You Could Say I Am a Sniper Now ...

[Matt_SERE]

Yup, I watched it. Well done RD. They posted this yesterday.


View: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs9rgXQAucm/

 

[PappyM3]

Eh... I guess the roughly 400 ft/pounds in energy advantage the 308 has over the 6.5 means nothing then. Thanks for clarifying.

Haha, yes. At the muzzle, that 400 ft/lbs advantage means diddly squat. At the muzzle, both have enough energy to kill anything in North America.

Out to 500 yards they both have enough energy to effectively penetrate game to reach vitals and effectively open up good hunting bullets.

 

[PappyM3]

6 ARC. 6 GT is for across the course and benchrest nerds.

I’m getting more interested in 6 GT recently and may bypass 6 arc all together. As long as 6 GT gets more factory support, anyway.

It seems to achieve similar velocities as 6 CM, but with less powder.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Haha, yes. At the muzzle, that 400 ft/lbs advantage means diddly squat. At the muzzle, both have enough energy to kill anything in North America.

Out to 500 yards they both have enough energy to effectively penetrate game to reach vitals and effectively open up good hunting bullets.

The 308 still has more energy even at that range. Although at that range, I would argue BOTH are becoming unethical. 30-06 becomes the minimum with something like a 300 Win Mag being the standard if you want to reach out and touch big game.

 

[LuvDog]

I’m thinking 6 GayTiger next too.

 

[PappyM3]

The 308 still has more energy even at that range. Although at that range, I would argue BOTH are becoming unethical. 30-06 becomes the minimum with something like a 300 Win Mag being the standard if you want to reach out and touch big game.

At that range, the consideration is skill and environmental factors. They’ll both penetrate enough to pass through vitals and can expand. Whether someone is able to repeatedly place a vital shot in the current wind/weather, I think, is what determines ethics there.

But please tell me how the extra 400 ft/lbs at the muzzle matters? You have a 0.5” wound channel going through vitals vs a 0.55” wound channel. Both pass through the heart or lungs. How does the extra couple to few hundred ft/lbs of energy improve lethality?

 

[ThePreBanMan]

At that range, the consideration is skill and environmental factors. They’ll both penetrate enough to pass through vitals and can expand. Whether someone is able to repeatedly place a vital shot in the current wind/weather, I think, is what determines ethics there.

But please tell me how the extra 400 ft/lbs at the muzzle matters? You have a 0.5” wound channel going through vitals vs a 0.55” wound channel. Both pass through the heart or lungs. How does the extra couple to few hundred ft/lbs of energy improve lethality?

Well, for one, if at distance, a lot can happen in the time it takes your bullet to get there. The animal can take half a step and now that heart/lungs becomes a shoulder shot hitting thick bone... What if your shot opportunity isn't a perfect broadside? What if it's a hard quartering or head-on shot where you have to punch through the chest plate?

So you ask why that extra energy matters..... Well when you're shooting at a stationary target, like paper, under ideal conditions, I guess it doesn't. But when taking shots on moving wild game in the field, with unpredictable and changing shot angles and distances, that extra energy matters. It matters a lot. An ethical hunter doesn't carry enough gun just to get the job done when everything goes right. He carries enough gun to get the job done when things don't go entirely according to the script.

Edit:
To that I'll add, many a rifle hunter will tell you that when gun hunting, the ideal shot isn't behind the shoulder into the vitals.... That's for bow hunters. Rifle hunters shoot through the front shoulder. You still get both lungs and blow up the front leg, so the animal can't run.

That extra energy matters... It matters a lot.

 

[PappyM3]

Well, for one, if at distance, a lot can happen in the time it takes your bullet to get there. The animal can take half a step and now that heart/lungs becomes a shoulder shot hitting thick bone... What if your shot opportunity isn't a perfect broadside? What if it's a hard quartering or head-on shot where you have to punch through the chest plate?

So you ask why that extra energy matters..... Well when you're shooting at a stationary target, like paper, under ideal conditions, I guess it doesn't. But when taking shots on moving wild game in the field, with unpredictable and changing shot angles and distances, that extra energy matters. It matters a lot. An ethical hunter doesn't carry enough gun just to get the job done when everything goes right. He carries enough gun to get the job done when things don't go entirely according to the script.

Are you saying that at point blank, when 308 has the extra 400 ft/lbs of energy, that a 6.5 CM won’t penetrate through a shoulder?

