Which One Is Better For Long Range Shooting

[northny]

I don't like the new Remington stuff since freedom group owns Remington if its a old Remington 700 then there good and if I go with a 700 I would have to find a good used 700 and i would then buy one and put it in to a chassis system to.

The older Remington 700s were machine art. The blueing was beautiful. The wood stocks attractive (but it took 20 years for the stock to realize it was no longer a tree and to stop moving), and the ribbed triggers adjustable and usable.

That said don’t totally ignore new 700. Between my brother and I we have eight 700 rifles in past three years that with two changes will shoot sub moa. The two changes are replace factory trigger with Timney trigger ($125) and drop into a Boyd’s laminate stock. ( prairie hunter $125).

Four of these we for grand kids and and we were starting with ADL with factory light barrel for $300 sale price (then $50 Remington rebate) two were .223 two were .243. Basically $500 for sub moa rifle in kids choice of stock color.

We both then did heavy barrel 308 varmint then 6.5 CM for ourselves. I bought my 308 on sale (400 plus tax then minus $50 rebate) intending to twist off barrel and rebarrel to 6.5CM. I decided to play with the 308 before rebarreling so I added a Timney trigger and the base, rings and scope I purchased for my first 1000 yard rifle. Dropped it into olderFajen stock I had that just fits me. The resulting .308 is most accurate rifle I have owned. I believe it will consistently shoot about .4 moa. I have shot a lot of 1.2 to 1.3 inch 300 yard groups in calm wind. The two 100 yard under .25 inch groups (5 shots) I shot are luck but my first so I’m happy. There is no way I’m switching that barrel out (which is why I bought another in 6.5CM)

 

[StevieP]

OP - what do YOU like and dis-like about your three original contenders from Mossberg, Ruger, and Savage? Have you whittled it down, or added others (Rem700, Tikka, etc.)? When it comes right down to it, you won't really decide. It'll be a foregone conclusion (to YOU, for YOUR reasons), and the obvious answer will rise to the top of your list.

Your reason for keeping it to .308 is sound (have other rifles chambered in it). My next rifle will be 6.5, but as I stand I have a .308 AR, and the Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in .308, so I'm with you (for now).

Now, about optics....

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I built a .308 AR a few years ago. I didn't even consider 6.5 Creedmoor, but wish I had. If I ever change the barrel out I'll 'upgrade'.

 

[mac1911]

Yes, but you have to spend the bucks on ELD / VLD projectiles and they have to be loaded 'hot'. Maybe not optimum for someone just getting into this? Just curious what factory loads get you 2710 fps from .308 (edit- with 168 grn projectiles)? That's going to be pretty close to max load for most IMR and Hodgdon powders.

Not being critical- I would actually like to shoot 308 at 1000 if I can get the elevation from the rifles I would shoot. I think ~38 or 39 MOA elevation, so a 20 MOA scope mount would be probably be necessary. I reload, so no issues making what I need.

Paging @mac1911 , how high would my rear iron sight need to be? M1A, Garand, Springfield...

Just break out the magnify glass there’s a ballistic calculator on the Left side of 2 of those rifles for GI calculations.
Unless your running some extreme swings in velocity and bullet weight the basic come ups will get you darn close at least in the black. 100-1000 yards.

If your using some hot 155s in the “safe” zone for the garand your going to need 42 “clicks” or so.
I have zero experience on the 1903 rear sight but the 03a3 has about 35 minutes of total adjustment. With each yardage increment increasing from about 1.5moa to 4 moa between steps.
Will this get you in the 10 ring, no will it get you close enough to dial in yup, remeber the high power target at 1000 yards has 44” aiming black And a 10” X ring or 1 MOA
On the 22lr note
If your putting 22lr through one hole (.22”) at 50 yards or .4ish MOA I hope (wind not accounting) your splashing less than 10” at 200 yards. You should be splashing the X ring, fun stuff

 

[Mountain]

Just break out the magnify glass there’s a ballistic calculator on the Left side of 2 of those rifles for GI calculations.
Unless your running some extreme swings in velocity and bullet weight the basic come ups will get you darn close at least in the black. 100-1000 yards.

