When do you OWN a gun?

[92G]

if willing to start thread then should be willing to out the dealer

 

[drgrant]

The distance was probably a factor but not prohibitive. I think I was annoyed when i spoke reasonably with them about credit for the wife's purchase and was told their "policy" was $50 processing NO exceptions. Once I saw they were not interested in working with me I just said "just refund my money. Keep the fifty, it will save me from ever having to drive there again" I dint threaten or cause a scene. Just left and called amex.

My original question was asked because Amex asked me if I had ever taken possession of the property. I dont think I have?

Was ownership/management involved in this or was it just salesdroids? Not saying you should have pulled a Karen on them, but just curious... if so, it kinda smells like a "customer service
disaster. " EG most people don't crap out on a delay, so this causes a lot of salespeople to divide by zero, then after they're done rebooting, they go to the policy.

-Mike

 

[wilson911]

Were you informed that the $50 was gone regardless?

Yes. Even for store credit it would be less the $50. For I gun I never owned, never returned and never even touched.

 

[wilson911]

if willing to start thread then should be willing to out the dealer

I actually came her to calibrate my response. I dont like dumping on a LGS. It seems that most of their business is directed toward MA customers so I will just avoid them....which should be easy since I almost never travel route 31 in greenville.

Was ownership/management involved in this or was it just salesdroids? Not saying you should have pulled a Karen on them, but just curious... if so, it kinda smells like a "customer service
disaster. " EG most people don't crap out on a delay, so this causes a lot of salespeople to divide by zero, then after they're done rebooting, they go to the policy.

-Mike

I hope it was a misunderstanding. I'm not the type to ask for management. I made my point, they were unwilling to do what I feel was an obvious win/win for both of us. And if they have a policy of charging before background and keeping $50 whatever the outcome, then i will vote with my dollars.

 

[MAGA99]

Oh boy, not good for the new store....

 

[wilson911]

Oh boy, not good for the new store....

Not good for me....used to like shopping there. Not every time, but frequently used to receive competent service. May be growing pains.....I've had much better luck at their smaller original location.

 

[fencer]

Did they void the transaction? Or issue a refund? The reason I ask...
They probably paid at least 3% processing fee. If they void the transaction, it costs them nothing. If they refund it, it costs another 5%.

So in round numbers on $1000 it would have cost them $80. If they voided the transaction there would be zero fees. I think a transaction can be voided for the first 24 hours, but an inexperienced clerk may have screwed up, and you shouldn't have to pay for it.

 

[wilson911]

Did they void the transaction? Or issue a refund? The reason I ask...
They probably paid at least 3% processing fee. If they void the transaction, it costs them nothing. If they refund it, it costs another 5%.

So in round numbers on $1000 it would have cost them $80. If they voided the transaction there would be zero fees. I think a transaction can be voided for the first 24 hours, but an inexperienced clerk may have screwed up, and you shouldn't have to pay for it.

I may have to start another thread on how amazing Amex customer service is. I called their number and a rep picks up the phone greeting me by my name. I beriefly explained the situation and she immediately avoided the transaction before it could post, confirmed that I never received the merchandise and flagged the vendors account for review. Two minutes after I hung up they sent me an email confirming a the details. Every now and then they remind me what I am paying a yearly fee for. I love you amex.

 

[EJFudd]

...which should be easy since I almost never travel route 31 in greenville.

Oh boy, not good for the new store....

But now not as surprising as I first thought.

 

[Nick Fury]

My post was more about the other questions that were raised, namely when do I actually own it and is it normal to be charged before they know they are even able to sell to me. I have never been charged before a got a Proceed (even at this store). I think it's a bad policy on their part, especially when I tried work with them.

Not from Mass but I cannot think of a single time where I paid for a firearm before getting a background check. I was with a friend once who got a denial (Total fiasco. Glad it’s over. Thank you Seth Hipple!) and he was charged $50 but a delay just means we can’t be bothered right now. Try again later.

I got a delay once. Three days later dealer had heard back nothing so he sold it to me. Strong 2A businessman.Was transferring a surplus gun every few weeks so I knew exactly where the delay originated from. Let’s just say any police interaction no matter how innocent can cause further review...

 

[FiremanBob]

You can't own it until it is transferred and logged out of the dealer's ATF inventory book. Not giving you a full refund is unforgivable, and unthinkable from my side of the counter. I'm glad you were able to get AMEX to take care of you.