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Are you saying that at point blank, when 308 has the extra 400 ft/lbs of energy, that a 6.5 CM won’t penetrate through a shoulder?

Most shots on game occur inside 300 yards. There is still a large disparity between the 6.5 and 308 at that range. Even still, the 6.5 is unethical at any range on large game, IMHO.

Edit:... and it's not just punching through the shoulder... It's punching through the shoulder, rib cage, then both lungs, and retaining structural integrity and weight while doing so. The 308, enjoys a 20% energy advantage and a nearly 40% weight advantage. You just can't argue which is better in this use case.

 

[PappyM3]

Most shots on game occur inside 300 yards. There is still a large disparity between the 6.5 and 308 at that range. Even still, the 6.5 is unethical at any range on large game, IMHO.

Edit:... and it's not just punching through the shoulder... It's punching through the shoulder, rib cage, then both lungs, and retaining structural integrity and weight while doing so. The 308, enjoys a 20% energy advantage and a nearly 40% weight advantage. You just can't argue which is better in this use case.

By all your logic about energy, bow hunting is unethical.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Yea, you're right... When it comes to things like chamber pressures, barrel life, down range energy.... the 6.5 doesn't hold a candle to the .30 cals. There simply is no comparison. I mean hell, if you really wanted to go full vaginal sniper, you could at least argue for the 6.5 PRC.... But Creedmore.... That's a cute little rifle you got there. Does your non-binary adolescent they/them kid enjoy shooting it?



The exact same thing could be said about the 6.5 Creedmore. It's for man bun wearing, straight-edge, gender studies majors afraid of the .270.

New Englanders... talking about barrel life and long range calibers. Have you ever shot out a barrel on anything? Do you even have access to a range greater than 500 yards? Based on the fact that you're saying 270 is better than 6.5 creed im guessing not.

270 is probably a "better" round for eastern whitetails inside of 400yds but for long range precision its not even close. Also, 270 is pretty much dead/non existent in the precision rifle and "sniper" world, and its rapidly on its way out in the western big game world, in fact many major rifle manufacturers have completely stopped chambering rifles in 270win.

Id bet money that 6.5 creed has taken more elk and even brown bear than 270 in the western states in the past 5-10 years.

 

[Mudflap621]

that photo - i could never understand why they use this position at all, bending forward like this - you cannot hit anything well holding that pose.
snipers would shoot prone. if you`re by the window - you would find something to sit on. but to bend forward like this and bounce in your waist looks pretty stupid. and if shooting standing up, you would usually find something to lean at, to press your left shoulder into, to stop movement.

I disagree. Depending on situation, prone is not always an option. Hard to tell from the picture but form doesn’t look half bad. When shooting elevated you want to stack bones and get square behind the rifle like he is to mitigate movement as well as recoil.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

New Englanders... talking about barrel life and long range calibers. Have you ever shot out a barrel on anything? Do you even have access to a range greater than 500 yards? Based on the fact that you're saying 270 is better than 6.5 creed im guessing not.

270 is probably a "better" round for eastern whitetails inside of 400yds but for long range precision its not even close. Also, 270 is pretty much dead/non existent in the precision rifle and "sniper" world, and its rapidly on its way out in the western big game world, in fact many major rifle manufacturers have completely stopped chambering rifles in 270win.

Id bet money that 6.5 creed has taken more elk and even brown bear than 270 in the western states in the past 5-10 years.

There's a lot of falsehoods and just incomplete information in your post. I'll assume that was unintentional. First off, yes I have shot the barrel out of firearms. Which is why I prefer cartridges where that happens after tens of thousands of rounds, as opposed to only a few thousand rounds. Secondly, any rifle manufacturer that makes a rifle and a long action has an offering in 270. To your point some manufacturers do not offer the 270. They also don't offer the 30-06, or the 300 Win Mag, but I digress. That's not because those cartridges aren't popular, it's because they don't make rifles in a long action.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Most shots on game occur inside 300 yards. There is still a large disparity between the 6.5 and 308 at that range. Even still, the 6.5 is unethical at any range on large game, IMHO.

Edit:... and it's not just punching through the shoulder... It's punching through the shoulder, rib cage, then both lungs, and retaining structural integrity and weight while doing so. The 308, enjoys a 20% energy advantage and a nearly 40% weight advantage. You just can't argue which is better in this use case.

