Attorney sues Portsmouth police over gun license denial! We need to follow this case

[Kevin_NH]

Rarely attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity.

A Seacoast lawyer is firing back at the Portsmouth Police Department for its failure to renew his license to carry a concealed weapon, based on the fact his three references didn't return police calls for verification.

I've been waiting for a test case on "references were unreachable"; almost volunteered to be one myself the first week I moved here.

When I applied for my resident permit in NH, I didn't list phone numbers for my 3 references; 2 were NH residents with unlisted phone numbers, and the police were able to obtain their numbers and call my references (friends, and I happened to be in the room when the cops called). My third reference was out of state, and the police were not so successful in getting his phone number, after 10 days the officer called and complained to me; the only number they could find went to a fax machine, and could I provide another number, or a different reference?

​Once thing I find interesting is on the form itself there is no place for your references phone numbers. I just looked at the form I sent in and it is only name and mailing address. So unless they are looking up peoples phone numbers to actually call them I am not sure how they would get them unless people put them on there somewhere.

There are public (and other) sources to get phone numbers, but in my case the cops failed miserably in finding a valid phone number for my third, out of state, reference. They found a fax number, but didn't think of, I dunno, actually sending a fax? just complained to me instead.

Some NH town websites provide the official form and also strongly recommend providing addresses and phone numbers for your references. I've heard of towns contacting references by mail with a form to fill out, this was mentioned in an earlier NES thread as well. For example, Mont Vernon politely asks for phone numbers, while Newfields is skirting non-compliance with state law.

We could make a list, call them "Green Towns" and "Brown" towns.

I live in Portsmouth and have not had a problem. Portsmouth sends a letter to the references asking; never heard of a phone call. I was just wondering if the applicant in this case is a 2nd amendment supporter or if this is a set up and gun grabbers trying to establish a bad suitability precedent via the courts in NH? Anyone know him?

I doubt that this is an attempt by anti gunners to get a "bad" precedent set. This drama is making the Chief look petty and dumb and, Portsmouth has zero chance of winning. If anything, this is an opportunity to clarify that asking for extra info is not allowed, and denial due to lack of reply from references is unsupportable.

Was Portsmouth one of the towns that was providing a modified/supplemental form and got their wrist slapped by the state a few years back?

DiLando said Portsmouth police contact people with incomplete applications, tell them the forms are incomplete and extend offers to give them more time to respond.

That's BS -- the form has no space for phone numbers, so omitting them is not incompleteness.

Portsmouth Police Chief Stephen DuBois will lose this case, and will hopefully end up paying for it out of his own pocket. That's the way it works in New Hampshire -- Freedom isn't measured by whether there is an occasional moonbat or petty tyrant who tries to go to far, freedom is measured by how quickly and publicly their trial balloon gets shot down.

 

[Wrench75]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this shit started happening up there. That is why I moved south. It is disgusting to see the libtards getting traction in NH.

 

[Tyke]

Shall issue stat...COP needs to determine suitability...mind = blown.

 

[JuergenG]

That shit will very likely be stopped dead in its tracks by a Court. Only very few CLEO's try a stunt like this and
those who do/did get lectured by the judges.
However, Freedom loving NH residents must stay vigilant and fight fire with appropriate counter battery.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this shit started happening up there. That is why I moved south. It is disgusting to see the libtards getting traction in NH.

This is not new, and this is not "getting traction" until a Chief actually tries this and gets away with it. Every few years something like this comes up, and each time the CoP gets his ass handed to him by a judge, and firearms rights in New Hampshire are that much stronger for having been tested.

Portsmouth Police Chief Stephen DuBois will lose this case, and will hopefully end up paying for it out of his own pocket. That's the way it works in New Hampshire -- Freedom isn't measured by whether there is an occasional moonbat or petty tyrant who tries to go to far, freedom is measured by how quickly and publicly their trial balloon gets shot down.

 

[slap shot]

Hmmm, I guess they need to change their motto. Live "somewhat restrained" or die.

 

[soloman02]

I knew it was only a matter of time before this shit started happening up there. That is why I moved south. It is disgusting to see the libtards getting traction in NH.

