AZ - Jose Guerena Shot 60 Times By SWAT Team

Is it really a cheap cop-out, or are the police simply observing their approriate place as part of the executive branch of government? Should the police then pick and choose the laws they wish to enforce?

It isn't a matter of picking and choosing laws, it's a matter of choosing to be part of an adversarial relationship with the citizenry.

And aren't they effectively supplanting their own wisdom for laws that, while they just may be unconstitutional in substance, were enacted in procedurally constitutional fashion by the legislature and interpreted by the courts?

See above.

If the community says via their elected represntives they want every person to wear a green shirt on Tuesdays or face a $500 fine, who is the beat cop to say "Thats unconstitutional, I'm not enforcing that"? After all, it's a law the community said they wanted, and if you really do indeed want police to protect and serve the community, seems to me that goes to enforcing the statutes YOUR represntives and government pass.

OUR. OUR representatives and government. The police are citizens no more or less than non-police.

Again, it's not whether to enforce them, it's whether to choose to be part of the system or not. And if you decide to be part of the system you can't buy in 100% and then say "I'm only doing my job and enforcing the laws passed by others."

Also, It seems to me in this instance, the police become even more dangerous because they then essentially override the courts as the constitutional arbiturs of all criminal laws. For example, I have good friends in the DEA, but if you ask me, federal drugs laws passed under the guise that they relate to commerce in some rational way is, well, a farce. Still, it's not up to the individual DEA agent to decide that for himself. Why? Because a DEA agent has no business second guessing the legislature and the courts, institutions that are, in theory, superior by nature in that they ARE the body politic--and as a public servant he is subodinate to them. He works for them. He is not the arbitur of the laws, nor should he act like one. To think that would be a good idea strikes me as counterintutive to the point that the police have become too powerful--wanting the police to decide what is constitutional and what is not would seem to me to be the ultimate power grab.

That's a very good point and I agree it could become dangerous but just as dangerous is your contention that courts and legislature are superior by nature. No one in this country, be they President or garbage man, should be superior to another. My rights as a United States citizens are not subservient to any other person, group or institution and my hackles raise when others treat me as such.

Gaining control of your representation is the answer, not blaming the guy who enforces the laws. Get control of your representatives and you get control of everything else--if there are no unconstitutional laws passed, there are none to enforce.

I agree and disagree. Control of our representation is crucial, but if you're the "point of the spear" of those representatives, you share in the blame.

Please don't construe this as criticism of you personally in any way, I certainly didn't mean it to be taken as such. I don't know you personally but you seem like a nice enough guy.

Another part of the problem is the militarization of our police. We've gone from Community Policing to a quasi-military type of law enforcement. And when you have any type of militaristic force, they need an enemy. Unfortunately, the rest of us have become just that.
 
Sad sad situation. Unbelievable [angry2]

I don't care if the guy had 1,000 rifles in his apartment, 2 dead bodies, 400 lbs of drugs, 6 illegal immigrants hiding in his fridge and 2 dogs, there is NO NEED for paratroopers to storm his house in the middle of the night and shoot him.

Have a car sit outside and wait till he goes to buy milk, or better yet goes to work since he has a job, and calmly arrest him, then search his home.

This is *&^%$# ridiculous [angry2]
 
And re: SWAT team members fired 71 times and hit Guerena 60 times, police said. If that's the truth, I might believe that because according to the story, he put himself at the end of a fatal funnel - he was standing at the end of a long hallway (don't know why a marine would put himself in that position.... but that's the story). So shooting into a fatal funnel will produce a pretty high hit ratio... hence the name.
 
And re: SWAT team members fired 71 times and hit Guerena 60 times, police said. If that's the truth, I might believe that because according to the story, he put himself at the end of a fatal funnel - he was standing at the end of a long hallway (don't know why a marine would put himself in that position.... but that's the story). So shooting into a fatal funnel will produce a pretty high hit ratio... hence the name.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, I haven't read the whole thread since it took off, but I think it's likely they were using automatic weapons. 71 shots? From how many guns total? What, were they all in a line? I can't imagine them being able to train more than 2-3 guns on him if they were all funneling through the doorway, and 71 well-aimed shots from 3 guns on semi auto is an awful lot of continuous and excessive trigger pulling. If the SWAT teams were firing full auto it would make more sense to me for the amount of rounds fired.

