AZ - Jose Guerena Shot 60 Times By SWAT Team

[beaker]

Holy shit...If they hit him 60 times...Lessee now carry the two...carry the 1...

That means they fired 12,000 rounds!

This is BS. He didn't shoot and the safety was on. These guys are completely inept. Prison should be in their future.

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[schnips]

amazing how many people dont get the joke "is NES anti cop" reference.

How new are some of you guys?

That wasn't even that long ago

 

[DrRansom]

Nope, anti-moron, which includes the cops in this story and the people who take up their flag to apologize for and defend them

nope, we're pro citizen

Nope, anti-tyranny.

Rep for all.

Oh, and some of us are pretty damn new.

 

[mark056]

amazing how many people dont get the joke "is NES anti cop" reference.

How new are some of you guys?

It's a question worth commenting on from time to time. Whether meant to be sarcastic or not, that point is moot because I took it to be more of a rhetorical question.

BTW I am a member of the Class of 2005 (the founding year of NES). One thing I have noticed over the years is that when we started out, there were a lot of people who supported the police 100 percent. I don't think you could find a more pro-police forum on the internet (except for cop sites). Anything that has been done to change that feeling has been done on the part of the law enforcement community, not by members of NES.

Mark L.

 

[Dench]

If the police keep acting like super commandos then I think they will alienate all the non-sheep left in America.

 

[MichaelJR]

He didn't shoot and the safety was on. These guys are completely inept. Prison should be in their future.

Prison? Hell, they will all get promotions and increased detail pay....

Know how we have open carry bbq?
They will have a celebratory open carry dog shoot.

 

[NewGunGuy]

The same kind that can legally shoot and kill a retired firefighter on oxygen support

That is a little bit different there buddy, sad as it may seem the guy shows up to protect his family. Could he have shot the older man in the leg or something sure, but damn i bet he didn't have 60 slugs pulled out of his body now did he? The story that I read doesn't mention anything about him "WITH HIS OXYGEN TANK". Or maybe like this marine he had one but the valve was in the safe or closed position?

 

[joeendris]

Nope, anti-moron, which includes the cops in this story and the people who take up their flag to apologize for and defend them

Yup +1

 

[jar]

This is BS. He didn't shoot and the safety was on. These guys are completely inept. Prison should be in their future.

So you don't mind if I point a rifle at you as long as the safety is on? I'm not defending the overall situation, but this is a stupid argument.

 

[George D]

That is a little bit different there buddy, sad as it may seem the guy shows up to protect his family. Could he have shot the older man in the leg or something sure, but damn i bet he didn't have 60 slugs pulled out of his body now did he? The story that I read doesn't mention anything about him "WITH HIS OXYGEN TANK". Or maybe like this marine he had one but the valve was in the safe or closed position?

If someone tries breaking into my home with a metal bar, the only way he is getting shot in the leg is if it ricochets off something behind him. This is not an attempt at internet badassery, its the opposite. I'm not that skilled to place a precision round on a limb of a moving target, few people are. If I am ever placed in a position where the last resort is self defense using a firearm, its center of mass until the threat is over or I get a series of clicks.

 

[MassMark]

If someone tries breaking into my home with a metal bar, the only way he is getting shot in the leg is if it ricochets off something behind him.

Like his oxygen tank...

 

[StevieP]

Some in the law enforcement profession may think so, but IMHO I think most people that are on NES are pro constitution, pro civil rights for all, and believe that those enforcing the laws should never be above the law. It seems to many of us, especially after 9/11 and passage of the Patriot Act, that the police have acted in a more egregious manner towards the rest of us. Many of us who have always supported the police and law and order unconditionally in the past (and there are many I think who can make that claim on this forum) have become disturbed over the actions of many police departments in recent years.

I think it is important to recognize that many times the police face difficult tasks in the execution of their duties, face danger and may not make it home after their shift is over. I also believe that the police have become increasingly a class in society where entitlement comes before duty. Interestingly enough when I have shared this observation with older, senior officers, they agree.

I think overall, that lawful and responsible gun owners are tired of being dumped on and vilified and being viewed as threat by the police, whether in Arizona, Massachusetts or points in between. This may be perception, but perception is reality.

