When do you OWN a gun?

[wilson911]

If you buy a gun, the gun shop charges you, then you get a delay/deny, did you ever own it?

The reason I ask: i got delayed today. But the dealer charged me before the approval. I got delayed. The transaction, never consummated, was ended dealer refunded my amex, but kept $50 for "processing".

Is that SOP? I've never been asked for payment before approval before.

If you are a business owner, is it worth it to you to keep the $50 and never have my business again (at least $3k over the last five years).

 

[Racenet]

To be blunt, that FFL is ripping you off. Dispute the charge with Amex.

 

[MAGA99]

Never been charged before a check that I can remember. 50 dollars for nothing is gay.

 

[CrackPot]

Personally I never require funds before the background goes through. I frequently accept payment, but that is different.

The other side of it is, would it be ok if the dealer sold the gun out from under you after the delay?

 

[wilson911]

To be blunt, that FFL is ripping you off. Dispute the charge with Amex.

Thanks. Yes I actually did dispute with Amex. They refunded the withheld $50 while I was still sitting in the parking lot.

FWIW.....this is a LGS that I have done a lot of business with and have a decent reputation. I asked this here so I can assess the level of outrage I should feel.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

If you buy a gun, the gun shop charges you, then you get a delay/deny, did you ever own it?

The reason I ask: i got delayed today. But the dealer charged me before the approval. I got delayed. The transaction, never consummated, was ended dealer refunded my amex, but kept $50 for "processing".

Is that SOP? I've never been asked for payment before approval before.

If you are a business owner, is it worth it to you to keep the $50 and never have my business again (at least $3k over the last five years).

f*** that first ask for the 50 back if not dispute with the card and NEVER go back to that place. Out the shop

 

[drgrant]

If you buy a gun, the gun shop charges you, then you get a delay/deny, did you ever own it?

The reason I ask: i got delayed today. But the dealer charged me before the approval. I got delayed. The transaction, never consummated, was ended dealer refunded my amex, but kept $50 for "processing".

Is that SOP? I've never been asked for payment before approval before.

Depends on the dealer, although most of the ones that move a lot of guns will do this because they don't want to burn up shop time on a denial without getting a "vig" for
it.

If you are a business owner, is it worth it to you to keep the $50 and never have my business again (at least $3k over the last five years).

If it's a legit deny you're probably not coming back anyways, that's probably how they look at it.

-Mike

 

[wilson911]

The other side of it is, would it be ok if the dealer sold the gun out from under you after the delay?

Very valid point. Except that once delayed I wanted to use the money they had for my wife to buy a different gun....this was a very common gun they likely had 30 in stock and only "held" mine for 15 minutes (so they weren't out anything) Still told it would be $50 charge.

 

[Racenet]

Thanks. Yes I actually did dispute with Amex. They refunded the withheld $50 while I was still sitting in the parking lot.

FWIW.....this is a LGS that I have done a lot of business with and have a decent reputation. I asked this here so I can assess the level of outrage I should feel.

Not any longer.

 

[drgrant]

FWIW.....this is a LGS that I have done a lot of business with and have a decent reputation. I asked this here so I can assess the level of outrage I should feel.

IMHO that's a little different then, I would be kind of pissed off at that point, especially if the staff knows you and knows you had successfully done other transactions
there before.... that's not being some pud on the street at that point.

-Mike

 

[strangenh]

Very valid point. Except that once delayed I wanted to use the money they had for my wife to buy a different gun....this was a very common gun they likely had 30 in stock and only "held" mine for 15 minutes (so they weren't out anything) Still told it would be $50 charge.

Can you please post this as a timeline?

Like...
Paid.
Did paperwork
Received delayed
Cancel transaction
Asked for my wife to buy a different gun + apply my money to her purchase
...

Because that, for an FFL, would be a big red flag. Not saying you're playing them, but I can see them doing the "Ok, we have a delay guy who knows he clears, and here's us doing a dance" charge.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Life can be so simple. You never pay till the BG check goes thru. Then you pay cash. Only cash. If the dealer has a problem with that, you walk. Jack.

