (which actually helps to disperse the ground pressure from the tires into the surrounding dirt) - isn't really duplicating field conditions.

What's he going to do next - spray water on it from a Windex bottle and say that shows the rifle can work when exposed to harsh water conditions?
Click to expand...

WTF?
 
I say if you're gonna try to compare an AR to an AK you throw the sand in WITH THE BOLT OPEN.

I use and AR and I just make sure I don't intentionally bury it or run it over with my car.
 
xtry51 said:
I say if you're gonna try to compare an AR to an AK you throw the sand in WITH THE BOLT OPEN.
Click to expand...

That was exactly my thought. If the bolt is close, I guess that means some sand/dirt/whatever gets in, but not a lot.

Whatever. I'm no operator/ninja/pirate/militia member. I just like like rifles because it's fun to try and be as accurate as possible (in whatever the context), my back can't play golf, they're fun to build, the black ones look all mean and stuff, they're cool from a machine aspect, I like having a bit of insurance should the need arise and I'm still juvenile enough to like blowing holes in things when I can do so safely.

The chances of me having to "bug out" seem exceedingly slim but if it happens, I'll take any of the center fire rifles in my safe, but I'd probably take my XCR first.
 
Timber said:
I'm curious. How many of you folks that swear by AKs have actually run 2-4k through one without cleaning it over a 48 hr training regimen?

I tend to find that most of the "AK's are super reliable" internet commando types are quoting the History channel because they can't afford the ammo to actually run one into the ground. They buy an AK because it's a cheap alternative to a real battle rifle.
Click to expand...

+1

Out of my personal experience with the handful of AKs I have used, they have all jammed on me constantly. Sometimes they would even jam a number of times exceeding the number of rounds in the magazine. I don't own an AK, which is not to say I wouldn't mind owning one as a cheap range toy, but I will never buy the reliability argument.

ETA: I routinely burn through a couple thousand rounds in between cleaning my ARs, and it is never because they are ceasing to function.
 
Last edited:
I'll stick with my Sig 556. Over 2000 rounds, 1 cleaning (well lube was about the extent of it), no failures. It will take any ammo I feed it, easy to field strip and remarkably simple in it's operation. It really is the best of both worlds AR and AK.

[pot]
 
Blitz1 said:
I'll stick with my Sig 556. Over 2000 rounds, 1 cleaning (well lube was about the extent of it), no failures. It will take any ammo I feed it, easy to field strip and remarkably simple in it's operation. It really is the best of both worlds AR and AK.

[pot]
Click to expand...

I had a good one too (wish I hadn't sold it), it ran like a top. They only think I didn't like about it was that I could not have a folder on it :(

However, my buddy had one that was a POS, jamm-o-matic. That's the problem these rifles, they are hit or miss. If you get a good one you are golden, but it's a roll of the dice. Although hopefully sig will get their act together at some point.
 
Mass-diver said:
I had a good one too (wish I hadn't sold it), it ran like a top. They only think I didn't like about it was that I could not have a folder on it :(

However, my buddy had one that was a POS, jamm-o-matic. That's the problem these rifles, they are hit or miss. If you get a good one you are golden, but it's a roll of the dice. Although hopefully sig will get their act together at some point.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I want a folder too. I just got the ACE Stock last night. I can always make it a folder when I move to Derek's house, I mean NH.

I know exactly what You're talking about, that issue has been corrected, it actually only effected a small amount of the rifles out there. No worries with any rifles made 2010 or late 2009 and after, I'm not sure of the exact date.
 
fortitude42 said:
What i am saying is that when/if SHTF there probably won't be time, or supplies to clean your rifle.
Click to expand...

Are you shitting me? I have cleaning supplies in my cabinet that are well over three years old and I'm not about to run out. And considering how guns are simple machines and I could walk into my garage and have 5 lifetimes worth of cleaning supplies for all my guns if I realized that "brake cleaner" will clean more than just brakes and that "motor oil" will lube more than just motors, I get the impression you don't know how to think outside the box.
 
Gonzo said:
Are you shitting me? I have cleaning supplies in my cabinet that are well over three years old and I'm not about to run out. And considering how guns are simple machines and I could walk into my garage and have 5 lifetimes worth of cleaning supplies for all my guns if I realized that "brake cleaner" will clean more than just brakes and that "motor oil" will lube more than just motors, I get the impression you don't know how to think outside the box.
Click to expand...

There is nothing simple about an AR. [hmmm]

[smile][wink]
 
Do you have an AK? Has your dad let you run his AR hard?
Click to expand...

Timber, I've only put a few hundred rounds through the AR but nothing more than that. I don't own an AK, but I had the opportunity to shoot one while in Greece. My uncle is an officer in the Hellenic Navy and took me to the range to shoot. Out of the M-16, AK-47, and H&K G3, I liked the AK better. The M-16 is more comfortable going fully-auto, while the AK is better in semi-auto (just all over the place in fully auto). I hated the H&K with a passion.
 
Last edited:
SHTF rifle?

16" AR15
Magpul BUIS with Eotech 552 and flip away 3X
Fist full of PMags
A few battle bags of ammo

Works equally well on rags or zombies
 

Similar threads

Survival Rifles of the USAF...
Replies
4
Views
716
Tnkrclwn
T
Bugging in
2 3
Replies
73
Views
5K
AHM
AHM
Bug out bag adventure
Replies
8
Views
654
Jason m
Jason m
  • Poll
Survey: What prep turned out to be most useful in Pandemic?
2 3
Replies
73
Views
4K
rep308
rep308
Kifaru "Outlaw" East Coast Rendezvous 2020
Replies
0
Views
505
Andy in NH
Andy in NH
Back
Top Bottom