If your using some hot 155s in the “safe” zone for the garand your going to need 42 “clicks” or so.
I have zero experience on the 1903 rear sight but the 03a3 has about 35 minutes of total adjustment. With each yardage increment increasing from about 1.5moa to 4 moa between steps.
Will this get you in the 10 ring, no will it get you close enough to dial in yup, remeber the high power target at 1000 yards has 44” aiming black And a 10” X ring or 1 MOA
On the 22lr note
If your putting 22lr through one hole (.22”) at 50 yards or .4ish MOA I hope (wind not accounting) your splashing less than 10” at 200 yards. You should be splashing the X ring, fun stuff

Thanks-

I think the 1903 has enough to get there. If I figure out the MOA, I have an original PJ O'Hare sight mic with MOA markings.

 

[slap shot]

Right, but you must have heard the phrase: "The difference between theory and practice is bigger in practice than it is in theory."



He's talking about actual rifles in in actual real life, or practice, not the math of what a minute of angle is.

The fact that he can get sub MOA groups at 200 yards is absolutely relevant, but it's not *all* the data. Does it do sub MOA at 600Y? 1,000Y? 50Y?

you miss my point, but honestly, i don't care anymore lol

if you need to say sub MOA out to some max distance, at least that makes sense...

 

[weekendracer]

Guess im not up on the proper saying. What should I call a legitimate cloverleaf at 200 yards?

Damn fine shooting, regardless of the rifle used.

 

[mac1911]

Thanks-

I think the 1903 has enough to get there. If I figure out the MOA, I have an original PJ O'Hare sight mic with MOA markings.

Should be plenty

 

[mac1911]

Thanks-

I think the 1903 has enough to get there. If I figure out the MOA, I have an original PJ O'Hare sight mic with MOA markings.

As long as your talking irons and NRA high power targets the “come ups” will get you there.

 

[GLOCK-22]

OP - what do YOU like and dis-like about your three original contenders from Mossberg, Ruger, and Savage? Have you whittled it down, or added others (Rem700, Tikka, etc.)? When it comes right down to it, you won't really decide. It'll be a foregone conclusion (to YOU, for YOUR reasons), and the obvious answer will rise to the top of your list.

Your reason for keeping it to .308 is sound (have other rifles chambered in it). My next rifle will be 6.5, but as I stand I have a .308 AR, and the Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in .308, so I'm with you (for now).

Now, about optics....

I kinda like them all so I guess I will just do this

Get the Mossberg MVP LC in 5.56 so it take and uses AR mags and ammo

Get the Savage 10 fcp-sr 308 in a MDT TAC 21 Chassis so I can stick with the 308 ammo

And will pick one of these
Remington XM2010 300 win mag or
Savage 110ba Stealth 300 wm if I like the Savage 308 MDT TAC 21

Thank you for the help the only problem with the help is I was going to buy one gun now I am buying 3.

 

[mac1911]

How much better are those style riffles over a $600 savage bolt action in 308 with "Accu trigger" and "AccuStock"

Im going to talk out my arse and say , not much.
Other than some adjustability and realestate to stick more stuff on.
The chassis system might hold up better to heavy bipod pressure?
A few of these rifles are still missing the adjustments I often need.
I always need some horizontal adjustment on the comb of my rifles. If they where legal in cmp games matches my garand and such would have an adjustable comb and butt plate for cant. I would also play with the pitch of the stock also, as far as I can tell non of the OPs choices have these adjustments.

 

[PatMcD]

When any conversation is started with "Which one is best for long range shooting", it tells me the person asking has never done any long range shooting or even any mid-range shooting. If that person has unlimited money, then by all means buy whatever rifle you want for a sport you've never really had much, if any, experience in. But for the other 98%, you are way better off using whatever rifle you already have and see if you can master it out to 300 yards (think AR15). That same AR will get you to 600 no problem. After doing that, if 600 and beyond is what you want to concentrate on, get a specialized rig.

