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Ammo Scalping Article with Kittery Trading Post Interview

Road_Clam said:
Sure feels good to reload, be totally independent , and not give 2 shits about panics and scumbag scalpers.
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Wait...so you make your own primers, mix your own powder, smelt the ore and cast our own bullets? If not, then you're no more independent than anyone else. Lots of primers around these days? If you say, "No, but I stocked up on millions of them, and tons of powder," that's no different than those of us sitting on large stockpiles of ammo laid in when it was cheap. Everyone has the same supply logistic problems. You have different scumbag scalpers, but that doesn't change anything.
 
ScottS said:
Wait...so you make your own primers, mix your own powder, smelt the ore and cast our own bullets? If not, then you're no more independent than anyone else. Lots of primers around these days? If you say, "No, but I stocked up on millions of them, and tons of powder," that's no different than those of us sitting on large stockpiles of ammo laid in when it was cheap. Everyone has the same supply logistic problems. You have different scumbag scalpers, but that doesn't change anything.
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Given the same $ sunk into ammo vs mats, the guy with the mats is going to make 30-50% more ammo than you, maybe more. If he (or you for that matter) can ride out the whole thing
on reserves, then there are no scalpers, you basically get to drive past them.

You don't have to reload to do what he is doing, but it will cost you more money to get the same level of insurance vs time that he has.
 
Tinkermatic said:
The term “Scalpers” works in some instances. People currently purchasing ammo with the sole intent to resell said ammo at an inflated price, add nothing to the supply chain.
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The correct term is Arbitrageur.

They eliminate ineffeciencies in the market and assure available supply. If they did not exist, ammo would be sucked up by people like most of us here. If there was an intense shortage and 9x19FMJ was priced at $170ish a case (what I used to pay) when available , we would probably (a) Check the current checking account balance and (b) ask the dealer how many cases we could buy. But, that would be assuming it was available - which would be far less available that it is today. People like CrackPot allow you to buy the ammo for $X rather than not buy it for $X/2 or whatever.

The arbs make sure the product trades at the traditional intersection of supply and demand, assuring that the consumer who places the highest personal value on the product gets it. It also keeps a lucky few from stocking up at below market prices preventing others from buying at market. Arbs are one of the reasons you can find ammo at $1/round rather than not find it at $.16 a round.
 
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drgrant said:
Given the same $ sunk into ammo vs mats, the guy with the mats is going to make 30-50% more ammo than you, maybe more. If he (or you for that matter) can ride out the whole thing
on reserves, then there are no scalpers, you basically get to drive past them.

You don't have to reload to do what he is doing, but it will cost you more money to get the same level of insurance vs time that he has.
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Only if you value your time at $0. Almost anything above that and the lines get pretty close together.
 
Another area this has happened is nitrile gloves. I usually get them from Harbor Freight and use a lot (I have a much loved, but elderly, dog). The price has gone from about $8/100 to $18/100 everywhere including Amazon, and the supply is scarce but available (they only had about a dozen XL boxes when I was there a couple of weeks ago).

Harbor Freight had a sign posted apologizing for the price and stating their margin (I assume as a percent, not absolute $$) has not changed and they will lower the price when their supplier does. It's basic - when supply goes down price goes up. The only question is who is going to get the increase in spread between purchase and sale price - manufacturer, importer, distributor, arb, etc.
 
andrew1220 said:
Yup.
Shit I can shoot 200-250 rounds of my 9mm reloads for what people are spending on 50 rounds of factory 9mm😮
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Right, but that's your reloading components bought a while ago compared to 9mm at today's prices. Apples and oranges. Hell, I can shoot 5:1 9mm based on the ammo I bought at $160/1K vs what I saw this weekend ($800/1K). As late as mid-July, you could find 9mm at ~$220/1K (and people were bitching), which is almost 4:1 vs today.
 
ScottS said:
Only if you value your time at $0. Almost anything above that and the lines get pretty close together.
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Time-Cost is a value funhouse that is going to depend on the person. So I won't pretend to even argue there. I just think the payoff on things like straight walled pistol is huge to the
point where in the long run you will make out. And when the workflow is set up, the time commitment isn't huge either. I mean I know guys with a house full of snotgobblers that still
figure out how to load up their 9mm, .45, whatever, as needed, and still have a life outside of that.

Now if someone told me something like "I don't load .223 or 5.56 bulk ammo because the time/value of it sucks" I would be apt to agree with them. The scalability and complexity of such an operation increases dramatically.
 
