Ammo Scalping Article with Kittery Trading Post Interview

[silversquirrel]

I think you missed the point

Obviously. But my observation is that ammo, once its used, is gone (yes, save the brass) and the value is zero.
Silver retains its value, up or down. Melt it down and make teapots and spoons, the value is retained. If the price goes down, you have less value, but not zero.
Buying ammo is paying a usage fee.
Sure, hoarded ammo is a commodity, if you dont plan on ever shooting it.

 

[slugworth]

Anyone need 9 mm???

 

[Davidk]

Obviously. But my observation is that ammo, once its used, is gone (yes, save the brass) and the value is zero.
Silver retains its value, up or down. Melt it down and make teapots and spoons, the value is retained. If the price goes down, you have less value, but not zero.
Buying ammo is paying a usage fee.
Sure, hoarded ammo is a commodity, if you dont plan on ever shooting it.

Sorry to inform you that capitalism and free market economy works the same on all goods, even if you shoot it.

 

[drgrant]

Obviously. But my observation is that ammo, once its used, is gone (yes, save the brass) and the value is zero.
Silver retains its value, up or down. Melt it down and make teapots and spoons, the value is retained. If the price goes down, you have less value, but not zero.
Buying ammo is paying a usage fee.
Sure, hoarded ammo is a commodity, if you dont plan on ever shooting it.

Lol fuel is consumable too doesn't make it any less of a commodity. Not sure what distinction you're trying to make here.

 

[Davidk]

Lol fuel is consumable too doesn't make it any less of a commodity. Not sure what distinction you're trying to make here.

He's trying to justify his hate for people who bought ammo when it was available because he didn't.

 

[Davidk]

Buying ammo for $15 and selling it for $45 is capitalism. No different than buying and selling stocks. Selling something for $100, taking orders, canceling the orders, then reselling it for $200 (as the concept was described by someone else post) is pure scum.

I backordered 14,000 rounds of 9mm for $16/50 in 3 separate orders from Optics Planet months ago. Not a good price, but the crisis was just starting so I paid it, expecting supply to turn to near zero and prices would explode--which it did. They were the only company that I found that allowed backorders at current prices. The other suppliers just offered stock arrival notifications which allowed them to charge what they wanted when it came in.

The expected ship date kept getting pushed back. I expected them to cancel the order or raise the price, but they didnt. 5000 just shipped, the other 9000 is still on backorder with an expected ship date of mid May. They did right by me. They did double the new price for new backorders though.

I believe that they are buying the ammo at the same wholesale cost as pre crisis, and they raised the price because that's what the market will pay. While I hate having to order at double the price, but that's capitalism. Those that didn't buy at $16 now have to pay $35.

 

[silversquirrel]

He's trying to justify his hate for people who bought ammo when it was available because he didn't.

No, im stocked up on ammo, and reloading supplies, and happily dipping in whenever I want.
Not trying to argue. But my point is, ammo these days is a commodity, sure, but you would not base your kids eduction, or your retirement savings on it.

 

[ScottS]

Buying ammo for $15 and selling it for $45 is capitalism. No different than buying and selling stocks. Selling something for $100, taking orders, canceling the orders, then reselling it for $200 (as the concept was described by someone else post) is pure scum.

I backordered 14,000 rounds of 9mm for $16/50 in 3 separate orders from Optics Planet months ago. Not a good price, but the crisis was just starting so I paid it, expecting supply to turn to near zero and prices would explode--which it did. They were the only company that I found that allowed backorders at current prices. The other suppliers just offered stock arrival notifications which allowed them to charge what they wanted when it came in.

The expected ship date kept getting pushed back. I expected them to cancel the order or raise the price, but they didnt. 5000 just shipped, the other 9000 is still on backorder with an expected ship date of mid May. They did right by me. They did double the new price for new backorders though.

I believe that they are buying the ammo at the same wholesale cost as pre crisis, and they raised the price because that's what the market will pay. While I hate having to order at double the price, but that's capitalism. Those that didn't buy at $16 now have to pay $35.

This is good to know. I also back ordered a shitload from them in the summer/early fall, and expected they'd just cancel the back order. Good to know they're honoring them.

I didn't mind the wait, because part of my logistics plan is to have a steady stream of supply over a longer period of time. I didn't mind the delay at all.

 

[greencobra]

Some days on NES it’s ok to do the Free Market thing while other days it’s not

jeez, i think i spotted one or two who were selling "custom" ar rifles for $3000 not too long ago crying the loudest. i'm too lazy to do research to confirm.