Just speculating.
 
Just speculating.

They keep changing their story but one quote said specifically semi-automatic fire for (a full) 7 seconds. That's plenty of time to empty a handgun, reload and continue firing. A few guys with AR's or MP5's could do it on semi auto easily without having to reload or even empty.
 
No-knock warrants need to stop. They are a death warrant to anyone who defends their home from invasion.

Sooner or later they are going to be the death warrant for a bunch of cops. It's just a matter of time and playing the odds. A no-knock warrant will be served on some ex-military hard core type with a bad attitude and Garand loaded up with still legal AP 30.06. He will live in an area like the guy described in the OP did - where gang bangers masquerade as cops. There will be a back story - he's getting harassed. The bangers will rat him out and set him for a SWAT raid hoping to get him taken out. The team will come in - and most or none will go out. We are not talking an impossibility here - we are talking about time and circumstance and mentality and skills all coming together at the right time and place. This doesn't even have to be on purpose - it could all just be happenstance.
 
Sooner or later they are going to be the death warrant for a bunch of cops. It's just a matter of time and playing the odds. A no-knock warrant will be served on some ex-military hard core type with a bad attitude and Garand loaded up with still legal AP 30.06. He will live in an area like the guy described in the OP did - where gang bangers masquerade as cops. There will be a back story - he's getting harassed. The bangers will rat him out and set him for a SWAT raid hoping to get him taken out. The team will come in - and most or none will go out. We are not talking an impossibility here - we are talking about time and circumstance and mentality and skills all coming together at the right time and place. This doesn't even have to be on purpose - it could all just be happenstance.

I think so also. Eventually something like this will happen with the wrong guy.
 
Sooner or later they are going to be the death warrant for a bunch of cops. It's just a matter of time and playing the odds. A no-knock warrant will be served on some ex-military hard core type with a bad attitude and Garand loaded up with still legal AP 30.06. He will live in an area like the guy described in the OP did - where gang bangers masquerade as cops. There will be a back story - he's getting harassed. The bangers will rat him out and set him for a SWAT raid hoping to get him taken out. The team will come in - and most or none will go out. We are not talking an impossibility here - we are talking about time and circumstance and mentality and skills all coming together at the right time and place. This doesn't even have to be on purpose - it could all just be happenstance.

http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/07/absolved-banner-connector.html ?
(If you don't get the reference, read to at least the middle of Absolved.)
 
Pinching my nose and jumping into the shark tank...

Yeah, this whole thing was FUBARed. If it can be shown there was the requisite amount of recklessness/negligence/malice on the part of the officers in killing an innocent citizen, you'll hear no qualms from me.

My only objection is the references to law enforcement as a collective, single entity that acts in monolitic fashion without exception. Seems to me if you believe in individual rights and the individual as being the supreme entity in this tangible world, referring to law enforcement without accounting for the individuals that compose it is ignorant and short-sighted. I love what I do and I always go to work with the attitude that I'm no better than anyone else. But if my simple choice of profession makes me a jackbooted thug by no other reason than because of these outrageous stories of those in the same profession who went off the reservation, then it appears to me you only favor the superiority of the individual when it's convienent for the topic at hand, i.e., when painting every cop with a broad brush makes it simpler for you to make your point because you then don't have to account for differences amongst the population you're discussing.

In short, I can't say I disagree with most of the of the posts, but I do disagree with the generalities with which they're applied.


Agreed.

But here is the problem: How is a "civilian" supposed to know which he or she is dealing with at any given time?

If I go buy a car from company A - and it's a piece of crap, I might give them another chance - but if that one is a piece of crap - it's unlikely they will get a third try.

When the 9/11 attacks went down - a lot of people saw the parties over in the Muslim world and thought "WTF?". When we NEVER saw any large scale protests from the Muslim world against terrorism I think a lot of people did the math in their head and came to the conclusion that "Muslims support terrorism". It's not a hard conclusion to reach.