Im sure you're one of those guys who think shots on game past 300yds are also unethical. Because you cant hit reliably past that distance because you shoot big calibers hoping that minor energy advantages will compensate for your shortcomings/lack of confidence in shot placement and recoil management. Ie shooting for shoulders instead of just behind them.

We get it, cartridge/rifle technology has advanced since 1975 and you're super salty about it because nobody thinks your 270 is cool anymore.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Im sure you're one of those guys who think shots on game past 300yds are also unethical. Because you cant hit reliably past that distance because you shoot big calibers hoping that minor energy advantages to compensate for your shortcomings/lack of confidence in shot placement and recoil management. Ie shooting for shoulders instead of just behind them.

We get it, cartridge/rifle technology has advanced since 1975 and you're super salty about it because nobody thinks your 270 is cool anymore.

Wow you're awful defensive there bud. I get it. You bought into the 300 Blackout craze didn't you. And now you're salty you got smoked by another fashion statement caliber that is no longer in vogue. It burns you up that the 300 blackout rifles you bought now set idle in the safe next to your 40s. All in the name of cartridge advancement.

 

[Mountain]

I’m getting more interested in 6 GT recently and may bypass 6 arc all together. As long as 6 GT gets more factory support, anyway.

It seems to achieve similar velocities as 6 CM, but with less powder.

I’m thinking 6 GayTiger next too.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

There's a lot of falsehoods and just incomplete information in your post. I'll assume that was unintentional. First off, yes I have shot the barrel out of firearms. Which is why I prefer cartridges where that happens after tens of thousands of rounds, as opposed to only a few thousand rounds. Secondly, any rifle manufacturer that makes a rifle and a long action has an offering in 270. To your point some manufacturers do not offer the 270. They also don't offer the 30-06, or the 300 Win Mag, but I digress. That's not because those cartridges aren't popular, it's because they don't make rifles in a long action.

Post a picture of your best 10 round 1000yd group with a 270 win and ill post a picture of my best 10 round 1000yd group with a 6.5 ceeed. We'll calculate all your energy advantages and then take the average group size and put it over a target the size of an elk's heart, and decide which would kill the animal more ethically.

I work in the industry, the only reason anyone still offers rifles in calibers like 30-06 and 270win is because most gun owners are ignorant and think a bullet needs to completely vaporize both of an animal's front shoulders and also simultaneously decapitate it to kill it.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Wow you're awful defensive there bud. I get it. You bought into the 300 Blackout craze didn't you. And now you're salty you got smoked by another fashion statement caliber that is no longer in vogue. It burns you up that the 300 blackout rifles you bought now set idle in the safe next to your 40s. All in the name of cartridge advancement.

Lol no i think we can all agree 300blk is useless for everything except wasting somebody in their bed while their kids are sleeping in the next room.

Im honestly with you on cardashian calibers, all the new wizbang stuff is sold by "the industry" to get you to go buy the latest hotness when to be honest, your 270 is still PLENTY capable for your standard use.

I mainly shoot 556 and 308 at distance, i got the creedmoor for long distance precision shooting on paper and people if need be and for that use its pretty sweet.

Where you lost me is when you started saying 270 is better than 6.5 at distance shooting because that is ballistically inaccurate.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Most shots on game occur inside 300 yards. There is still a large disparity between the 6.5 and 308 at that range. Even still, the 6.5 is unethical at any range on large game, IMHO.

Edit:... and it's not just punching through the shoulder... It's punching through the shoulder, rib cage, then both lungs, and retaining structural integrity and weight while doing so. The 308, enjoys a 20% energy advantage and a nearly 40% weight advantage. You just can't argue which is better in this use case.

What do you think about the 26 Nosler or 264 win mag for big game?

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Lol no i think we can all agree 300blk is useless for everything except wasting somebody in their bed while their kids are sleeping in the next room.

If suppressors were legal in MA, I'd seriously consider a 300BLK SBR as a home defense rife.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Lol no i think we can all agree 300blk is useless for everything except wasting somebody in their bed while their kids are sleeping in the next room.

Im honestly with you on cardashian calibers, all the new wizbang stuff is sold by "the industry" to get you to go buy the latest hotness when to be honest, your 270 is still PLENTY capable for your standard use.

I mainly shoot 556 and 308 at distance, i got the creedmoor for long distance precision shooting on paper and people if need be and for that use its pretty sweet.