andrew1220 said:
Yup.
Shit I can shoot 200-250 rounds of my 9mm reloads for what people are spending on 50 rounds of factory 9mm😮
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Back when I had my 550 I basically used to just load up a TUB of 9mm (usually 124 gr CMJ loaded up with 4.2 grs of titegroup) which was about 400 rounds. I'd usually keep a tub in reserve too and a few boxes of 100 floating around just in case. I didn't even ponder availability, I literally would go to the range and shoot until I got tired. [laugh] There was no "ok, im out of ammo, I'm going home now" thing. That load was also cleaner than like 75% of the commercial ammo you could buy, too. I also had hot, normal, and weak .45 ACP loads for bowling pins which was nice. That was literally the only time I really liked having mouse farts... because a 780 fps .45 ACP WST mouse fart load will still push a clean pin off a table. Then when we did Winchendon I would do "normal then full retard" 900 fps loads when they would punish us with the shitty recycled pins that already had 5 pounds of lead in them and didn't roll.. [rofl]
 
drgrant said:
Time-Cost is a value funhouse that is going to depend on the person. So I won't pretend to even argue there. I just think the payoff on things like straight walled pistol is huge to the
point where in the long run you will make out. And when the workflow is set up, the time commitment isn't huge either. I mean I know guys with a house full of snotgobblers that still
figure out how to load up their 9mm, .45, whatever, as needed, and still have a life outside of that.

Now if someone told me something like "I don't load .223 or 5.56 bulk ammo because the time/value of it sucks" I would be apt to agree with them. The scalability and complexity of such an operation increases dramatically.
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This was pretty much my experience. I started off reloading just straight walled pistol for my competition shooting. It was well worth the time and effort with a progressive press. But I had ZERO interest in dealing with the PITA of reloading rifle when you could buy hoser .223 rounds at .25 cpr and match rounds at .35. Well...during the last panic when you couldn’t find any .223, I learned to love rifle reloading. Haven’t really looked back since! Both hoser rounds on the progressive and long range shells measured out by hand. I’ve come to enjoy the process (mostly).
 
Hey you- ammo and components hoarder / speculator: Yes, capitalism blah blah blah. You're still a POS. No guarantee it will happen, but assuming prices do eventually normalize I hope your ass gets burned with goods you can only sell at cost or below.

And for all you 'should have been smarter and bought ahead' dipshits: Yes I did stock up on a few years worth of components and/or ammo that I use regularly in matches. I won't restock until later 2021 and only another year ahead if prices are still retarded.
 
Road_Clam said:
Sure feels good to reload, be totally independent , and not give 2 shits about panics and scumbag scalpers.
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The problem is that the tards are gobbling up all the components too. I bet half or more of them will just sit on it.
 
Mountain said:
Hey you- ammo and components hoarder / speculator: Yes, capitalism blah blah blah. You're still a POS. No guarantee it will happen, but assuming prices do eventually normalize I hope your ass gets burned with goods you can only sell at cost or below.

And for all you 'should have been smarter and bought ahead' dipshits: Yes I did stock up on a few years worth of components and/or ammo that I use regularly in matches. I won't restock until later 2021 and only another year ahead if prices are still retarded.
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The problem with this is unless they're retarded and playing "small ball" they'll never get screwed because of sticky price. Ammo prices don't drop like a rock overnight. It's not like guns where the bottom of the market can fall out over a weekend.

You should be more angry at the people buying from speculators/flippers. Without them the shit prices wouldn't exist. During obamascares flippers didn't do so hot because people were far more recalcitrant.

Also outside of primers i would be hard pressed to believe "hoarding" of components. Demand is just stupid high and commercial reloaders hit the same suppliers we do, fundamentally.
 
Scalpers are a natural market response to prices being too low; they fill the gap between supply and demand. If prices are kept artificially low by price controls or whatever, then when a demand shock like this one occurs nobody with money has an incentive to economize; people with extra money will literally just buy up and hoard everything they can afford, removing it from the market altogether. They can afford to blow money on it, so what do they care?

If scalpers take some of that supply and resell it for higher prices, those with money will be less interested if they don't have a real need for it. If people on this board here have 20K rounds of 9mm, they're going to be less likely to want to pay the inflated prices for it right now. At least some of the item remains in the market instead of in the hoarders' basements and it's more likely to be available for people who need it... even if it's at a higher price.

Rob Boudrie said:
Arbs are one of the reasons you can find ammo at $1/round rather than not find it at $.16 a round.
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Exactly this ☝️

Scalpers are basically speculators, making the bet that the prices people will pay are higher than the retailers sell them for. Right now that's a pretty safe bet. If the market readjusts they could be left holding the bag. That's their gamble.

Do I grumble about the price of ammo right now? Damn right I do. Do I wish I had the financial means to stock up before all this hit? Yeah I do; I wish I had been able to afford it. It sucks pretty badly to be priced out of a market but that doesn't mean I have the right to demand the market curve itself toward my means. It means I have to readjust my priorities.
 
Mountain said:
Hey you- ammo and components hoarder / speculator: Yes, capitalism blah blah blah. You're still a POS. No guarantee it will happen, but assuming prices do eventually normalize I hope your ass gets burned with goods you can only sell at cost or below.

And for all you 'should have been smarter and bought ahead' dipshits: Yes I did stock up on a few years worth of components and/or ammo that I use regularly in matches. I won't restock until later 2021 and only another year ahead if prices are still retarded.
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So, your thinking is that people who snapped up 9mm ammo at, say, $0.35-$0.40/rd will watch the prices for 9mm go from roughly $0.80/rd to $0.25/rd before selling, and therefore "get their asses burned with goods they can only sell at cost or below?" Really? People who were smart enough to buy when they saw the prices going up will be so stupid they hold the ammo until the price is below their acquisition price? Really?