It's like saying "I'm thinking about getting a boat. Which one of these sailboats should I buy that would be capable of winning the America's Cup?"

My thoughts on calibers;
308-it will do anything you want out to 1000 yards (30-06 would extend that just a bit).
300WM-it will be the rifle you love because a SEAL sniper once used it, but you rarely shoot because ammo cost, muzzle blast, and recoil do not make it enjoyable to use.
6.5CM-as much as all the haters dislike it because it's the new fad, it's an excellent target round because you can get excellent target ammo off the shelf.

There are at least 20 other calibers that fit the bill, but you will need to handload because you won't find the ammo at any store.

Don't shoot large game at long range unless you are 100% sure you will kill it humanely. Just don't do it.

And MOA is a real, and at the same time, also theoretical measurement. Beyond a certain yardage, and that changes with every shooter, the rifle will still shoot to a certain MOA (1/2, 1, 1.5, whatever), but the shooter's ability usually can't hold to the same standard.

 

[milktree]

you miss my point, but honestly, i don't care anymore lol

if you need to say sub MOA out to some max distance, at least that makes sense...

Right, your phrasing makes sense too.

But there ARE rifles that will shoot a smaller group (measured in MOA) at a longer range than at a shorter range.

So, something like, “1.5 MOA at 100y, and .75 MOA at 1,000y” isn’t impossible, and happens often enough that people recognize it as a thing that happens.

I just made up the numbers, they’re just for illustration.

 

[Noreaster]

Curious, where are you guys shooting 1000 + yards? Longest i have shot was at a 300yd range, i know there are a couple 600yd ranges around, but its usually a special trip or event to go to them. ( devens for example, and i think reading )

 

[PatMcD]

Right, your phrasing makes sense too.

But there ARE rifles that will shoot a smaller group (measured in MOA) at a longer range than at a shorter range.

So, something like, “1.5 MOA at 100y, and .75 MOA at 1,000y” isn’t impossible, and happens often enough that people recognize it as a thing that happens.

I just made up the numbers, they’re just for illustration.

Maybe, but I'm going to get even more language-technical on you: There are RIFLE/AMMO pairings that will allow the shooter to shoot smaller groups at a longer range than at a shorter range. For instance, a 52 grain, flat base 223 round might shoot 1/4 or even 1/8 MOA at 100 yards because that is what it's meant to do, but at 600 yards, that same round might be a theoretical 12 MOA because it just can't hold up in the slightest breeze.
A .223 80 grain load might be .75 MOA at 600 or 1000, but I bet it's the same at 100 also. There is no physical way a large group at 100 will magically decide after a certain yardage that it is going to tighten up. If it starts at 1 MOA, it is never going to get better than 1 MOA. The 80 grain bullet will be less prone to deteriorate in it's accuracy at longer ranges because that is what it's meant to do: buck the wind.

 

[JRT]

Curious, where are you guys shooting 1000 + yards? Longest i have shot was at a 300yd range, i know there are a couple 600yd ranges around, but its usually a special trip or event to go to them. ( devens for example, and i think reading )

When I jumped in to long range shooting I took a class at Sig Academy and we used the 1000 yard range. Anybody interested in long range should seriously check out the class, I think it was called reaching for 1000. You progress out to a thousand yards as you build skills. I have 1000s of rounds of experience at 600 but I still learned so much in the progression from 400 to 1000. I don’t know if there is any way to get access without taking a program though. You could certainly start by looking at Sig.

 

[Brewer]

My thoughts on calibers;
308-it will do anything you want out to 1000 yards (30-06 would extend that just a bit).
300WM-it will be the rifle you love because a SEAL sniper once used it, but you rarely shoot because ammo cost, muzzle blast, and recoil do not make it enjoyable to use.
6.5CM-as much as all the haters dislike it because it's the new fad, it's an excellent target round because you can get excellent target ammo off the shelf.

There are at least 20 other calibers that fit the bill, but you will need to handload because you won't find the ammo at any store.