If you think CoPs don't pull BS down south I've got a bridge and oceanfront property in Wyoming to sell you....

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Except thats not anywhere near my experience. I a NESr and a friend were OCing at starbucks during one of the "appreciation days." We met a cop who just happened to come in when we did who was cool. We saw two other Portsmouth cops come over when they were harassing someone with an open container (who wasn't bothering anyone I might add). Not only were the cops nice, they were supportive of us OCing and one of em even had an FFL! As to the references thing, there has to be more to the story. The CoP must hate Pratt or something because my references have never been contacted by Lee or for renewal in Barrington. My roommate just got his a couple weeks back, the Lee police not only didn't check references (I was a reference), they issued it in three days. A friend who got his CCL this year in Manchester didn't have references checked either, AND he even had a criminal record!!!!!!! (minor misdemeanors) The CoP has no actual legal basis anyway since the law specifically directs the state police to create the form.

I'm the other NES'er in the above story. How Soloman02 describes it, is how it went down in Portsmouth.
Additionally, my references weren't checked by the CoP in my town. I know this as fact as my references are good friends and fellow members of this forum.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Hmmm, I guess they need to change their motto. Live "somewhat restrained" or die.

Please elaborate.

Tell me how NH can preemptively restrain the CoP from trying to abuse the process of P&R issuance? To be free, we have to wait for the CoP to break the law, and then let the judge restrain him from being an idiot, and make sure the chief pays the price (literally) for trying to violate the spirit and letter of the RSA.

 

[Bonesinium]

NH is shall issue and this was a renewal? Almost seems illogical to provide 3 references on a renewal in a shall issue. I don't believe that "references didn't return calls" is one of the valid reasons for denying a shall issue.

It isn't, and this lawsuit is exactly because of that.

The attorney should have been issued a license but if you look at the above quote his court case may not be as successful as he thinks. Here's my guess; Police chief doesn't issue license in the alloted period of time. Attorney gets annoyed and starts pressing chief. Chief claims he's waiting to hear back from references. Attorney tells Chief that by statute he has to provide a yes or no in the specified time frame. Chief says if I have to do it now it will be a 'no'. Lawyer says go ahead deny me and I'll take you to court.

ETA Judge is going to be annoyed that he even has to deal with this.

I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct. It may have gone down something like that. As we know, the chief is wrong.

Shall issue stat...COP needs to determine suitability...mind = blown.

Not quite accurate (though that is exactly what happened, illegally). It is more that it is shall issue and the cop needs to determine UNsuitability to deny. The opposite isn't suppose to be true, but that is exactly what he did any way.

159:6 License to Carry. –
" shall issue a license to such applicant authorizing the applicant to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in this state for not less than 4 years from the date of issue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property or has any proper purpose, and that the applicant is a suitable person to be licensed. Hunting, target shooting, or self-defense shall be considered a proper purpose."

Nowhere does it say that the police's own inability to determine that someone could be 'unsuitable' is a reason for denial. The police denied him solely because THEY weren't competent enough to do police work and figure out if he wasn't suitable. Not only does that go beyond what they are suppose to do, the fact they are claiming they are suppose to do it, failed, and that is a reason for denial is just absurd and illegal on it's face.

Not to mention that the RSA does not define 'suitable person to be licensed', which could be argued as unconstitutionally vague. However I'd say that it probably means that the person is not prohibited by other state and federal law, and the courts would probably agree.

Hmmm, I guess they need to change their motto. Live "somewhat restrained" or die.

It hasn't been 'live free or die' for quite some time, sadly.

 

[snd1t]

​Could be the state handles them a bit different.

Once thing I find interesting is on the form itself there is no place for your references phone numbers. I just looked at the form I sent in and it is only name and mailing address. So unless they are looking up peoples phone numbers to actually call them I am not sure how they would get them unless people put them on there somewhere.

This is the point that folks should take notice of

While the form sucks its in your interest to provide only the info required and not one bit more.

There's no place for a phone number so don't volunteer one.

They have 14 days to make a determination, if they don't have reason NOT to issue then they are REQUIRED to issue it to the requestor.