These are entirely my views and do not reflect anyone else's or the management of NES.

Mark L.

Consider them mine, too. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Kevlar]

...Could he have shot the older man in the leg or something sure...

Ah, the ubiquitous and fallacious "shoot to wound" argument.

If someone tries breaking into my home with a metal bar, the only way he is getting shot in the leg is if it ricochets off something behind him. This is not an attempt at internet badassery, its the opposite. I'm not that skilled to place a precision round on a limb of a moving target, few people are. If I am ever placed in a position where the last resort is self defense using a firearm, its center of mass until the threat is over or I get a series of clicks.

+1

Like his oxygen tank...

 

[mark056]

That is a little bit different there buddy, sad as it may seem the guy shows up to protect his family. Could he have shot the older man in the leg or something sure, but damn i bet he didn't have 60 slugs pulled out of his body now did he? The story that I read doesn't mention anything about him "WITH HIS OXYGEN TANK". Or maybe like this marine he had one but the valve was in the safe or closed position?

Since you are a "new gun guy" rather than be dismissive, and chide you for "not knowing"...the theory of interpersonal defense always is such that one uses one's firearm "in the gravest extreme" to neutralize the threat presented. The best way to do that is to discharge the firearm center of mass of one's target. The goal is to never shoot to wound, but shoot to incapacitate. A person who is shot in the extremities frequently still has the ability to carry on with the fight. Your job is to end the fight. Also too, in the heat of interpersonal combat, fine muscle control is going to go out the window, and trying to "shoot them in the hand, or arm or leg" to wound like in the movies is pure fantasy.

So one never shoots to wound, one always shoots to neutralize or incapacitate. Conventional wisdom states that is usually a shot placed as close to center of mass of the torso, and most often two shot or a "double tap" (there are circumstances where that is not possible or practical and some today question the double tap) Many experts state that if the torso shots are ineffective, then aim for the head. In any event you keep firing at the target until the target is neutralized i.e. incapable of continuing to be a threat.

A firearm is deadly weapon and as such, one never shoots to wound. You are using it because you need to defend your life or the life of a loved one which is why you would not "shoot the older man in the leg." The officer responded exactly how he was trained, and you would be trained if you took a course in combat pistol technique.

Mark L.

 

[beaker]

Oh really? How do you know he pointed the rifle at them? HE was in his own living room. The shot him 60 times.

So you don't mind if I point a rifle at you as long as the safety is on? I'm not defending the overall situation, but this is a stupid argument.

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[xtry51]

So you don't mind if I point a rifle at you as long as the safety is on? I'm not defending the overall situation, but this is a stupid argument.

I think it's pretty clear to any gun owner that they completely made this fact up. There's no way he was waiting with the rifle aimed and never fired a shot, period.

This screams Ruby Ridge rehash. "They shot at us first, so we shot the dog"

 

[Kevlar]

I think it's pretty clear to any gun owner that they completely made this fact up. There's no way he was waiting with the rifle aimed and never fired a shot, period.

Huh?

...The day the search warrant was served, we reported to the media that Mr. Guerena fired at SWAT officers. This is what was understood at that time. After a more detailed investigation, we learned that he pointed his assault rifle at SWAT officers, however, the safety was on and he could not fire...

 

[xtry51]

Huh?

Its called lying dude. They're lying.

They realized forensics wouldn't support the "he shot first" scenario, so instead of completely reneging the story they just "corrected" it and told a slightly smaller lie to replace the initial whopper.

Unless they show video of him pointing a gun at them I will never believe a Marine would do such a thing and not open fire. He would be more than aware that pointing his rifle at officers would get himself shot at by the multiple officers. They may be called jarheads, but they actually aren't that stupid and tend to know a little about escalating force situations.

 

[GM-GUY]

Memorial Day Weekend - Friday - after 5pm - is when the 'report' will come out, same as the Philly deal.

 

[Blitz1]

Memorial Day Weekend - Friday - after 5pm - 2012 - is when the 'report' will come out, same as the Philly deal.