 

[BrianWilson]

I dunno.
From the dealers perspective;
He does the BGC, goes thru, you back out, technically does he have a used gun?
You get delayed, want your money back so your wife can buy the gun..... straw purchase,no?
Keeping the fitty is lame as hell though.
I took a road trip to buy, brought the PIN from a previous license, didn't go thru, dude, wicked busy, 3 deep at the counter swamped at the time,( yeah, that place) instantly refunded me. Gave me a shitty look, which I richly deserved, but gave me all my dough back. Never seen me before but there was no hesitation, no doubt at all about the full refund.

 

[67ray]

Ownership =/= Posession.

If you've paid for the gun you've fulfilled part of a financial contract and own the gun, you just cannot posess it.

Yeah I would have turned that down as a straw purchase. I know likely its not, but from the FFL POV it's coming across as "Hey, I couldn't buy this so my wife is going to buy this" which is about as shady as it gets.

If you think it will help, you can submit a complaint to the AG for deceptive business practices.

You are mixing metaphors so to speak. If it really looked like a straw purchase then the FFL should denied the sale whether or not the BG check came back proceed or not. The issue is the $50 which is an arbitrary policy that FFL chose to have, even though it is BS.

I never understand why in posts like these the FFL is not named. We're adults, we can take the story for what it is and decide for ourselves if we want to patronize or not.
OP gets valuable opinions yet doesn't give back to membership.

 

[bfm]

As a LEO friend of mine used to say, "you do not own a gun till you know how the barrel tastes."

 

[strangenh]

Timeline wasnt meant to be snark. More humorous. I have a pretty good handle on my emotions and I am not worried about the $50.

The gun I git delayed on was literally the most common/cheap gun in every gun store. I'd bet they have 30 in stock. They were not put out at all by holding a gun for me. And in retrospect, it's their policy and they can keep the fifty bucks. Injust wont shop there anymore.

My post was more about the other questions that were raised, namely when do I actually own it and is it normal to be charged before they know they are even able to sell to me. I have never been charged before a got a Proceed (even at this store). I think it's a bad policy on their part, especially when I tried work with them.

All fair. Details matter in the question you're asking, too. Legally, you own something when title is in your name. (A closed loop definition.) With firearms, no doubt that is complicated. But we should not confuse transfer with ownership (guns someone legally owns cannot be transferred to them in some circumstances).

Honestly, with anything these days, it's a complicated question. Ask a farmer with a modern tractor about that.

Short version - you committed to buy and they seem to have committed you to the transaction. Straw purchase alarms make the practical solution (ok, transfer to that other person, then, since I "own" it) even more impractical. I think the $50 was extreme - most FFLs charge less than that here for a transfer, so...

 

[Thinking]

I dunno.
From the dealers perspective;
He does the BGC, goes thru, you back out, technically does he have a used gun?

Really? Ah no

 

[Tinkermatic]

Did they void the transaction? Or issue a refund? The reason I ask...
They probably paid at least 3% processing fee. If they void the transaction, it costs them nothing. If they refund it, it costs another 5%.

So in round numbers on $1000 it would have cost them $80. If they voided the transaction there would be zero fees. I think a transaction can be voided for the first 24 hours, but an inexperienced clerk may have screwed up, and you shouldn't have to pay for it.

You’re correct about the 24 hours. We process and void large, like tens of thousands of dollars large, credit card transactions without penalty. You typically have until your machine/processor batches out for the day. At our store, that’s midnight. They’re all set up this way in case when looking at daily transactions you catch a mistake. For instance, $2,500 instead of $250.
Sounds to me like the LGS stood by a policy meant to dissuade patrons from jerking them around on large and or special order purchases as your numbers are pretty spot on. Credit card fees are killers and that’s why they all offer perks for using them. Common sense should have prevailed in this situation, though it does seem a little murky with straw purchase concerns and what not.

 

[FrugalFannie]

the $50 "fee" is bullshit. I'm trying to remember if SO charges before the backround check. I think if you get delayed- in order for that to be "your gun" SO charges you for it and then calls you when it gets a proceed or you can go back in 3 days. Which makes sense as that serial number is on the 4473. trying to remember the order for 4Seasons as well. Been too long.

 

[MAGA99]

You are mixing metaphors so to speak. If it really looked like a straw purchase then the FFL should denied the sale whether or not the BG check came back proceed or not. The issue is the $50 which is an arbitrary policy that FFL chose to have, even though it is BS.