 

[spt_1955]

Biggest load of BS I have ever read pushed by a retailer.

"online suppliers are getting stock in but it is all going to backorders". Don't know of a current online retailer that has been taking backorders for 6 months.

"People are clearing the shelves at large retailers like Walmart and re selling it at large markups." Ah yes the old "whoa is me Walmart is driving the little guy out of business". better pick a new scapegoat because unless you are shooting a Joe Biden special 12 GA you are not getting your Ammo at Walmart any more. The handgun ammo shelves at Bass Pro are less than 10% of the size they used to be (that's not an exaggeration) and they are replaced by a sign apologizing for the lack of product on the shelf because of their inability to get any in the global supply chain due to overwhelming demand and disruption of shipping services.

 

[whatluck]

What the actual f do you EXPECT them to do? Sell it for 20 cents a round and have no inventory at all? Oh yeah, guess what, you wouldn't be shopping there anyway since there's no ammo on the shelves. Everyone (who's butthurt) needs to just take a deep fricking breath and realize this will pass.

No gun control bill will pass both houses, if it does, it's not like it will be enforceable anyway. I can only hope the SCOTUS would take up a complete ban as unconstitutional at this point. The Great Barry O couldn't get gun measures passed after the school shootings under his regime. I sure as hell won't comply, I'll send my one NFA item back with a note that all my other firearms have been 'liquidated' and it is no longer needed. It will be unusable to anyone else once I'm done with it as well.

I am MUCH more worried about them passing taxes on ammo. That one thing could severely disrupt firearms ownership, especially for poor people who live in hellhole places like the Desire Projects or Lower 9th Ward. Two of the most dangerous areas in the country to live in.

A good false flag will change that.

 

[ScottS]

What the actual f do you EXPECT them to do? Sell it for 20 cents a round and have no inventory at all? Oh yeah, guess what, you wouldn't be shopping there anyway since there's no ammo on the shelves. Everyone (who's butthurt) needs to just take a deep fricking breath and realize this will pass.

No gun control bill will pass both houses, if it does, it's not like it will be enforceable anyway. I can only hope the SCOTUS would take up a complete ban as unconstitutional at this point. The Great Barry O couldn't get gun measures passed after the school shootings under his regime. I sure as hell won't comply, I'll send my one NFA item back with a note that all my other firearms have been 'liquidated' and it is no longer needed. It will be unusable to anyone else once I'm done with it as well.

I am MUCH more worried about them passing taxes on ammo. That one thing could severely disrupt firearms ownership, especially for poor people who live in hellhole places like the Desire Projects or Lower 9th Ward. Two of the most dangerous areas in the country to live in.

No offense intended, but I think you're kidding yourself here. Sleepy Joe and Sleazy Ho have control of both Houses; there's a good chance they'll get enough votes to move their rabid gun control agenda forward. Will they get it all? Probably not, but every click of the ratchet is harder to undo in the future.

 

[mrmike7189]

Cool, another ammo thread. Plan too late? Don’t invite us to your pity party. (Spoken to the complainers of course.)

Did no one notice the abundance and historically cheap prices of ammo just over 1 year ago during the Trump slump?

Yes and I bought lots of it. ....... boy I gut smartz

 

[Mountain]

So, your thinking is that people who snapped up 9mm ammo at, say, $0.35-$0.40/rd will watch the prices for 9mm go from roughly $0.80/rd to $0.25/rd before selling, and therefore "get their asses burned with goods they can only sell at cost or below?" Really? People who were smart enough to buy when they saw the prices going up will be so stupid they hold the ammo until the price is below their acquisition price? Really?

Your "hope you all get burned" wish only works in three scenarios, all equally unlikely: 1) these people all bought all their ammo at the very peak of 9mm prices, i.e. prices will only go down; 2) 5 trillion rounds of ammo get dumped onto the market in a day, dropping the bottom out of ammo prices faster than they can unload; 3) someone is hit by a car, goes into a coma, and wakes up 3 years later when prices have fallen to pre-crazy levels.

Envy is not a good look on anybody.

No envy, I have what I need for a couple more match seasons / years. That message is not for the folks who bought ahead- I'd be throwing stones from a glass house. That message is 100% for the jackasses NOW who have nothing better to do than camp out in front of a computer all day- not for what they need but for what they think they can flip. Some will get away with it, but eventually there will be more than a few sitting on quantities they will never use and if selling will let go at a loss.