Where you lost me is when you started saying 270 is better than 6.5 at distance shooting because that is ballistically inaccurate.

Except I never said that. There is no doubt the 6.5 has its advantages. Flatter, faster, less recoil... It's a great target round with a part-time hunting hobby. But in a hunting use case, I would rather have a 30-06 or a .270 at real-world hunting distances, taking real-world shots on wild game. The ranges typical hunting shots occur at do not allow for the 6.5's advantages to be leveraged, and the .270, 30-06, and even the .308 perform better on game.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

Where you lost me is when you started saying 270 is better than 6.5 at distance shooting because that is ballistically inaccurate.

View: https://youtu.be/ym5QWbLyFQs


Better in what way?
In the first half of Ron's video he explains why Hornady developed the 6.5. The reasons do not apply to 99.9% of the 6.5 manbun owners.
How many manbun owners have worn out their brass from reloading? I would bet the majority of 6.5 owners do not even reload (present company of operators in this thread excluded)

 

[ThePreBanMan]

By all your logic about energy, bow hunting is unethical.

Apples to oranges. Arrows kill via cutting and hemorrhaging. Guns kill via blunt force trauma. But if you want to debate the merits of light vs heavy arrows and mechanicals vs single bevel fixed-blade broadheads, there is plenty of room for debate here too.

 

[Woodsloafer]

New Englanders... talking about barrel life and long range calibers. Have you ever shot out a barrel on anything? Do you even have access to a range greater than 500 yards? Based on the fact that you're saying 270 is better than 6.5 creed im guessing not.

270 is probably a "better" round for eastern whitetails inside of 400yds but for long range precision its not even close. Also, 270 is pretty much dead/non existent in the precision rifle and "sniper" world, and its rapidly on its way out in the western big game world, in fact many major rifle manufacturers have completely stopped chambering rifles in 270win.

Id bet money that 6.5 creed has taken more elk and even brown bear than 270 in the western states in the past 5-10 years.

There are no brown bears in the lower 48, only grizzlies, and grizzlies have not been hunted in the lower 48 in decades.

In New England, most deer are taken well within 100 yards, I doubt very few are taken at more than 200 yards. In the western states, the far majority of elk, mule deer, etc. are taken within 200 yards.

6.5 Creedmoor: Is it REALLY enough for hunting bull elk? – Backfire

backfire.tv

Hornady data, almost the same exact bullets in 6.5 and 270, despite slightly better BCs with the 6.5 bullets, the 270s extra velocity more than makes up for it:

6.5 Creedmoor 143 gr ELD-X® Precision Hunter​

270 Win 145 gr ELD-X® Precision Hunter​

6.5 Creedmoor 129 gr SST® Superformance®​

270 Win 130 gr SST® Superformance®​

 

[PatMcD]

This has turned into the funniest message thread of 2023.

 

[Broc]

Except I never said that. There is no doubt the 6.5 has its advantages. Flatter, faster, less recoil... It's a great target round with a part-time hunting hobby. But in a hunting use case, I would rather have a 30-06 or a .270 at real-world hunting distances, taking real-world shots on wild game. The ranges typical hunting shots occur at do not allow for the 6.5's advantages to be leveraged, and the .270, 30-06, and even the .308 perform better on game

"real world" is not just most of New England. There is a big country out there with plenty of open space.

 

[Broc]

This has turned into the funniest message thread of 2023.

I will have to start another one when I want to start posting anything useful again so @ThePreBanMan doesnt turn it into his rant.

 

[Broc]

@ThePreBanMan

Go rant over here: Lets Settle This

 

[PappyM3]

Apples to oranges. Arrows kill via cutting and hemorrhaging. Guns kill via blunt force trauma. But if you want to debate the merits of light vs heavy arrows and mechanicals vs single bevel fixed-blade broadheads, there is plenty of room for debate here too.

False. Guns also kill via hemorrhaging by crushing tissue (what you call cutting). Generally you need a fragmenting rifle bullet (often in varmint loads) in order to turn temporary cavity into permanent wounding. Otherwise, the most common rifle wounding mechanism is crushing tissue.


Back on topic: the 6.5 CM is pretty neato. It’s cool to reliably reach out to 1k yards with a 16” barrel.

 

[vicorjh]

Guns kill via blunt force trauma

View: https://youtu.be/EuwZmE4REEI?t=14