Which 9mm jhp should i buy?

[fencer]

instead of telling them why they shouldn't, I'd ask why they should. What problem does it solve?

Respectfully.... 40 cal does a better job at barrier penetration than 9mm and much better than .45acp. So, if your target was in a vehicle the 40 offers a slight advantage.
Sure, in a small gun, it is obnoxious. But in a full size, or mid mid size, the recoil is basically the same as a 45. I own a 220 and a 226 in 40 and can not tell the difference.

.45 acp is still my favorite caliber, and most of my carry guns are in 9mm, but the 40 hate grows stale.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Respectfully.... 40 cal does a better job at barrier penetration than 9mm and much better than .45acp. So, if your target was in a vehicle the 40 offers a slight advantage.
Sure, in a small gun, it is obnoxious. But in a full size, or mid mid size, the recoil is basically the same as a 45. I own a 220 and a 226 in 40 and can not tell the difference.

.45 acp is still my favorite caliber, and most of my carry guns are in 9mm, but the 40 hate grows stale.

That's a fair counter. (Not a hater, personally)

 

[Rat187]

Here my other bd gift, gucci wallet from the wife , look like i been a good boy. Too bad this wallet will be empty most of the time lol.

Bruh you need to up your Gucci game

 

[PappyM3]

Respectfully.... 40 cal does a better job at barrier penetration than 9mm and much better than .45acp. So, if your target was in a vehicle the 40 offers a slight advantage.
Sure, in a small gun, it is obnoxious. But in a full size, or mid mid size, the recoil is basically the same as a 45. I own a 220 and a 226 in 40 and can not tell the difference.

.45 acp is still my favorite caliber, and most of my carry guns are in 9mm, but the 40 hate grows stale.

It may still be better than 9mm for penetration, but I bet modern bullets level the playing field. Similarly to before with modern JHP making 9mm more feasible in defensive shootings, bullets like the LeHigh XD dramatically increase 9mm barrier penetration while maintaining FBI penetration specs on the other side. Totally ignoring possible wounding benefits of the XD and only looking at penetration numbers on the other side of barriers. But I haven’t seen .40 LeHigh XD barrier/gel testing to compare. So .40 may still have an edge when using the same bullet selection.

 

[kalash]

A typical 9mm does not have the same amount of energy as a typical 40. To get anywhere near the energy of a 40, 9mm needs to go faster thus the +P. The recoil of a +P round is a lot more than a typical range-quality 9mm.

For self-defense against human assailants, energy doesn't matter. If a 9mm round and a .40 round are both designed to reliably penetrate to the same depth and fully expand, then all the extra energy gets you is additional recoil without any benefits. You might be able to make a case for the .45 because it makes the largest holes but honestly it's hard to pick anything outside of 9mm in semi-auto handguns for concealed carry.



Can't help but chuckle at all the barrier penetration comments. Having seen a number of NES-ers shoot, the chances of y'all needing to shoot though any type of barrier are far less than the chances of you not being able to shoot a larger caliber (or anything over .22 to be honest) accurately under stress.

 

[weekendracer]

Can't help but chuckle at all the barrier penetration comments. Having seen a number of NES-ers shoot, the chances of y'all needing to shoot though any type of barrier are far less than the chances of you not being able to shoot a larger caliber (or anything over .22 to be honest) accurately under stress.

A vehicle coming at you happens fast. Real fast.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

It may still be better than 9mm for penetration, but I bet modern bullets level the playing field

Wouldn't modern bullet enhancements apply equally to all calibers? For example, Winchester HST makes the same bullet for 9, 40, and 45 cartridges. Wouldn't the improved penetration and energy transfer characteristics apply to all calibers?

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Okay…? Did I say you needed to shoot +P 9mm?

My apologies, I should have been more clear: I was not referring to you when I wrote about +P. I was talking about a bunch of folks posting above on how they carry/recommend +P.

 

[PappyM3]

Wouldn't modern bullet enhancements apply equally to all calibers? For example, Winchester HST makes the same bullet for 9, 40, and 45 cartridges. Wouldn't the improved penetration and energy transfer characteristics apply to all calibers?

I’ll start off with, if you like .40 s&w, cool. Enjoy. Or, if 40 s&w is all someone can get, then go for it. It’s just not my recommendation if one has a choice because it doesn’t have many benefits.

As for your question: Usually, but sometimes not. Sometimes manufacturers just translate the bullet design directly over, without considering the velocity/mass/penetration differences. And it can easily lead to over expansion and under penetration when directly translating a bullet to a more powerful load without redesigning the bullet.