And it's the same problem that "good" cops have: as the jackasses in your ranks take advantage of the myriad of laws our jackass politicians spew forth on a constant basis , and use their power to do stuff like the incident described in this thread - AND - if there is no pushback from "good" cops, that is just as obvious to average person as the abuse from the bad cops is - then YOU WILL LOSE.

You will be dumped in with the jackasses.

I'm sure there were redcoats who sympathized with the plight of the colonists - being that redcoats were often impressed into service and were pulled from the "lower ranks" of English society.

It didn't matter - they wore the uniform - so they got shot.

Brother fought against and shot brother during the American Civil War.

Being "good" is not going to matter to most people when and if this situation finally goes full retard. They are going to be looking for blood.

All of this is why the "good" cops - who are in a better place to stop this crap than most - need to do something.
 
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Sooner or later they are going to be the death warrant for a bunch of cops. It's just a matter of time and playing the odds. A no-knock warrant will be served on some ex-military hard core type with a bad attitude and Garand loaded up with still legal AP 30.06. He will live in an area like the guy described in the OP did - where gang bangers masquerade as cops. There will be a back story - he's getting harassed. The bangers will rat him out and set him for a SWAT raid hoping to get him taken out. The team will come in - and most or none will go out. We are not talking an impossibility here - we are talking about time and circumstance and mentality and skills all coming together at the right time and place. This doesn't even have to be on purpose - it could all just be happenstance.

And when it does, the cops and the politicians will use this episode as a vehicle to ban as many if not all gun ownership. The kneejerk reaction will be one never before seen in this country, especially if we continue on this path of political lunacy were on now.
 
He just woke up after a couple of hours sleep, coming out of the bedroom after his wife woke him up saying guys with guns are outside and looking in the window. Kinda hard not to be at the end of the hallway when the storm troopers broke the door down. Apparently these guys were geared up and something was going to die before they went home, if the victim had a dog they may have shot it and been happy...


And re: SWAT team members fired 71 times and hit Guerena 60 times, police said. If that's the truth, I might believe that because according to the story, he put himself at the end of a fatal funnel - he was standing at the end of a long hallway (don't know why a marine would put himself in that position.... but that's the story). So shooting into a fatal funnel will produce a pretty high hit ratio... hence the name.
 
They keep changing their story but one quote said specifically semi-automatic fire for (a full) 7 seconds. That's plenty of time to empty a handgun, reload and continue firing. A few guys with AR's or MP5's could do it on semi auto easily without having to reload or even empty.

Did any of the articles mention what kind of guns they were using? I assumed SWAT, so I assumed MP5's or M4's. What about distance from target?
 
Agreed.

But here is the problem: How is a "civilian" supposed to know which he or she is dealing with at any given time?

If I go buy a car from company A - and it's a piece of crap, I might give them another chance - but if that one is a piece of crap - it's unlikely they will get a third try.

When the 9/11 attacks went down - a lot of people saw the parties over in the Muslim world and thought "WTF?". When we NEVER saw any large scale protests from the Muslim world against terrorism I think a lot of people did the math in their head and came to the conclusion that "Muslims support terrorism". It's not a hard conclusion to reach.

And it's the same problem that "good" cops have: as the jackasses in your ranks take advantage of the myriad of laws our jackass politicians spew forth on a constant basis , and use their power to do stuff like the incident described in this thread - AND - if there is no pushback from "good" cops, that is just as obvious to average person as the abuse from the bad cops is - then YOU WILL LOSE.

You will be dumped in with the jackasses.

I'm sure there were redcoats who sympathized with the plight of the colonists - being that redcoats were often impressed into service and were pulled from the "lower ranks" of English society.

It didn't matter - they wore the uniform - so they got shot.

Brother fought against and shot brother during the American Civil War.

Being "good" is not going to matter to most people when and if this situation finally goes full retard. They are going to be looking for blood.

All of this is why the "good" cops - who are in a better place to stop this crap than most - need to do something.

+1. I could not have stated the case any better. The good cops are at a crossroads now and have to decide which side they are on. Standing idly by and saying nothing does not cut it.
 
There are cultural changes within the law enforcement community. The manner in which both the law enforcement community and the non-law enforcement community view themselves and each other has changed, IMO, in the last twenty years and has accelerated since 9/11.