What are your summary thoughts on 338 Lapua and 50 BMG?

 

[JRT]

What are your summary thoughts on 338 Lapua and 50 BMG?

Not PatMcD obviously and I don’t have a 10th of his knowledge but that won’t stop me!

338 is the same points he listed above for the 300 WinMag. Bigger recoil and muzzle blast can all effect shooting, and expensive. Yesterday I said not to worry about barrel wear but in the magnum calibers, throat and barrel wear has to be considered.

The 50BMG belongs on tanks, river boats, APC and CoD. It’s a terribly inaccurate cartridge that has been glamorized by Mr Barrett.

 

[northny]

Yes, but you have to spend the bucks on ELD / VLD projectiles and they have to be loaded 'hot'. Maybe not optimum for someone just getting into this? Just curious what factory loads get you 2710 fps from .308 (edit- with 168 grn projectiles)? That's going to be pretty close to max load for most IMR and Hodgdon powders.

First, I'm running a 26 inch barrel, so that is getting me some additional fps (maybe 200?) over a 24" barrel. Loads are IMR 4064 and below max and/ or below compressed loads. But my sweet spot load was best in group size and lowest SD in speed and below highest load tested (which was also below max.)

My go to load used Hornady Match 168 BTHP (#30501) and last batch was 2714 fps SD 6.0 over 10 shots (i am intentionally leaving out other details of load, as what is safe in my rifle may not be in another). I had better results with these bullets than the ELDs, but likely because I did not find optimum OAL for seating ELDs.

The dial up for 1012 yards would have been 37.7 inches, ( this is actual DOPE and about 5% below what Ballistic AE app called for)

 

[Mountain]

First, I'm running a 26 inch barrel, so that is getting me some additional fps (maybe 200?) over a 24" barrel. Loads are IMR 4064 and below max and/ or below compressed loads. But my sweet spot load was best in group size and lowest SD in speed and below highest load tested (which was also below max.)

My go to load used Hornady Match 168 BTHP (#30501) and last batch was 2714 fps SD 6.0 over 10 shots (i am intentionally leaving out other details of load, as what is safe in my rifle may not be in another). I had better results with these bullets than the ELDs, but likely because I did not find optimum OAL for seating ELDs.

The dial up for 1012 yards would have been 37.7 inches, ( this is actual DOPE and about 5% below what Ballistic AE app called for)

Nice load results, especially that SD at 6.0! I'll have to look, I think best I could get from Varget was ~7-ish. For others to note, SD / ES won't amount to much at 300 yards or less, but can make a significant difference at true 'long' distances. Nice performance from the projectiles is pretty good with that 37.7 dial up. I think Hornady's published G1 ballistic coefficient must be conservative or spot on, and Sierra's might be a bit on the generous side.

OP, if this all looks like Greek at this point- the info is out there for you to research. Not that I'm anywhere close to where I need to be at long distance, but success comes from getting all of these dialed in: 1) shooting technique, 2) load development whether reloads or factory, 3) knowing your DOPE and how to properly compensate for varying conditions, and finally 4) the rifle. You have to have each of these elements nailed down in order before the next one matters.

You can have a lot of fun at shorter distances, but FYI simply hitting plates at 200 to 300 yards isn't particularly challenging- you need to check groups on paper.

 

[northny]

Ok I’m going to do it. I’ve thought several times I should do a post on a nimrods guide to getting to 1000 yards, the learnings and mistakes I made along the way. Save some other guy or gal some headaches and / or $. I’ll try to get it done next week.

 

[M1911]

Thank you for the help the only problem with the help is I was going to buy one gun now I am buying 3.

When someone asks a “should I buy gun X or Y” on NES, our default answer is usually “yes”

 

[drgrant]

Sounds like the OP is building a nice safe dust-collector, given that he doesn't seem to really know what he wants, and odds seem to dictate that he'll probably never shoot it over 300 yards. (because basically in new england you have to be anointed by christ himself to be allowed to shoot past 300 yards, not that its a bad thing, given the moonbats everywhere). It'll either end up in the back of the safe or on a consignment rack in a year or two.