But a good quality 9mm JHP compared to an equally good quality .40 S&W JHP will not have a noticeable difference in terminal ballistics in human tissue. The 9mm with good ammo easily and reliably meets the higher end of the FBI penetration depths. 9mm and .40 are going to be within an inch of each other in tissue/gel. So, the .40 may get 5% deeper penetration.

So, they will both penetrate pretty much the same.

As far as expansion, looking at HST, the .40 only gets about 0.05”-0.08” wider expansion. About 11% better expansion. But those bullets still need to hit a vital organ. Will 0.648” hole or 0.723” hole make a difference in whether you hit an organ or not?

Now the extra energy in tissue. Neither produce enough to cause tearing of tissue. All the impressive temporary stretch cavities or tearing you see in gel tests doesn’t actually result in human tissue damage, for most organs. All these two calibers do is crush damage as they punch through. So, they’re essentially equal here. The extra energy just translates into the very slight advantages above.

But now let’s talk about felt recoil:
With the same weight gun, a .40 s&w has:
~100% greater recoil energy than 9mm
~40% greater recoil velocity than 9mm

~45% greater recoil energy than 9mm+p
~20% greater recoil velocity than 9mm+p

Those are sizeable increases in recoil and snappiness when the only benefit you get is a 0.075” bigger hole.

Nevermind the easier and faster follow up shots and potential for more capacity.

But as mentioned, barrier penetration is one area where it clearly beats 9mm. But 9mm has options that are still effective.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

But now let’s talk about felt recoil:
With the same weight gun, a .40 s&w has:
~100% greater recoil energy than 9mm
~40% greater recoil velocity than 9mm

~45% greater recoil energy than 9mm+p
~20% greater recoil velocity than 9mm+p

Can you point me to some research on these numbers? Seems like an area I'd like to research.

 

[kalash]

Wouldn't modern bullet enhancements apply equally to all calibers? For example, Winchester HST makes the same bullet for 9, 40, and 45 cartridges. Wouldn't the improved penetration and energy transfer characteristics apply to all calibers?

Define "improved penetration". If a 9mm HST meets FBI standards, wouldn't "improved penetration" just result in over penetration? There's no challenge in making a bullet that goes really deep - the challenge is to tailor each round to penetrate to a specific depth range. HST, for example, meets that depth in all calibers so what does the "improved penetration" of .40 offer you, when both .40 and 9mm have been carefully tailored to essentially have the same penetration? This is why energy, stopping power, etc are meaningless in these discussions - they don't give you any useful info; just focus on penetration and expansion tests.

 

[PappyM3]

Can you point me to some research on these numbers? Seems like an area I'd like to research.

Those percentages were using light bullet for caliber loads for both. Trying to keep variables in check: 115gr vs 155gr. The differences can be narrower if you compare different bullets, say a heavy bullet in one caliber vs a light bullet in another caliber.

The recoil energy is kind of how much push you feel, and the recoil velocity translates to snappiness.

Here is one reference for east viewing:

Handgun Recoil Table

I just used the above table, so if you do any calculations and find out my numbers were crap, I’d be happy to listen.

And a couple calculators if you want to play around:

ShootersCalculator.com | Recoil Calculator

An online calculator that calculates the recoil energy, impulse, and velocity of a firearm according to the firearm's weight, powder charge, bullet weight, and bullet muzzle velocity.

shooterscalculator.com

Firearms Recoil Calculator

Calculate the recoil for a rifle based on its weight and ammunition

bisonballistics.com

Sorry, thread drift and random place for the data dump, but I previously did some calculations for some of my long guns and possible purchases. I think it’s interesting how much gun weight influences felt recoil. I also think it’s interesting how much f***ing hurt a magnum Turkey load gives the shooter. Worse than a magnum bear slug.

Mossberg 500 - 12 Gauge (7lbs)
3" Hevi-shot Magnum Turkey Blend
-- Bullet weight: 875gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 1200 fps
-- Powder charge: 34gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 5.42 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 24.9 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 67.44 ft/lb

3" Brenneke Black Magic Magnum
-- Bullet weight: 602gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 1502 fps
-- Powder charge: 30gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 4.68 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 21.51 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 50.35 ft/lb

2 3/4" Federal LE Hydra-Shok Rifled Slug
-- Bullet weight: 438gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 1300fps
-- Powder charge: 26gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 3.11 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 14.27 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 22.16 ft/lb

LMT MARS-H - 6.5 CM (9.5 lbs)
143gr ELD-X
-- Bullet weight: 143 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 2500 fps
-- Powder charge: 33 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 2.32 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 7.86 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 9.11 ft/lb

Browning BLR - 6.5 CM (5.5 lbs)
143gr ELD-X
-- Bullet weight: 143 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 2640 fps
-- Powder charge: 33 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 2.41 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 14.09 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 16.97 ft/lb (12.66 with 7.375lb rifle)