Part of the problem is exacerbated by the fact that at least in the northeast and elsewhere in this country, a majority of LEOs (esp in large urban departments) come from just several ethnic groups, nepotism seems is a way of life, with so many children following their father or mother's footsteps by becoming police officers. I realize that there are both historical and cultural reasons for this which are way beyond the scope of this forum with regard to any serious discussion. What we have created, is in effect, a police caste or class that perpetuates itself generation after generation. One does not bite the hand that feeds it, so to speak. On the face of it there would appear to be several good arguments that refute that. One being that affirmative action programs have dramatically changed the face of law enforcement and law enforcement draws many minorities and females into the profession. There is no denying that there is some truth to that, but it could also be argued, I think, that the majority of LEOs are still male and, have relatives on the Job and are from several ethnic groups (at least in this neck of the woods). In the applicant process, which on paper tries to create a level playing field, there are ways (primarily the interview and background check) to ensure that only "pre-selected" candidates" make the cut. What about affirmative action, you say? Well, a certain number of those candidates are going to be admitted because, not to do so would bring upon the displeasure of the government that supports the police. This is just one part of the issue. We have today, a police class in society. Nepotism regardless of geographical locale seems to be the order of day even when ethnicity is not a factor (which it isn't in some parts of the country). This police class views itself as being above and not from the citizens that it is sworn to protect and serve.

From the other side of the street, so to speak, the police are increasingly being tasked with enforcing laws and policies that are beyond the scope of their traditional roles, and are further hampered by a legal system that is more of a "game" that maintains the fiction of seeking truth and punishing only the guilty. Too often the police have become the front line mental health workers in this country since the 1970's when the powers to be decided that most of the mentally ill should not be institutionalized and were dumped on the streets. The police are increasingly becoming the school disciplinarians because administrators cannot or do not know how to execute this, and seem at times to be totally lacking common sense. Then, there is the War on Drugs, which never ends and for which victory will never come. Drug use, IMO is a social problem, a health issue which IMHO should be addressed outside of the criminal justice system. I favor the legalization of most drugs, but that it unlikely to happen simply because too many people make too much money off of them, and that money gets filtered many times removed into the coffers of the rich and powerful.

Back in the 1970's an LAPD Sergeant, Joseph Wambaugh, wrote a novel entitled "The New Centurions" where he outlined a lot of things that have come to pass because of the changes in society. His title referred to the Roman Soldiers who presided over the decline of the Roman Empire, and the police like those Roman soldiers found themselves in the middle between a society that was increasingly alienated towards them as social norms broke down, and a government became increasingly venal , corrupt and inefficient with the police in the middle.

I believe that a lot of egregious police behavior today is focused on people who would not have even come on a police officer's radar screen at one time. These people are easy targets and I think sometimes that the police overreact towards them as a way of venting their frustration. Overreaction becomes a form of venting. They do it because they can.
There is another dynamic in this too, as I think many police officers must deal with incompetent leadership. Many police administrators gain their rank because of their ability to take a written test, not because of their leadership abilities. Those who are in high rank and are in appointed positions, are in many cases, politicians in uniform and are going to direct and administer policies that the politicians over them want. All too often the cop that tries to do the right thing becomes a victim in his or her own right.

This post is already too long and I'll give you a rep point if you can finish reading it [grin]...but IMHO it underscores and barely scratches the surface of a large and I think increasingly complex social issue for which, sadly, I see no resolution in sight.

Perception is truth and unfortunately there are misconceptions on both sides: citizen and sworn, but there is also veritas or real truth on both sides as well. Trying to separate the real truth from the perceived truth is the challenge and one that I do not think either side will be able to do. Sadly, I believe that the rift will continue and only get worse, and for those that would like to see the United States return to the world of 1793, that's not going to happen either. Remember this though: when only the police have guns, it's a police state.

Mark L.

+1

Awesome post.

RE: the part I highlighted in red, I remember reading a study a while back where they did experiments on why some people get abused and bullied and tortured. In my recollection basically what the study found was that when people were deferential to bullies or authority figures who were abusing them - the abuse increased. The bully or authority figure interpreted the deference as "go signal" to do even worse things.