I never understand why in posts like these the FFL is not named. We're adults, we can take the story for what it is and decide for ourselves if we want to patronize or not.
OP gets valuable opinions yet doesn't give back to membership.

He named them. There is only one gun shop in Greenville NH, kinda across the street from the country mile.

 

[FrugalFannie]

Did they void the transaction? Or issue a refund? The reason I ask...
They probably paid at least 3% processing fee. If they void the transaction, it costs them nothing. If they refund it, it costs another 5%.

So in round numbers on $1000 it would have cost them $80. If they voided the transaction there would be zero fees. I think a transaction can be voided for the first 24 hours, but an inexperienced clerk may have screwed up, and you shouldn't have to pay for it.

Not in my experience. If I issued the refund as a business, there's no fee for either "transaction." If the customer disputes a charge, it's damaging to your "rating" and you can pay higher fees across the board as well as the original processing fee. Of course I never accepted AMEX so I don't know if they did this.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

Burn the shop down

 

[BREWINZ]

Doesn't sound like a glorious policy. I went there once. Never again.

 

[meh]

Not from Mass but I cannot think of a single time where I paid for a firearm before getting a background check.

Nor can I. Many a time I've been chatting with Brian at B&K, and after the paperwork is done, I'm ready to walk out of the store but realize (usually)--I haven't actually paid yet. Even though I forget, he doesn't, so it works out. Point is, it works out that way. The other way seems like trouble.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I may have to start another thread on how amazing Amex customer service is. I called their number and a rep picks up the phone greeting me by my name. I beriefly explained the situation and she immediately avoided the transaction before it could post, confirmed that I never received the merchandise and flagged the vendors account for review. Two minutes after I hung up they sent me an email confirming a the details. Every now and then they remind me what I am paying a yearly fee for. I love you amex.

I pay NO fees for any card and Amex has taken care of problems with zero hesitation. In those cases they were all fraudulent charges, not charge-backs.

The only charge-back I've done in the past 30 yrs was a HVAC scammer who screwed me last Spring and that was CitiCard and they took care of that as well.

Not from Mass but I cannot think of a single time where I paid for a firearm before getting a background check.

I guess you never bought at Sig Arms Academy Pro Shop. They charge you before running a background check. I know from 2 recent personal experiences. NH is slow on handguns, they recommend that you come back in an hour or so to get the gun.

As a LEO friend of mine used to say, "you do not own a gun till you know how the barrel tastes."

In case anyone wonders why I consider it "hazardous duty" to be anywhere near a police range or qualification!
<---- Retired LEO

 

[appraiser]

if you won't name the shop, name the town please

 

[wilson911]

if you won't name the shop, name the town please

I chose not to out the LGS because I support local merchants and i do not want to see any businesses in Greenville, NH adversely affected.

BTW.....if you read the thread, I have not been withholding this info.

 

[DecOFlaherty]

Thanks. Yes I actually did dispute with Amex. They refunded the withheld $50 while I was still sitting in the parking lot.

FWIW.....this is a LGS that I have done a lot of business with and have a decent reputation. I asked this here so I can assess the level of outrage I should feel.

This is why I love Amex.

 

[fishhawk357]

I have never been delayed myself but also have never paid before clearing BC. Only after getting the go from the check has the purchase actually proceeded and payment processed. Everyone that I know of that have been delayed only paid for purchase AFTER delay was cleared. Nobody ever paid before the BC cleared. This is the first instance I’ve heard of since BC started, as far back as I can remember anyway.

 

[42!]

Not agreeing with what the dealer did, but add this to what everyone is thinking. Someone gets a delay, cancels the sale and immediately says their wife will buy a gun with their money...... that's going to raise a flag with any dealer. Look at it from the dealers perspective, you could wait out the delay but instead you want to find a way to leave with it now. Personally, and I was an FFL way back, I would not have charged you, but I wouldn't be selling you or you wife anything, just not worth the risk of loosing my business, at least until you got a go on the check.

 

[Broc]

If you buy a gun, the gun shop charges you, then you get a delay/deny, did you ever own it?

The reason I ask: i got delayed today. But the dealer charged me before the approval. I got delayed. The transaction, never consummated, was ended dealer refunded my amex, but kept $50 for "processing".

Is that SOP? I've never been asked for payment before approval before.

If you are a business owner, is it worth it to you to keep the $50 and never have my business again (at least $3k over the last five years).

You never pay before the background check clears.