This supply and demand situation will eventually settle down. The overall price of ammo from even the larger, most stable sources will be higher than historic due to all the madness now. Many people will already be overstocked and others will simply defer purchases while the prices remain high. Big retailer ammo will eventually go on sale to move and overall prices will reduce to keep the inventory turning. Rinse repeat, same scenario applies to almost any nonperishable in short supply panic mode.

Oh, this one's special: I love the misdirected anger. Let's hate on the people willing to do the leg work to get supply and make it available.



Please explain to me how underemployed basement trolls with idle hands who can spend their time snatching up ammo that's already available equates to doing the leg work to make it available? Yeah, because paying 5X the price and having to drive 45 minutes to pay cash is so much more 'available' than ordering online from a known retailer with good shipping options. Is it more available than driving 10 minutes to your LGS?

I don't hate anyone but I do think it's laughable that the ammo 'speculators' think they are somehow beneficial and not the parasites they truly are. Maybe it won't happen, but they certainly deserve to get burned for their greed once availability and pricing normalize.

NES collectively is usually a haven for sound logic. Not so much in this case.

 

[weekendracer]

No offense intended, but I think you're kidding yourself here. Sleepy Joe and Sleazy Ho have control of both Houses; there's a good chance they'll get enough votes to move their rabid gun control agenda forward. Will they get it all? Probably not, but every click of the ratchet is harder to undo in the future.

No, I've been through this before. Big O had both houses as well, what bill passed? I'll be over here waiting.

 

[ScottS]

No envy, I have what I need for a couple more match seasons / years. That message is not for the folks who bought ahead- I'd be throwing stones from a glass house. That message is 100% for the jackasses NOW who have nothing better to do than camp out in front of a computer all day- not for what they need but for what they think they can flip. Some will get away with it, but eventually there will be more than a few sitting on quantities they will never use and if selling will let go at a loss.

This supply and demand situation will eventually settle down. The overall price of ammo from even the larger, most stable sources will be higher than historic due to all the madness now. Many people will already be overstocked and others will simply defer purchases while the prices remain high. Big retailer ammo will eventually go on sale to move and overall prices will reduce to keep the inventory turning. Rinse repeat, same scenario applies to almost any nonperishable in short supply panic mode.

Oh, this one's special: I love the misdirected anger. Let's hate on the people willing to do the leg work to get supply and make it available.



Please explain to me how underemployed basement trolls with idle hands who can spend their time snatching up ammo that's already available equates to doing the leg work to make it available? Yeah, because paying 5X the price and having to drive 45 minutes to pay cash is so much more 'available' than ordering online from a known retailer with good shipping options. Is it more available than driving 10 minutes to your LGS?

I don't hate anyone but I do think it's laughable that the ammo 'speculators' think they are somehow beneficial and not the parasites they truly are. Maybe it won't happen, but they certainly deserve to get burned for their greed once availability and pricing normalize.

NES collectively is usually a haven for sound logic. Not so much in this case.

I guess I'm losing your point. You bought ahead (it seems), but you dislike people who are currently "speculating" from their basements because...they're not shooters? Or they don't have the right to try and make money? Or the right to screw up if they buy high and have to sell low? I don't get it. Maybe they'll mess up their "investing" and lose money. Maybe not. It won't really affect me either way. Do you also dislike day traders, or people who speculate in currency? Because it's pretty much the same thing, from my viewpoint anyway.

I also find your characterization of "underemployed basement trolls with idle hands" with just tons of disposable income to use on "snatching up ammo" somewhat...incongruous. This shit's expensive, and I doubt the average guy living in a basement collecting unemployment or "underemployed" has just wads of money ready to "cash in" on these deals.

 

[ScottS]

No, I've been through this before. Big O had both houses as well, what bill passed? I'll be over here waiting.

No reason to be a dick. I've been through this before, too, probably as many or more times than you. There are a lot more squishy "R" Senators in place these days, and the Senate was the only thing that stopped UBC's last time. You only have to look at last week's Impeachment vote to see that. The only way UBC was stopped was through filibuster , which our Democrap overlords have already show a predilection to eliminating. Obongo had the votes to pass UBC; Manchin-Toomey got 54 votes. He didn't have the 60 he needed. If the filibuster goes, there's nothing to stop "common sense" gun reform, 'cuz, you know, it's just common sense.

 

[Mountain]

I guess I'm losing your point. You bought ahead (it seems), but you dislike people who are currently "speculating" from their basements because...they're not shooters? Or they don't have the right to try and make money? Or the right to screw up if they buy high and have to sell low? I don't get it. Maybe they'll mess up their "investing" and lose money. Maybe not. It won't really affect me either way. Do you also dislike day traders, or people who speculate in currency? Because it's pretty much the same thing, from my viewpoint anyway.