Browning BLR - 375 Raptor (5.5 lbs)
250gr TTSX Supers
-- Bullet weight: 250 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 2200 fps
-- Powder charge: 44 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 3.42 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 20 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 34.19 ft/lb (25.5 with 7.375 lb rifle)

400gr Expanding Subs
-- Bullet weight: 400 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 1000 fps
-- Powder charge:12 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 2.04 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 11.95 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 12.2 ft/lb (9.1 with 7.375 lb rifle)

AR GPC (8 lbs)
77gr TMK
-- Bullet weight: 77 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 2602 fps
-- Powder charge: 24.5 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 1.43 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 5.77 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 4.13 ft/lb

AR PDW - 300BLK (6.5 lbs)
110 gr TTSX
-- Bullet weight: 110 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 2040 fps
-- Powder charge: 16 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 1.35 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 6.69 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 4.52 ft/lb

194 gr Expanding Sub
-- Bullet weight: 194 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 1050 fps
-- Powder charge: 8.3 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 1.09 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 5.39 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 2.93 ft/lb

HK SP5 - 9mm (5.5 lbs)
90gr Xtreme Defender
-- Bullet weight: 90 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 1634 fps
-- Powder charge: 6 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 0.79 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 4.6 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 1.81 ft/lb

147gr FMJ
-- Bullet weight: 147 gr
-- Bullet Velocity: 1070 fps
-- Powder charge: 5 gr
-- Recoil Impulse: 0.81 lbs/sec
-- Recoil Velocity: 4.73 fps
-- Recoil Energy: 1.92 ft/lb

 

[kalash]

A vehicle coming at you happens fast. Real fast.

Exactly. How fast is your draw? lol

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

here's an good test of 9v40v45 with a single brand(HST). The results showed that 9mm penetrated more of the solid objects than the others so the claim that 40 penetrates better than 9 in solids is suspect. Also, 40 and 45 carried penetrated more than 9mm in both gel scenarios:

 

[PappyM3]

here's an good test of 9v40v45 with a single brand(HST). The results showed that 9mm penetrated more of the solid objects than the others so the claim that 40 penetrates better than 9 in solids is suspect. Also, 40 and 45 carried penetrated more than 9mm in both gel scenarios:

How many 2x4s a bullet penetrates isn’t really a worthwhile barrier penetration test. Unless you plan to compete in a shooting match where the goal is to see how much wood you can shoot through.

There are two types of barrier testing that should be conducted, though some variations work too.

1. Shooting through an expected barrier with gel behind it to see terminal performance after passing through the barrier. Say, shooting through a car door or windshield, or through clothing to see how much the fabric gums up a JHP. Substitute materials can definitely be used to simulate car doors and such though.

2. Shoot rounds at a barrier until that barrier is destroyed. This is useful for military scenarios where you want to see how many rounds from a machine gun will destroy that brick or cinder block cover.

Also note with his testing though, that clear gel is not the same as normal ballistics gel. It is easier to work with, but generally you will see greater penetration in clear gel than normal ballistics gel. And a 12.x” penetration in clear gel is almost certainly going to be a failed penetration depth in actual calibrated FBI standard ballistics gel.

 

[paul73]

just read that

An Official Journal Of The NRA | 10mm vs. .40 S&W: Similarities, Differences and Uses

Both the 10mm and the .40 S&W use a .40-caliber projectile and were developed around the same time, but there are big differences between the two. Here's the rundown.

www.shootingillustrated.com

 

[vcman]

Bruh you need to up your Gucci game

My old man was a hiend goldsmith, back in the day if i want to i could get a golden chain like that with out too much trowble lol. Just that i want a golden gun , with diamonds in the grip, just like them guns those drug dealer cartels boss have, maybe some day .

 

[Rat187]

My old man was a hiend goldsmith, back in the day if i want to i could get a golden chain like that with out too much trowble lol. Just that i want a golden gun , with diamonds in the grip, just like them guns those drug dealer cartels boss have, maybe some day .

LOL...Back in the 'day' in country you would have been driving a a 50 cc motorbike and named 'Tony' with a 'boom-boom' girl on the back and cruising MSR 1 for in the bush hook-ups, and all the gold would have been stored in tooth currency. I sure your Pop was able to bribe his way out of the commie paradise after the war because he was a jeweler. Follow your dreams

 

[G4Y4HK]

LOL...Back in the 'day' in country you would have been driving a a 50 cc motorbike and named 'Tony' with a 'boom-boom' girl on the back and cruising MSR 1 for in the bush hook-ups, and all the gold would have been stored in tooth currency. I sure your Pop was able to bribe his way out of the commie paradise after the war because he was a jeweler. Follow your dreams

Mr Bullion, that you?