I hope the Chief gets the snot sued out of him

We should ALL consider donating to this effort to assist in making an example of him by tying him up in court for the rest of his life

 

[slap shot]

Please elaborate.

Tell me how NH can preemptively restrain the CoP from trying to abuse the process of P&R issuance? To be free, we have to wait for the CoP to break the law, and then let the judge restrain him from being an idiot, and make sure the chief pays the price (literally) for trying to violate the spirit and letter of the RSA.

I was being a wise-ass, but if you think you're truly free, while the popo changes the process from shall issue to may issue, then more power to you.

If it goes as planned , then i'll retract my statement forthwith. hope i have to

- - - Updated - - -

It hasn't been 'live free or die' for quite some time, sadly.

Hopefully this lawsuit gets things back a little closer.

 

[snd1t]

I think we all know that the poor/non-specific language in the RSA combined with delegation of the creation of the application for to the State Police (iirc) is the root problem.

What needs to happen is for the legislature to revisit this and eliminate the suitability language in favor of something like "not prohibited by law"

Furthermore the RSA needs to include the specifics of the application instead of delegating to a squishy political appointee in the state police controlled largely by the Executive.......

Ultimately the problem in this RSA is that same one that the Supreme Court was faced recently in determining what was meant by a "loaded gun"........

Words have meanings and failure to write legislation in a manner that is specific enough to avoid being abused by the police and political appointees is the problem.

 

[Bonesinium]

I think we all know that the poor/non-specific language in the RSA combined with delegation of the creation of the application for to the State Police (iirc) is the root problem.

What needs to happen is for the legislature to revisit this and eliminate the suitability language in favor of something like "not prohibited by law"

Furthermore the RSA needs to include the specifics of the application instead of delegating to a squishy political appointee in the state police controlled largely by the Executive.......

Ultimately the problem in this RSA is that same one that the Supreme Court was faced recently in determining what was meant by a "loaded gun"........

Words have meanings and failure to write legislation in a manner that is specific enough to avoid being abused by the police and political appointees is the problem.

I agree, except not entirely with the underlined. While that certainly is an issue, the real problem is there is no accountability for those that enforce laws. Some things are specific. They are ignored, and there are no repercussions nor any recourse, usually. This is nation wide.

 

[swampy]

References on a new license is bad enough but references for a renewal is absurd!

 

[Kevin_NH]

The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance (Not TJ)

I agree, except not entirely with the underlined. While that certainly is an issue, the real problem is there is no accountability for those that enforce laws. Some things are specific. They are ignored, and there are no repercussions nor any recourse, usually. This is nation wide.

Looking for accountability on Tuesday, when Judge Stephen Morrison should order Stephen DuBois to not only issue the P&R, but also to personally pay Randall Pratt's legal costs.

I was being a wise-ass, but if you think you're truly free, while the popo changes the process from shall issue to may issue, then more power to you. If it goes as planned , then i'll retract my statement forthwith. hope i have to

There's always going to be petty tyrants out there who get in a position of power and try to play games like what Portsmouth CoP Stephen DuBois is doing here. That Stephen DuBois tried to change the process doesn't make us less free, as long as he fails, same as the other police chief's who have tried to mess with the process in the past.

​

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active.
The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." - John Philpot Curran, 1790​

 

[joeendris]

There's always going to be petty tyrants out there who get in a position of power and try to play games like what Portsmouth CoP Stephen DuBois is doing here. That Stephen DuBois tried to change the process doesn't make us less free, as long as he fails, same as the other police chief's who have tried to mess with the process in the past.

The problem is that the People have to be dragged thru the mud and maybe have the up front money to pay for a lawyer to get justice. That's how the thugs with power force us to lick their feet. They have "city lawyers", paid for by the People, to protect them, while we have to provide our own. The accountability and punishment metted out to those who cause these problems isn't there....and it should be.

Viscious punishments for crooks and thugs who attempt to destroy rights and lives. Nothing less will do.

It's what they do to us, regularly...

 

[Billsail]

If you want a hassle-free NH pistol & revolver license...move to MA.

 

[ProGun]

If you want a hassle-free NH pistol & revolver license...move to MA.