My take: there is a circle of abuse going on here. We have segments of our society that WANT the government to go around telling people what to do, we have legislators more than willing to do it because it gives them something to do and because it puts more power in govt. hands, we have an enforcement arm that in at least some segments WANTS that increased power (the SWAT teams and mgmt) because it gives them more power and funding and TOYS - and we have a population that has been told to put up with this crap.

The cycle has to be broken somewhere. That can be by voting out lousy legislators and changing laws - but it could also come making the people who demand this stuff pay a social cost for their advocacy of tyranny, it could come from "good" cops making it VERY clear that the SWAT mentality has no proper place in an organization devoted to "keeping the peace" , and it might come from people developing a spine and just simply refusing to back down any more (interpret that however you want).

This could stop the "easy" way - or it could stop the "hard" way - but sooner or later it's going to stop.
 
Is it really a cheap cop-out, or are the police simply observing their approriate place as part of the executive branch of government? Should the police then pick and choose the laws they wish to enforce? And aren't they effectively supplanting their own wisdom for laws that, while they just may be unconstitutional in substance, were enacted in procedurally constitutional fashion by the legislature and interpreted by the courts?

If the community says via their elected represntives they want every person to wear a green shirt on Tuesdays or face a $500 fine, who is the beat cop to say "Thats unconstitutional, I'm not enforcing that"? After all, it's a law the community said they wanted, and if you really do indeed want police to protect and serve the community, seems to me that goes to enforcing the statutes YOUR represntives and government pass.

Also, It seems to me in this instance, the police become even more dangerous because they then essentially override the courts as the constitutional arbiturs of all criminal laws. For example, I have good friends in the DEA, but if you ask me, federal drugs laws passed under the guise that they relate to commerce in some rational way is, well, a farce. Still, it's not up to the individual DEA agent to decide that for himself. Why? Because a DEA agent has no business second guessing the legislature and the courts, institutions that are, in theory, superior by nature in that they ARE the body politic--and as a public servant he is subodinate to them. He works for them. He is not the arbitur of the laws, nor should he act like one. To think that would be a good idea strikes me as counterintutive to the point that the police have become too powerful--wanting the police to decide what is constitutional and what is not would seem to me to be the ultimate power grab.

Gaining control of your representation is the answer, not blaming the guy who enforces the laws. Get control of your representatives and you get control of everything else--if there are no unconstitutional laws passed, there are none to enforce.

I think up to a point you are correct. But carried to an extreme - trying to use the excuse of " I was just following orders" is a cop out (so to speak).

Police are citizens too - and they ARE supposed to obey and defend the Constitution (IMHO).

Saying that you were just "following orders" has been proven at certain points in the past to not be a defense at trial. There's a 91 year old former prison camp guard who just got 5 years.

Past a certain point "I was just following the law" - becomes an excuse IMHO.
 
"Is it really a cheap cop-out, or are the police simply observing their approriate place as part of the executive branch of government?"

Executive branch of government? IMHO they fall under the Judicial branch of government. Maybe that's the problem. Executive? Not a chance!!
 
And now the LE story starts to change... interesting isn't it? Now all the sudden they're finding all this equipment that they can use to make him look like a bad guy, none of which is illegal
Attorney Michael Storie said authorities found rifles, handguns, body armor and a portion of a law-enforcement uniform inside the house where Jose Guerena was shot by officers serving a search warrant May 5.

"Everything they think they're going to find in there they find," Storie said in a news conference called a day after the Sheriff's Department complained that media reports on the incident spread misinformation and encouraged speculation about events surrounding the shooting. The Sheriff's Department said Wednesday that it would provide no details about the case to the public until the investigation is complete.

They also can't get their story right on where he was when they shot him.
When asked why SWAT members did not rush in to render medical aid to Guerena, Storie said officers on scene "have to assume that there are other people with guns and that there are other people with body armor inside the residence."

He said officers could not conclude Guerena was incapacitated because he fell into a room after he was shot and officers could not see him from the doorway.

The families lawyer says otherwise
Based on a photograph of a large bloodstain inside the home, Scileppi said, Guerena fell down in clear view of the front door and officers could see him.

Also this little tidbit.
No arrests have been made from any of the other homes where SWAT served search warrants, Storie said.

