When The Cops Yell At You To "Drop The Gun", What Do You Do ???

meh said:
The body cam refutes that defense, IMHO. He could have seen it because he is a lefty, and he moved his right arm out of the way, giving his body cam, and obviously his own head, a clear line of sight to the gun. I'm not going to bother talking about what crime he arguably committed because there must be like a 99% chance that they'll decide it was reasonable in the moment, not because it actually was, rather because the bar for deciding otherwise is so high.
Click to expand...
Body cam is not the same line of sight as his eyes.
 
M1911 said:
Body cam is not the same line of sight as his eyes.
Click to expand...
That's why I pointed out that your argument was refuted not by the body cam image alone, rather by his arm position. Taken together, it clearly proves that his head has an unobstructed view. There is no plausible obstruction.
 
meh said:
That's why I pointed out that your argument was refuted not by the body cam image alone, rather by his arm position. Taken together, it clearly proves that his head has an unobstructed view. There is no plausible obstruction.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I don't see that.
 
M1911 said:
Sorry, but I don't see that.
Click to expand...
Well, you might be right. I was focused on the time when the partner gained control of his wrist. She (I think it's a she, who BTW, seemed fearless) may have still been trying to separate his hand from the gun because as he is hit with the first shot, it looks like he might have just withdrawn his left arm. Plausibly the reason for this is that he was still trying to hold on to it until he got shot. If she testifies to that, he's clear, though not a lot of people are going to realize that the mag dump may not have been something he could just stop on a dime once started.
 
They both effed up bad. They arrived on the site of a shooting and were worried about treating the wounded rather than securing the scene and finding the gun first. Then you hear people yelling that "he's got a gun and he's pointing it at people". That makes it sound like the kid is a threat and the kid is right there, just a few feet away. In hindsight, it seems like perhaps he wasn't a threat. But knowing what the cops knew at the time -- "he's pointing it at people"...

Back when I took a class from Randy Cain (who had previously been a police officer), he described the chaos -- sirens blaring, mothers screaming, babies crying, etc.
 
M1911 said:
But knowing what the cops knew at the time -- "he's pointing it at people"...
Click to expand...
That actually bothers me. Did they know that just because some jackass shouted it out? He's not doing it when they see him. What does it even mean? Was he pointing it at them like he was threatening to shoot them, or was he sweeping them? I understand that sometimes the intel is bad or misleading, and that is just the nature of the beast, but a lot of times you can point to bad intel as a factor in bad decision-making on the part of cops, e.g. when the California cops when weapons free on homeless guy with a bike lock in a department store and end up killing a kid behind a wall. When you get the opportunity to substitute direct observation for intel from unverified sources, maybe do it?
 
meh said:
That actually bothers me. Did they know that just because some jackass shouted it out? He's not doing it when they see him. What does it even mean? Was he pointing it at them like he was threatening to shoot them, or was he sweeping them? I understand that sometimes the intel is bad or misleading, and that is just the nature of the beast, but a lot of times you can point to bad intel as a factor in bad decision-making on the part of cops, e.g. when the California cops when weapons free on homeless guy with a bike lock in a department store and end up killing a kid behind a wall. When you get the opportunity to substitute direct observation for intel from unverified sources, maybe do it?
Click to expand...
What did they know when they got there? We don't know yet, but my guess is that they knew there had been a shooting (both from the 911 call plus the guy bleeding on the ground that they see). Who is the shooter? Where is the gun?

They hear: "he's got a gun and he's pointing it at people", then they see a guy with a gun in his hand. Would a reasonable man, knowing what they knew at the time, consider that person to be a threat? I think that's pretty likely. Should the deputy have waited another couple seconds before shooting? In retrospect, probably, but hindsight is 20-20. A person holding a gun at their side can bring it up and shoot within a second.
 
cops walk up and the guy in the purple shirt has a gun at his side, pointed down. One deputy starts to take it as other hollers "drop it drop it" and immediately begins shooting. no action by purple shirt to indicate he was about to aim and shoot at anyone. I think the cop probably gets away with it but I don't think he gave the guy time to comply or anything. Hell, if the guy had actually dropped the gun, the cop wouldn't have noticed and still filled him with holes.
 
I would have NOTHING in my hands under those circumstances. People with cell phones in hand were killed by responding cops. Adrenaline is flowing. Lots of it.
M1911 said:
The time required to make a decision was something that Ayoob covered in either LFI-1 or 2. There have been defensive shootings where the perp decides to leave, spins around, and was shot in the back before taking a step. They were a threat and then maybe not a threat in a fraction of a second, before the shooter could make the decision to stop firing.

But as I said, I don't think that's the case here. I think in this case the deputy simply couldn't see the kid's gun hand.

Don't have a gun in your hand when the cops roll up, because things can go sideways in a heartbeat.
Click to expand...
 
G4Y4HK said:
Cops are trained to think any civilian with a gun in hand is a deadly threat. A 'drop the gun' order is typically followed by a mag dump in less than 2 to 3 seconds afterwards. Blame adrenaline.