Your "hope you all get burned" wish only works in three scenarios, all equally unlikely: 1) these people all bought all their ammo at the very peak of 9mm prices, i.e. prices will only go down; 2) 5 trillion rounds of ammo get dumped onto the market in a day, dropping the bottom out of ammo prices faster than they can unload; 3) someone is hit by a car, goes into a coma, and wakes up 3 years later when prices have fallen to pre-crazy levels.

Envy is not a good look on anybody.
 
Same people here that praise scalpers as fixtures of a free market also praise a free market for reducing inefficiencies (like needless middlemen).
 
drgrant said:
You should be more angry at the people buying from speculators/flippers. Without them the shit prices wouldn't exist. During obamascares flippers didn't do so hot because people were far more recalcitrant.
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This.
Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, one of my friends who's a dealer says they're still buying 9mm from distributors at roughly $10 per box RIGHT NOW. Online vendors are jacking up the price and everyone is glad to pay it. If almost everyone stopped paying the rape prices online (which will never happen I realize...) the prices would most definitely fall. But why would a vendor drop prices now if everyone is fighting to spend 60+ cpr on 9mm??

@dcmdon posted a screenshot of the ammo pricing from a distributor which is the same pricing my buddy is getting. His ammo prices beat any online vendor at the moment. The problem is that the shop will get cleared out the same day the ammo arrives so you basically need to camp outside the shop [laugh]
 
andrew1220 said:
Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, one of my friends who's a dealer says they're still buying 9mm from distributors at roughly $10 per box RIGHT NOW. Online vendors are jacking up the price and everyone is glad to pay it. If almost everyone stopped paying the rape prices online (which will never happen I realize...) the prices would most definitely fall. But why would a vendor drop prices now if everyone is fighting to spend 60+ cpr on 9mm??

@dcmdon posted a screenshot of the ammo pricing from a distributor which is the same pricing my buddy is getting. His ammo prices beat any online vendor at the moment. The problem is that the shop will get cleared out the same day the ammo arrives so you basically need to camp outside the shop [laugh]
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It's worth knowing, though, that the amount of ammo entering the channel at that price isn't a crazy volume, though. So when the normal stuff comes the bigs get it (cabelas, some of the larger shops) and thats the end of that. And if some FFLs are lucky they get the table scraps from that.
 
drgrant said:
It's worth knowing, though, that the amount of ammo entering the channel at that price isn't a crazy volume, though. So when the normal stuff comes the bigs get it (cabelas, some of the larger shops) and thats the end of that. And if some FFLs are lucky they get the table scraps from that.
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True. He did say that they only get a small amount allocated to them.
 
I love the misdirected anger. Let's hate on the people willing to do the leg work to get supply and make it available. It only works because SOMEONE WILL BUY IT.

There are true scums out there. I knowingly dealt with one of them recently and not surprisingly their true nature came through. I have a lot of alerts setup at various volume retailers for certain products that are "worth" more in MA than they are in the rest of the country. My goal being to acquire from these retailers (since I can't get enough product through distribution) and resell here in MA at my shop. I make money and my customers are happy. A few on NES will be unhappy because this makes me SCUM but I can live with this. At least the products are going to MA residents and not to free staters who don't "appreciate" the full value of the items.

I got a notice from such a retailer on Friday. They had an item I wanted in stock at $139 each. I added 1000 to my cart and it was adjusted down to 76. I placed the order; they charged my business CC; they sent me an email confirmation. Life is good. I double checked the website and now they are sold out. Everything is consistent.

Yesterday I got two emails from this retailer. One was a refund (partial) and the other was an email explanation. We are sorry, we are refunding 73 of the 76 you ordered. Our systems should not have allowed you to purchase more than 3. So sorry, you should see your refund in a few business days.

Hmm. They have no such limit posted on their website and I have purchased this and similar products from them numerous times in quantity. I have a dealer account with them which pre-covid meant better pricing but they have suspended dealer pricing for the duration. But limits? No limits have been seen with this retailer previously. Ok. I will check out their website. I look up the item. They have it in stock. I was able to add 50 to my cart and get all the way through checkout to the last submission (which I did not do). The best part. The price went from 139 to 199 per unit.

Now tell me this is fine, ethical behavior. They are free to do whatever they want, but they are dead to me. Apparently my purchasing their entire stock (I am a known dealer to them) convinced them they were under serving the market and should be charging more. So cancel my order and raise the price and see what happens.

Davidsondefense.com for the curious. Tacticalsolutionsgroup.com used to be at the same address before someone moved from UT to OH. Both are known flakes that I have dealt with for years and know they do stupid shit. I bought some complete lowers once and they took 6 weeks to ship because they were waiting on castle nuts. Hmm. They were in stock when you sold them to me; well no, the stripped lowers were. And I had to redo every one I get as the buffer tubes were skewed, the nuts were improperly torqued and they were not staked. As I said, I knew what I was dealing with but this is a new low.

People buying and selling for a profit I have no problem with. Scum business practices I do.
 

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