I also find your characterization of "underemployed basement trolls with idle hands" with just tons of disposable income to use on "snatching up ammo" somewhat...incongruous. This shit's expensive, and I doubt the average guy living in a basement collecting unemployment or "underemployed" has just wads of money ready to "cash in" on these deals.

Yes, they have the right to play Martin Shkreli with their stimulus checks and shopping bots.

 

[Me Have ADD]

Believe me, I get the free market "it's a voluntary exchange" argument. Let's say we're all standing in line at a gun store and I camped out in the parking lot and I'm first in line. Doors open and there's no limit per customer. I clean them out and immediately walk into the parking lot and sell the ammo at 3x the cost of what the gun store was selling it at.

Not only is there no ammo left for you, but if you want it, you're paying a sh!t ton more for it. Have I added anything of value to society? Nope...and don't act like you would hate me for doing it. And it would be ok to hate someone for doing that. Criticizing scalpers isn't being a socialist.

 

[Mountain]

Criticizing scalpers isn't being a socialist.

Hush yer mouth, you commie pinko cretin! You just don't understand the free market dynamics that make scalpers the true heroes that they are! I swear to God, sometimes this place is like a See 'n Say. Put the pointer on "Ammo scalpers are @ssholes" or "$500 stripped lowers are bullsh!t" and you get the same canned response every time, time after time.

 

[ScottS]

Believe me, I get the free market "it's a voluntary exchange" argument. Let's say we're all standing in line at a gun store and I camped out in the parking lot and I'm first in line. Doors open and there's no limit per customer. I clean them out and immediately walk into the parking lot and sell the ammo at 3x the cost of what the gun store was selling it at.

Not only is there no ammo left for you, but if you want it, you're paying a sh!t ton more for it. Have I added anything of value to society? Nope...and don't act like you would hate me for doing it. And it would be ok to hate someone for doing that. Criticizing scalpers isn't being a socialist.

So, you do your homework (knowing there's going to be ammo there), do your legwork (spend the night there to be first), accept the risk (buy the ammo), make the ammo available to others in the market (resell in the parking lot), and make a profit for your homework, legwork, and risk. And we're supposed to think you're bad for that?

I'm sorry, but your argument is purely socialist, no matter how you try to mask your indignation. Don't like it? Do homework, legwork, and accept the risk. Otherwise, comrade, stop complaining when someone else does it.

 

[Me Have ADD]

So, you do your homework (knowing there's going to be ammo there), do your legwork (spend the night there to be first), accept the risk (buy the ammo), make the ammo available to others in the market (resell in the parking lot), and make a profit for your homework, legwork, and risk. And we're supposed to think you're bad for that?

I'm sorry, but your argument is purely socialist, no matter how you try to mask your indignation. Don't like it? Do homework, legwork, and accept the risk. Otherwise, comrade, stop complaining when someone else does it.

The point is it's ok to hate price gouging and scalpers. I'd like to see the shops put some limits on ammo.

 

[240Geezer]

Every time I check in to one of these threads seeking insight I am sorely disappointed.
As in losing IQ points disappointed. SMH.

 

[jkelly1229]

You buy silver for 25 and sell for 50 and its ok. Someone buys ammo for 25 and sells it for 50 and its not ok?

Yeah don't you know the rules of made up economics

 

[drgrant]

The point is it's ok to hate price gouging and scalpers. I'd like to see the shops put some limits on ammo.

So if the scalping and flippers are concealed so you don't hear the dolphin noises, it makes it better?

Not sure what getting mad does. In a best case scenario you just make the flipping less visible and you get more bare shelves. Obamascare 1 was more like that. More "out of stock" etc. Big improvement.

ETA: lots of shops have low box limits....

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The problem with this is unless they're retarded and playing "small ball" they'll never get screwed because of sticky price. Ammo prices don't drop like a rock overnight. It's not like guns where the bottom of the market can fall out over a weekend.

You should be more angry at the people buying from speculators/flippers. Without them the shit prices wouldn't exist. During obamascares flippers didn't do so hot because people were far more recalcitrant.

Also outside of primers i would be hard pressed to believe "hoarding" of components. Demand is just stupid high and commercial reloaders hit the same suppliers we do, fundamentally.

Just look at houses. Even a rumor there was a comp that just sold at a market topping value will upprice every new listing that comes on the market in that area, but it takes at least 6 months for sellers to accept a decline in market value and stuff just sits while people look for that one person they think will pay the old price.

I predict a 10%-25% increase in primer and ammo prices once things settle to a "new normal".