When you see and/or hear sirens roll up towards you, better to already be in 'compliant sheeple position' before the cops see you. gun dropped out of reach, kick it into a bush or something. Then interlace your fingers and put on top of your head and cross your feet while on your knees. Only then when a cop comes up at you with his own gun pointed at your face and barking orders at you, you may have a 25% chance of surviving the encounter. Survival probability goes up if you respond with YES MASSA.
Click to expand...
Your true colors seem to come out pretty quickly. I appreciate not having to guess.
 
www.dailymail.co.uk

Video shows Florida cop shoot suspect after brother was gunned down

The incident, which transpired August 6 outside the Heritage Hotel in Orlando, saw both brothers lives snuffed out - and saw the deputy placed on administrative lead pending an investigation.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

"Chilling moment Florida cop shoots dead gunman - despite the fact that he handed over his firearm to a fellow deputy: Fatal incident happened just moments after a third man killed the suspect's 21-year-old brother."

"In the footage, Richardson does not appear violent and even gives up the gun to the lady cop with his other arm outstretched toward the deputy as if to say 'Don't shoot' - but despite this is unloaded on, shot eight times by the officer."

This poor woman just lost both sons.

61815519-11155009-The_incident_which_transpired_Saturday_August_6_outside_the_Heri-m-24_1661739045484.jpg
 
More from the Daily Mail:

"In the statement, [lawyer Mark] NeJame went on to claim that the third man involved in the shooting was a 'known menace and danger' to the Heritage Hotel residents.

He insisted that Richardson had been holding his gun to provide protection to the first deputy on scene and the former EMT who was rendering aid to his brother, as the third man was still in the area.

According to the statement, the first deputy on the scene, the deputy's female partner, gave Richardson consent to do so and knew he was armed with a gun."
 
M1911 said:
They hear: "he's got a gun and he's pointing it at people", then they see a guy with a gun in his hand. Would a reasonable man, knowing what they knew at the time, consider that person to be a threat? I think that's pretty likely. Should the deputy have waited another couple seconds before shooting? In retrospect, probably, but hindsight is 20-20. A person holding a gun at their side can bring it up and shoot within a second.
Click to expand...

The deputy should have had the judgement to evaluate the situation in context.
 
mibro said:
He insisted that Richardson had been holding his gun to provide protection to the first deputy on scene and the former EMT who was rendering aid to his brother, as the third man was still in the area.

According to the statement, the first deputy on the scene, the deputy's female partner, gave Richardson consent to do so and knew he was armed with a gun."
Click to expand...

Oh boy.
 
This is why you carry a gun that is "drop safe".

And no, traditional 19ss without a series 80 safety, schwarz safety or others are not drop safe. Some manufacturers get their to pass drop testing with a heavy firing pin sprint and lightweight firing pin, but you're left trusting drop safety to the tolerance of these values rather than mechanical blocking.
 
i would be doing what the cop sez to do.
i WOULD try to drop it in a way that did not cause an accidental discharge
 
M1911 said:
They both effed up bad. They arrived on the site of a shooting and were worried about treating the wounded rather than securing the scene and finding the gun first. Then you hear people yelling that "he's got a gun and he's pointing it at people". That makes it sound like the kid is a threat and the kid is right there, just a few feet away. In hindsight, it seems like perhaps he wasn't a threat. But knowing what the cops knew at the time -- "he's pointing it at people"...

Back when I took a class from Randy Cain (who had previously been a police officer), he described the chaos -- sirens blaring, mothers screaming, babies crying, etc.
Click to expand...
I did several classes with Randy Cain in FL - good instructor.

With another instructor, we did "drop the gun" airsoft work. If you're not going to drop the gun, you gotta be fast and expect 50/50 odds.
 
M1911 said:
What did they know when they got there? We don't know yet, but my guess is that they knew there had been a shooting (both from the 911 call plus the guy bleeding on the ground that they see). Who is the shooter? Where is the gun?

They hear: "he's got a gun and he's pointing it at people", then they see a guy with a gun in his hand. Would a reasonable man, knowing what they knew at the time, consider that person to be a threat? I think that's pretty likely. Should the deputy have waited another couple seconds before shooting? In retrospect, probably, but hindsight is 20-20. A person holding a gun at their side can bring it up and shoot within a second.
Click to expand...
My point is that you don’t “know” something because someone says it. If he regarded the guy as a greater threat based on hearing that than if he hadn’t, and therefore shot him when he otherwise would not have, then that’s a problem, not a defense. Cops are not generally credulous people, but there are apparently contexts where they’ll believe anything and act on that belief.

The idea that he can raise the gun to become a threat is true enough, but for deadly force to be legal you need a reasonable belief that he is going to. I’m not seeing that. No question it is a dangerous situation.
 

Similar threads

What not to do with your new gun.
2
Replies
42
Views
1K
Coyote33
Coyote33
what do you all think about plastering your vehicle with pro-gun stickers?
2 3 4
Replies
109
Views
2K
Sterg
Sterg
Additional new caselaw affirms: the police and the courts believe cops are allowed to kill people
2 3
Replies
84
Views
1K
milktree
milktree
Can you guys tell me what this is?
Replies
7
Views
507
LittleCalm
L
Maine gets close to implementing 3 Day Wait Period and makes it illegal to do Paramilitary Training in the State
3 4 5
Replies
147
Views
4K
Devils Paintbrush
Devils Paintbrush
Back
Top Bottom