FIFY

 

[GML]

I have an idea for ending the war on drugs. Pack up the war and go home. Let adults choose what they want to put in their own bodies.

No one has time for your logical thinking, and all that fancy tactical equipment would just sit around collecting dust!!


On a serious note, RIP, fallen Marine.

 

[nhfoos]

Nope, anti-moron, which includes the cops in this story and the people who take up their flag to apologize for and defend them

+2

The war on personal liberty is a joke...

 

[n1oty]

Isn't that the same asshat sheriff who was flappin his big mouth after the Giffords shooting?

That's him.

 

[n1oty]

who ever gathered the intel needs to be put on trial not the cops.

just my two cents.

Really?? The Sheriff's Dept and the initial entry officers are ON THE RECORD as initially reporting that the suspect FIRED UPON THEM and they returned fire. A couple of days later, the Sheriff's own investigation reveals that the suspect's weapon was unfired and on "safe". What kind of SWAT team do they have in that area, keystone cops???

 

[MassMark]

What kind of SWAT team do they have in that area, keystone cops???

Yeah - only way, way less funny....

 

[dwarven1]

What kind of SWAT team do they have in that area, keystone cops???

Unfortunately, these clowns are far more heavily armed than the Keystone Kops.

 

[jarhead66]

I can't argue this needs to end, but correct me if I'm wrong - police are civilians.

That may be the case in New Hampshire but certainly not the norm.

If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. You have a National Police force in this country now that has a main objective of covering it's ass.
Things that should happen right away. Banish SWAT. No police should be able to dress in a military manner as in bloused boots. Or even boots for that matter. End all Federal funding for local police.
The only reason these thugs are still called police is because the constitution says the Army can't be used against the citizens. Although Douglas MacArthur did that very thing. They are Federally funded, Federally equipped, Federally trained and have been for a very long time.
How about when Janet Reno used tanks to kill over 40 children in Waco Texas under the guise of protecting them.
Some of the people here have mentioned Ruby Ridge. Read what really happened there. I don't think I've ever seen a more clear cut case of premeditated murder or revenge. The Federal Government was made to apologize in open court for falsifying and withholding information.
My older brother has mentioned here a few times that people who are under 60 years old really haven't experienced how far this country has fallen. I don't know if we can save or retrieve it. It may be too late.

Rest in peace and Semper Fi Marine.

 

[JoeS4]

I can't argue this needs to end, but correct me if I'm wrong - police are civilians.

Try telling *them* that.

 

[Kevlar]

SWAT Attorney: Guerena Part Of "Home Invasion Crew"...

The man shot and killed by Pima County SWAT officers was linked to a home-invasion crew, the attorney representing the officers said Thursday. The house was targeted as part of an investigation into home invasions and drug rip-offs. The Guerena house was among homes that "were identified as locations where these activities were being carried out from."

Attorney Michael Storie said authorities found rifles, handguns, body armor and a portion of a law-enforcement uniform inside the house where Jose Guerena was shot by officers serving a search warrant May 5.

>snip<

Christopher Scileppi, who is representing the Guerena family, said nothing seized from Guerena's home was illegal and that Storie's statements were unsupported by facts and meant to discredit Guerena's character. Scileppi did not comment on the details of the case. Scileppi said it took two weeks for "the fourth version of the story" and these details to emerge because "they needed to put a story out that is going to protect them."

"Bottom line is they've had two weeks to construct a story, circle the wagons," Scileppi said.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_a978c23a-a40f-5d0a-a203-76b88ac67e86.html

 

[n1oty]

Its called lying dude. They're lying.

They realized forensics wouldn't support the "he shot first" scenario, so instead of completely reneging the story they just "corrected" it and told a slightly smaller lie to replace the initial whopper.

Unless they show video of him pointing a gun at them I will never believe a Marine would do such a thing and not open fire. He would be more than aware that pointing his rifle at officers would get himself shot at by the multiple officers. They may be called jarheads, but they actually aren't that stupid and tend to know a little about escalating force situations.

This. If a Marine is aiming a weapon AT SOMEONE, the weapon is off-safe and bullets are flying.