 

[drgrant]

Respectfully.... 40 cal does a better job at barrier penetration than 9mm and much better than .45acp. So, if your target was in a vehicle the 40 offers a slight advantage.

Not consistently. 40 also has the faggy "bullet taking a left turn at Albuquerque" thing after it goes through laminated glass problem, with some loadings. (More recent bonded cores do better, but that's only a portion of the market) 40 sucked enough at this at one point that's why people were jerkin it over 357 sig, because it fixed that problem while allowing others to jerk off over the energy levels lol.

 

[Rat187]

 

[PappyM3]

To reiterate the point about needing to hit vital organs with pistol rounds, I present this image. No vital organ, not out of the fight.

 

[fencer]

Not consistently. 40 also has the faggy "bullet taking a left turn at Albuquerque" thing after it goes through laminated glass problem, with some loadings. (More recent bonded cores do better, but that's only a portion of the market) 40 sucked enough at this at one point that's why people were jerkin it over 357 sig, because it fixed that problem while allowing others to jerk off over the energy levels lol.

I get it man... you don't like .40. But the barrier I was mainly referring to was a car door. Massad Ayoob says that if things go sideways, it is likely that you will have to defend yourself against assailants in vehicles, so he recommends everyone own an AR-10. It is unlikely that you will be standing directly in front of a vehicle. Thats how you get run over.
In Paul Harrell's comparison video, he pointed out better splits with 40 than 45 because it has less recoil. Jerry Miculek has pointed out on video that his personal carry gun is a .40, and Hickock 45 points out that the 40 "hits a lot harder" on his steel targets than 9mm.
I am perplexed by your irrational hatred of a caliber. "Hurr Durr ..faggy...hurr durr excessive..annoying...punishment..durr dumb"
Did an ex trade one of your guns for a Kahr PM40, or something?

I shoot hand guns in .22 ,38 special, 357, 9mm, 40, 44 and 45 and I enjoy shooting them all. Recoil has never really bothered me because I learned how to shoot a pistol in boot with an ancient 1911. In a decent gun with a little weight to it, 40 is really no big deal. Does it recoil more than 9mm? Yep. But so do 357 mag, 45, and 44 mag

If you are going to hate a caliber, hate 32 acp or 41 mag or something. Or 455 Webley. But 40 has it's place.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

A vehicle coming at you happens fast. Real fast.

I guess it depends on your agency. We were taught to NOT shoot at moving vehicles. Someone on this board had a post years ago. I believe they were shooting at Sig Sauer. They commented about a vehicle windshield shoot where most all of the calibers went through but angled up to miss the target inside, except for the 5.7x28mm. That being the case, I hope that if I am in a vehicle being shot at that they are "only" using a 9mm through the glass.

 

[weekendracer]

I guess it depends on your agency. We were taught to NOT shoot at moving vehicles. Someone on this board had a post years ago. I believe they were shooting at Sig Sauer. They commented about a vehicle windshield shoot where most all of the calibers went through but angled up to miss the target inside, except for the 5.7x28mm. That being the case, I hope that if I am in a vehicle being shot at that they are "only" using a 9mm through the glass.

That's 180 degrees opposite of what I've seen and heard. Rounds angle into the driver's seat. My source USMS and a buddy actually shooting into a vehicle to test it, I saw the photos of the aftermath. They were shooting pretty much everything (rifles, pistols of various calibers) at the windshield and burned through half a dozen windshields. We were told flat out to get out of the seat if stopped and someone was putting rounds into the windshield.

I could shoot at whatever the threat was, if someone was driving at me, I could shoot the driver. Guy hanging out the window shooting with the vehicle not pointing at me, the shooter would be the target. I could not shoot to disable the vehicle. But yeah, Texas DPS could shoot tires until a few years ago at least, most places are different policies.

 

[weekendracer]

Found one of the pictures I've seen before. Those rounds are angling down, or at least not 'up'. I wish I had copies of the first hand testing they did. I was deployed to Texas when they did it or I'd have been there.

 

[fencer]

We were taught to NOT shoot at moving vehicles.

Why not? I mean assuming you have a valid reason.

 

[Mesatchornug]

View attachment 637078

Found one of the pictures I've seen before. Those rounds are angling down, or at least not 'up'. I wish I had copies of the first hand testing they did. I was deployed to Texas when they did it or I'd have been there.

Are these shots from inside?

 

[weekendracer]

Are these shots from inside?

I don't think so. I had a dozen of those types of pictures when I posted it, now I can't find them again, don't know what terms I used.

 

[kalash]

I believe rounds try to go perpendicular to the windshield. In other words, if you're inside shooting out, aim low; if you're outside shooting in, aim high.

But I could be wrong...