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Believe me, I get the free market "it's a voluntary exchange" argument. Let's say we're all standing in line at a gun store and I camped out in the parking lot and I'm first in line. Doors open and there's no limit per customer. I clean them out and immediately walk into the parking lot and sell the ammo at 3x the cost of what the gun store was selling it at.

Not only is there no ammo left for you, but if you want it, you're paying a sh!t ton more for it. Have I added anything of value to society? Nope...and don't act like you would hate me for doing it. And it would be ok to hate someone for doing that. Criticizing scalpers isn't being a socialist.

Been there done that, absent the parking lot and profit. Way back during the first great primer shortage, there was warning as it moved across the country. I went to my local shop and said "I'll take the small rifle primers" (I use them for fotay and super). "How many?" Me....when I said "the" I was referring to all of them, including any you have in back.

Then, I proceeded to take care of a few friends at cost. That was decades ago; we don't get as much advance warning (if any) these days.

 

[TheGreekFreak]

Believe me, I get the free market "it's a voluntary exchange" argument. Let's say we're all standing in line at a gun store and I camped out in the parking lot and I'm first in line. Doors open and there's no limit per customer. I clean them out and immediately walk into the parking lot and sell the ammo at 3x the cost of what the gun store was selling it at.

Not only is there no ammo left for you, but if you want it, you're paying a sh!t ton more for it. Have I added anything of value to society? Nope...and don't act like you would hate me for doing it. And it would be ok to hate someone for doing that. Criticizing scalpers isn't being a socialist.

This only happens if people exist that are ok with paying 3X the price.....most of who were just unprepared for the shortage but still want to maintain their hobby (or begin to prep for the end of the world!) now.

On the other hand, I bought WAY more ammo than I reasonably need a few years ago. Not with the intention of ever flipping it (heck, I thought Trump would win).....it was just too cheap to pass up and I knew the money wouldn't go to waste, regardless of my use rate. Why would I not sell some of the overflow laying around that I truly don't rely on now at a higher price when I know prices will be cheap again by the time my main supply is out? So I can pat myself on the back and smugly say "at least I'm not one of those evil scalpers!"

Now if some idiot with no job wants to camp out in parking lots or refresh web pages every minute thinking he'll make a fortune on reselling, good luck with that career choice if you're prepared, it doesn't effect you either way. If you're not, either pay up or cut back on the lead slinging for a bit....problem solved and eventually said camper will realize he'd make more per hour working at McDonalds.

But it seems people aren't only upset at those types.....they're upset at anyone simply selling at the prices people are buying for now which are high, which is childish.

I only feel bad for anyone whose job is dependent on some steady supply of ammo they can no longer get from distributors due to backorders clogging things up. Its easy to stock up as an individual, I would imagine not so much when the quantities get really big.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Sorry to inform you that capitalism and free market economy works the same on all goods, even if you shoot it.

If you were truly sorry to inform him, you could have simply not posted and saved yourself the regret

But, your statement is 100% correct. I had someone try to explain to me why offering a ride to a senior in return for the piggyback Covid vaccine (yes, I called it a vaccine) since that those accompanying anyone over age 75 can get one (in MA) is not an economic transaction. She said it was offering a service to the old person, not offering barter for something of value. Word is the going rate for giving a senior a ride to a MA vaccine center is in the $200 - $300 range, payable to the senior.

 

[AHM]

Given the same $ sunk into ammo vs mats, the guy with the mats is going to make 30-50% more ammo than you, maybe more. If he (or you for that matter) can ride out the whole thing
on reserves, then there are no scalpers, you basically get to drive past them.

You don't have to reload to do what he is doing, but it will cost you more money to get the same level of insurance vs time that he has.

I'ma be transgressive,
via channeling the Dave Ramsey Wisdom that
the most important thing to invest in is yourself.

Someone who spent their evenings
haunting Stackoverflow topics on their Day Job
can have been making better use of their time
than if they spent it babysitting a 650 in the basement.

Because they had it in their grasp to get raises and promotions,
and which provides the ability (if not the intent) to use their serious surplus income
to buy way more ammo on the open market during good times,
than anyone now tin-cupping for components.


Only after churning out the above ragtime do I now realize that
only a day or two ago I was reading someone write that
the real valuable item was time. And I can't even remember whether
it was some sage NESer, or that fellow traveler who wrote "Zorba the Greek".
Unless someone claims right quick that it was them,
I'm gonna lay odds that it was Kazantzakis.


Although it's the height of idiocy to say this at you.
You're the busiest guy I know.