 

[wilson911]

IMHO that's a little different then, I would be kind of pissed off at that point, especially if the staff knows you and knows you had successfully done other transactions
there before.... that's not being some pud on the street at that point.

-Mike

So I wouldnt say the staff "knows me". According to my spreadsheet I have bought 5 guns from them since 2016. And I understand they have the right to have their policies. But I was reasonable, and trying to use what they charged me on another gun for my wife. I think they have the policy for people that dick around on special orders or get buyers remorse.....but that wasnt the case for me.

So I support their right to enforce the policy. I just think common sense on their end would have been prudent. And to be sure that will be the last fifty dollars I ever give them.

 

[Garys]

To paraphrase the late Ernie Boch, "I pay cash for all my new and used guns." First, most shops give some sort of discount for cash. Second, there are no problems with credit card clearing companies refusing to process cash payments. Third, for some people, this plus a long coat keeps the purchase off their spouses radar!

As to the OP, I've never paid a penny on a gun until after there is a "Proceed." I've bought from about half a dozen dealers over the years and never once had one ask for payment before the NICS check came back.

Life can be so simple. You never pay till the BG check goes thru. Then you pay cash. Only cash. If the dealer has a problem with that, you walk. Jack.

 

[EJFudd]

Something is fishy here. Sounds like the OP got a delay, not a deny... and then decided that he didn't want to wait a few days to pick-up the gun he just bought. It sounds like that pissed off the dealer. Even still, unless the gun was a special order that the dealer is now stuck with... the $50 cancellation fee sounds strange. But I've never been delayed or denied and I've never backed out of an order, so what do I know?

 

[bottle-cap]

Who cancelled the transaction? You or shop? If only a delay, why not wait and get it once your BG check clears. If you cancelled transaction, I can see their point, however shifty their policy may be. If they cancelled it, they’re should be no charge id say.

 

[MAGA99]

So, where did this happen? And, who brings their wife to the gun store with them?? Maybe that’s why they charged you?

 

[drgrant]

So I wouldnt say the staff "knows me". According to my spreadsheet I have bought 5 guns from them since 2016. And I understand they have the right to have their policies. But I was reasonable, and trying to use what they charged me on another gun for my wife. I think they have the policy for people that dick around on special orders or get buyers remorse.....but that wasnt the case for me.

So I support their right to enforce the policy. I just think common sense on their end would have been prudent. And to be sure that will be the last fifty dollars I ever give them.

Did you break the sale (ask for refund) immediately after the delay? Or was this after leaving the store etc? I'm guessing this was just a stock item and not something they had ordered
for you.... if it was an order I suspect the rape would have been a lot more than 50 bucks...

Mind you crapping out on a delay is an unusual failure mode at a dealer (most people don't do this, barring weird exigent circumstances) so it's possible the people involved on their side were just unable to think about this logically.

-Mike

 

[enbloc]

FWIW.....this is a LGS that I have done a lot of business with and have a decent reputation. I asked this here so I can assess the level of outrage I should feel.

Call and talk to the owner. Tell him that you would like that $50 bucks as a store credit...

 

[wilson911]

Can you please post this as a timeline?

Like...
Paid.
Did paperwork
Received delayed
Cancel transaction
Asked for my wife to buy a different gun + apply my money to her purchase
...

Because that, for an FFL, would be a big red flag. Not saying you're playing them, but I can see them doing the "Ok, we have a delay guy who knows he clears, and here's us doing a dance" charge.

Paperwork
Paid
Delayed
Talked with attendant to refund/apply to wife's purchase
Cancelled transaction
Called amex
Went to dunks, shared croissant with dog
Ranted at wife all the way home
Plotted revenge
Came back to my senses
Consulted NES for perspective

I understand the red flag/straw purchase factor. But it wasnt like that. She was deciding on purchasing one anyway. I started my paperwork first. So I was charged. Less than ten minutes later, the delay and I asked if we could just transfer the money to what she was likely buying anyway.

 

[drgrant]

Can and talk to the owner. Tell him that you would like that $50 bucks as a store credit...