The LEOs even contradict themselves here So which was it, were they inside the house or not?? I'm amazed these jackasses didn't shoot eachother.
After that, five SWAT members broke in the front door and saw Guerena holding a rifle at the end of a long hallway.

The other officers at the front door of the house also fired, striking Guerena.

All five SWAT members were shooting from just outside the home and never entered the house, Storie said.

The lawyer pretty much says it all here
Scileppi said it took two weeks for "the fourth version of the story" and these details to emerge because "they needed to put a story out that is going to protect them."

"Bottom line is they've had two weeks to construct a story, circle the wagons," Scileppi said.

Full story
 
Let's say, as a private citizen, a bad guy enters my home. I unload on him firing 70+ rounds and make 60+ hits. They'd lock you up and throw away the key.

So, the police encounter a guy with a weapon, does that entitle them to unload on him or should there be some thought for neutralizing the threat with the least amount of force required? I'm thinking the former is the best route, especially if this is a residential neighborhood, and doubt it really took 60 hits to neutralize this guy as a threat.
 
Sad sad situation. Unbelievable [angry2]

I don't care if the guy had 1,000 rifles in his apartment, 2 dead bodies, 400 lbs of drugs, 6 illegal immigrants hiding in his fridge and 2 dogs, there is NO NEED for paratroopers to storm his house in the middle of the night and shoot him.

Have a car sit outside and wait till he goes to buy milk, or better yet goes to work since he has a job, and calmly arrest him, then search his home.

This is *&^%$# ridiculous [angry2]

Just like they did in Waco.... never mind.
 
"Is it really a cheap cop-out, or are the police simply observing their approriate place as part of the executive branch of government?"

Executive branch of government? IMHO they fall under the Judicial branch of government. Maybe that's the problem. Executive? Not a chance!!
How do you explain that opinion?

With the notable exception of the US Marshall Service which is part of the federal judiciary, almost all federal law enforcement with the previous excpetion fall under the purview of a cabinet secretary.

On the state level, COP's police are nearly universally appointed by the excutive who retains a degree of command over the force. Local COP's are appointed by selectmen. The Boston Police Commissioner is appointed by the mayor and maintains veto power on decisions (remeber the summer '09 patrol rifle issue?). The Colonel of MSP serves at the pleasure of the governor.

I fail to see how any of them can be considered in any manner whatsoever as part of the judiciary. But if I'm missing something in your logic (sarcasm?), please let me know.
 
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O.K. let me spell it out. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, they should not be part of the executive branch of the government. There in lies the problem. I guess I should have said Should. Sorry about that.
When the police answer to politicians, justice goes out the window.
 
More here.

The story is bizarre. Particularly interesting is the "counter-surveillance" claim offered up by the lawyer representing SWAT. He says that an undercover car went by the house as part of their investigation leading up to the raid. Somebody from the house, he claims, jumped into a car and followed. Shortly thereafter, someone ran the undercover car's plate. Doesn't that tell us that there is a problem within the police force? It's not like just anyone can run a plate.

Later, when SWAT hits the house, they claim that Guerena said, "I've got something for you; I've got something for you guys" -- all while holding an AR-15, yet not shooting. This isn't some bad TV movie. Who, in real life, takes the time to offer up a one-liner before engaging in a gunfight?

I'm willing to believe (not that we have proof) that the SWAT guys did what they had to do GIVEN that they broke into the house. What I don't believe is that SWAT's home invasion was necessary (in order to stop a home invasion ring -- unbelievable).

The story linked above says that Guerena was sleeping after returning from a night shift at work. So why not just grab him on his way home? I think part of the reason is that the warrant, according to the story, was issued on the house and not any particular inhabitants -- whatever that means.
 
It seems to me that someone should look into the judge that signed the warrants.

Did the police affidavit say, "We think the criminal home invaders come from the 1/4 mile area at the end of Maple St., we'd like search warrants for all the houses down there."

That's a general warrant (and fishing trip), not a specific warrant -- and illegal.

They claim to have waited 45 seconds before crashing the door. I don't believe it, unless they can prove they had a guy with a watch timing it. I'd guess about 6 seconds at most from a possible knock.

Btw, there are plenty of times of day that I can't get to the door in 45 seconds.
 
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