Seriously, NH state police didn't call any of my references for my non-res.

 

[Smokewagon]

Read my post above, the CoP has no legal basis. The only reason for the denial has to be for a different reason, like him hating the applicant.

I know he has no legal basis. Since when has that ever stopped a cop from being a douche? Just sad to see it in NH that's all.

 

[Bt74]

Have had CCs issued by two NH towns over the years, never have any of my references been contacted. Last month Myself and my wife dropped off the forms on a Friday evening, mine had lapsed a year, and it was my wife's initial application. Got a call Tuesday morning at 8am to come by and pick them up. Essentially 1 business day.

 

[HKdrummer]

I don't mean to laugh at this, but there is so much irony here considering i've been lambasted over saying that it is creeping north, and being told repeatedly "you'r an ignorant serf stay in MA you clearly have no idea what you're talking about"

This should be a slam dunk for the guy and I really hope that he crushes this in court. My only question is, is there any way to have the "denial" mark on his record, so as to not cause any speedbumps for him down the road?

 

[mac1911]

I just did my non resident renewal. Is the application different for resident. I did not giive phone numbers of my references just address.? I hope he wns.

 

[soloman02]

I don't mean to laugh at this, but there is so much irony here considering i've been lambasted over saying that it is creeping north, and being told repeatedly "you'r an ignorant serf stay in MA you clearly have no idea what you're talking about"

This should be a slam dunk for the guy and I really hope that he crushes this in court. My only question is, is there any way to have the "denial" mark on his record, so as to not cause any speedbumps for him down the road?

Unlike Mass, in NH we can actually sue town and state officials in state court and win.

Further, I don't see you Mass residents suing over much of anything that goes on in that state....

 

[Kevin_NH]

When we allow 90 days for a response, or start worrying about "red" towns, no sooner

I don't mean to laugh at this, but there is so much irony here considering i've been lambasted over saying that it is creeping north, and being told repeatedly "you'r an ignorant serf stay in MA you clearly have no idea what you're talking about"

This should be a slam dunk for the guy and I really hope that he crushes this in court. My only question is, is there any way to have the "denial" mark on his record, so as to not cause any speedbumps for him down the road?

That's a good question, when he wins on appeal, does he still have a denial on his record?

Oh, and you're an ignorant serf stay in MA you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

At least wait until after Tuesday's hearing, THEN you can say "it is creeping north" without people replying you're an ignorant serf stay in MA you clearly have no idea what you're talking aboutt

 

[soloman02]

That's a good question, when he wins on appeal, does he still have a denial on his record?

Oh, and you're an ignorant serf stay in MA you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

At least wait until after Tuesday's hearing, THEN you can say "it is creeping north" without people replying you're an ignorant serf stay in MA you clearly have no idea what you're talking aboutt

If the court tells the CoP to issue the license then it is as if the denial never happened and he does not have to answer yes on any question asking if he was denied.

 

[HKdrummer]

Unlike Mass, in NH we can actually sue town and state officials in state court and win.

Further, I don't see you Mass residents suing over much of anything that goes on in that state....

whatever helps you sleep at night, all I'm getting at, is that it is happening I'm not saying I'm glad it is, I've never wished for it to happen, I'm just basically saying told ya so. I'm glad this guy is pushing back, but it troubles me even more that he has to. The whole idea behind moving to a place like NH is that you don't have to put up with this crap.

 

[Mr_Irritating]

I read about a case challenging the references requirement going to the NH supreme court and the court told the plantiff to pound sand.

 

[Mikel131]

I read about a case challenging the references requirement going to the NH supreme court and the court told the plantiff to pound sand.

Link Please

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Unlike Mass, in NH we can actually sue town and state officials in state court and win.

Further, I don't see you Mass residents suing over much of anything that goes on in that state....

Really? Does Fletcher v. Haas ring a bell? What about Jarvis vs Village Vault? Or perhaps Grover vs. Mazzie plus a few others. What have I been writing all these Comm2A checks to attorneys for?

If that doesn't count for "suing over much of anything", I can assure you that those of you who donate to Comm2a will be pleased with some of our upcoming projects.