It's waaaay too late for that, he already used the nuclear option/set the boats on fire when he disputed the charge.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Paperwork
Paid
Delayed
Talked with attendant to refund/apply to wife's purchase
Cancelled transaction
Called amex
Went to dunks, shared croissant with dog
Ranted at wife all the way home
Plotted revenge
Came back to my senses
Consulted NES for perspective

I understand the red flag/straw purchase factor. But it wasnt like that. She was deciding on purchasing one anyway. I started my paperwork first. So I was charged. Less than ten minutes later, the delay and I asked if we could just transfer the money to what she was likely buying anyway.

Why did you crap out? Was it because you couldn't go back to pick up the gun or something? (this sort of matters, because I can see a dealer being more
lenient if it's like "well, I can't drive 300 miles back here to pick it up" etc. )

-Mike

 

[556USER]

Never been charged before a check that I can remember. 50 dollars for nothing is gay.

Even more so if they demand the $50 in mostly THREE dollar bills.

 

[enbloc]

It's waaaay too late for that, he already used the nuclear option/set the boats on fire when he disputed the charge.

-Mike

Doesn't hurt to ask as the long boat drifts into the sunset ablaze...

 

[strangenh]

Imagine you were an FFL and a "delay" resulted in a cancel immediately.

Was this an in-stock gun or was it a special order?

Come on, you know it would look weird. Also, your snarky timeline isn't helpful. Do you want an honest answer about this, or are you just venting for validation?

You're way better than this. I can tell you're ticked off by this (I probably would be, too - as an actual adult, I resent asking for permission for anything). What actually happened, and then we can do the "Ok, name the FFL" dance.

 

[Buck F]

If he paid cash he wouldn’t have been able to dispute the charge w his credit card company and would likely be out the $50.

 

[Drix]

Ownership =/= Posession.

If you've paid for the gun you've fulfilled part of a financial contract and own the gun, you just cannot posess it.

Except that once delayed I wanted to use the money they had for my wife to buy a different gun....this was a very common gun they likely had 30 in stock and only "held" mine for 15 minutes (so they weren't out anything) Still told it would be $50 charge.

Yeah I would have turned that down as a straw purchase. I know likely its not, but from the FFL POV it's coming across as "Hey, I couldn't buy this so my wife is going to buy this" which is about as shady as it gets.

If you think it will help, you can submit a complaint to the AG for deceptive business practices.

 

[wilson911]

Why did you crap out? Was it because you couldn't go back to pick up the gun or something? (this sort of matters, because I can see a dealer being more
lenient if it's like "well, I can't drive 300 miles back here to pick it up" etc. )

-Mike

The distance was probably a factor but not prohibitive. I think I was annoyed when i spoke reasonably with them about credit for the wife's purchase and was told their "policy" was $50 processing NO exceptions. Once I saw they were not interested in working with me I just said "just refund my money. Keep the fifty, it will save me from ever having to drive there again" I dint threaten or cause a scene. Just left and called amex.

My original question was asked because Amex asked me if I had ever taken possession of the property. I dont think I have?

 

[Fixxah]

Were you informed that the $50 was gone regardless?

 

[wilson911]

Imagine you were an FFL and a "delay" resulted in a cancel immediately.

Was this an in-stock gun or was it a special order?

Come on, you know it would look weird. Also, your snarky timeline isn't helpful. Do you want an honest answer about this, or are you just venting for validation?

You're way better than this. I can tell you're ticked off by this (I probably would be, too - as an actual adult, I resent asking for permission for anything). What actually happened, and then we can do the "Ok, name the FFL" dance.

Timeline wasnt meant to be snark. More humorous. I have a pretty good handle on my emotions and I am not worried about the $50.

The gun I git delayed on was literally the most common/cheap gun in every gun store. I'd bet they have 30 in stock. They were not put out at all by holding a gun for me. And in retrospect, it's their policy and they can keep the fifty bucks. Injust wont shop there anymore.

My post was more about the other questions that were raised, namely when do I actually own it and is it normal to be charged before they know they are even able to sell to me. I have never been charged before a got a Proceed (even at this store). I think it's a bad policy on their part, especially when I tried work with them.