Also the fact that the OP hasn't mentioned how much he wants to put into glass is pretty disturbing. That literally makes or breaks that kind of rifle,
IMHO. If I set cash on fire and have a halfway decent rifle with great glass on it, it's likely still fun to shoot. On the other hand, the best rifle in the world with shitty glass on it will literally never get used, even if its intrinsically capable of .00000000048 MOA or some crazy shit, none of that matters if you can't see anything or its annoying to get a good sight picture, it'll quickly get relegated to dust collector status.

Yes, I am going to be "that guy" in this thread. I know because I used to be one of those gun guys that just set cash on fire because "I thought I needed a 308 sniper rifle" or some shit like that.... Not doing the legwork yourself on these sorts of things just sets someone up for despair, or on a good day, a pile full
of "meh".

-Mike

 

[PatMcD]

What are your summary thoughts on 338 Lapua and 50 BMG?

If someone has the money for rifle and ammo, then they may do as they please, but I would never recommend either caliber for anything. I'm going to step on a few toes with this, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say 80% of people who buy a rifle in either caliber do so just so they can say "I have a 50" or "I have a 338 Lapua", or have to be that guy who has to make the loudest noise at the range. Nobody, and I mean nobody who is a serious target shooter uses either caliber.

But, if someone really has that itch and is looking to buy one, I'd have to ask, what is your experience shooting any rifle? At what range? How well do you score? If you can't do it with a 223 at 300, you sure as hell ain't going to do it with a 338 at 1500. "it's the Indian, not the arrow".

 

[M1911]

My thoughts on calibers;
308-it will do anything you want out to 1000 yards (30-06 would extend that just a bit).
300WM-it will be the rifle you love because a SEAL sniper once used it, but you rarely shoot because ammo cost, muzzle blast, and recoil do not make it enjoyable to use.

A fellow that I know has a Blazer in 300WM. I think he got it for elk hunting. He brought it to a shoot once and let people shoot it. I passed. It had a ton of muzzle blast and recoil. It appeared to be similar to shooting a 12 gauge with slugs, which I find painful enough from a bench that I’m done within 5 shots. No thank you very much.

 

[JRT]

A fellow that I know has a Blazer in 300WM. I think he got it for elk hunting. He brought it to a shoot once and let people shoot it. I passed. It had a ton of muzzle blast and recoil. It appeared to be similar to shooting a 12 gauge with slugs, which I find painful enough from a bench that I’m done within 5 shots. No thank you very much.

Who buys a Blazer, that was the first sign. I see the attraction in Europe where each firearm is registered so you can keep buying barrels and bolt sets but here it’s a waste.

If I recall 12 gauge slugs and 338 LM are both in the 28 to 30 foot pounds of recoil range. I have no desire to shoot that 80 to 100 times in a long range course of fire.

 

[M1911]

Who buys a Blazer, that was the first sign. I see the attraction in Europe where each firearm is registered so you can keep buying barrels and bolt sets but here it’s a waste.

The same guy who puts a $3,000 Swarovski scope on a rifle and who doesn’t blink at the cost of 300WM rounds.

The straight-pull bolt on the Blazer is wicked fast by the way, so that you can maximize the pain in your shoulder.

 

[JRT]

The same guy who puts a $3,000 Swarovski scope on a rifle and who doesn’t blink at the cost of 300WM rounds.

The straight-pull bolt on the Blazer is wicked fast by the way, so that you can maximize the pain in your shoulder.

I get the $3000 Swarovski completely. I love their glass and was about to buy one for my set up. Instead I was talked into this Vortex HD. I just bought a Leupold to replace it...

 

[M1911]

Which Leupold and how does it compare to the Vortex? I was under the impression that Vortex is a lot of glass for the $.

 

[AHM]

Spoiler: I'd go with the AR

Real optics instead of short radius iron sights,
and the brass burns on the Uzi guy's face look painful.

ETA:

"it's the Indian, not the arrow".

A. A. Nadiadwala says, "that's raycis".