What is your "Long Range" Rifle Platform?

[lukewarm_fuzz]

What’s the deal about aero solus? I see some vendors offering custom barrels in any chambers for solus including 223, but aero from what I see only supplies 2 types of bolts there and none fits 223?

Yeah no support yet, but knowing aero it’s probably on the way down the road. That would be a great option if they did

 

[PappyM3]

That doesn't make it a 1/2 moa rifle. That shows you had a lucky day.

Show me 3 consecutive 5 shot groups with that kind of group and it's a .5 moa rifle. This is the problem. People cherry pick a group and that becomes the only group of record. Well, what about the 1.2" groups you shot before and after this gem. I'm exaggerating to make a point.

How you test your rifles accuracy matters. Is someone's claim of a .3" group a single cherry picked 3 shot group?

I shoot multiple 5 shot groups and let the chips fall where they may. I will exclude CALLED flyers though.

If someone shot a 10-shot group under 1/2 MOA, I’d call it a half MOA rifle. Non-called fliers would likely be human or cartridge induced error.

Only other test of the rifle’s accuracy would be to test it in different positions to see if the stock flex changed POI, which is very possible with cheaper and/or non-bedded stocks.

 

[LuvDog]

I wasn’t gonna press the issue but yeah, I’d LOVE to see someone shoot a 10 round group in .5” with an $800-1000 rifle

Even with my gucci guns I probably do like an inch but I’m trash so maybe it’s me

love it then. 10 in there.
View attachment 876596

I think the perceived difference is how people are shooting and getting these groups.

Shooting 10 rds at 800-1000 yards, while balanced on a barricade are a lot different than shooting 10 rds at 100 yards off a front rest and rear bag.

 

[PappyM3]

love it then. 10 in there.
View attachment 876596

What are the details on that?

I’m seeing 1.2”. At 100 yards, that’s 1.15 MOA. If it’s at 200 yards, 0.58 MOA.

That’s still great if it’s 200, but not quite meeting the challenge.

* calculations based on the red square being 1”.

 

[paul73]

Yeah no support yet, but knowing aero it’s probably on the way down the road. That would be a great option if they did

confusing thing as barrels are supposedly can be offered already.
solus design has a replaceable bolt tip, so i am thinking about it now... PA had those actions on sale at $650 at some point, but ram sells complete barreled actions for a bit more than $1k, it is twice what i wanted to do for this toy, so, it is still a bit too much, and offered in stock calibers are not what i want.

if i would not have 2 ars in .308 i would be tempted to get a bolt one in 308, but my 20" ar10 shoots it very good, close to 1/2 moa on properly done reloads, so i am not too interested.
i guess 223 fell out of favor totally, if they did not even consider to offer a bolt option, just went with the mainstream 308 and 6.5cm.

 

[PappyM3]

I think the perceived difference is how people are shooting and getting these groups.

Shooting 10 rds at 800-1000 yards, while balanced on a barricade are a lot different than shooting 10 rds at 100 yards off a front rest and rear bag.

Disregarding all the external factors at range affecting accuracy, just shooting at 100 or 200 from unconventional positions can create precision issues with the rifle. And better quality/fit, and more rigid platforms will show more precision. Along with ensuring a stable shooting platform to stabilize that fraction of a second when the rifle starts to move back before the bullet exits the barrel.

 

[paul73]

What are the details on that?

I’m seeing 1.2”. At 100 yards, that’s 1.15 MOA. If it’s at 200 yards, 0.58 MOA.

That’s still great if it’s 200, but not quite meeting the challenge.

* calculations based on the red square being 1”.

it was 15 rounds total in there, 10 in that center hole.
was an ammo test, and i was curious to see if the result will stand. i know that nothing given will be good or satisfactory enough, ever, so, it is ok. i do not mind.

 

[PappyM3]

confusing thing as barrels are supposedly can be offered already.
solus design has a replaceable bolt tip, so i am thinking about it now... PA had those actions on sale at $650 at some point, but ram sells complete barreled actions for a bit more than $1k, it is twice what i wanted to do for this toy, so, it is still a bit too much, and offered in stock calibers are not what i want.

if i would not have 2 ars in .308 i would be tempted to get a bolt one in 308, but my 20" ar10 shoots it very good, close to 1/2 moa on properly done reloads, so i am not too interested.
i guess 223 fell out of favor totally, if they did not even consider to offer a bolt option, just went with the mainstream 308 and 6.5cm.

Another option is the ARC Coup De Grace action. They have replaceable bolt heads. They have a bit of a wait list though.

There’s also Zermatt, but they’re pricier and utilize a 90 degree bolt throw and a two lug design vs the Solus’ 60 degree three lug or the ARC’s 70 degree , if that matters to you.

 

[PappyM3]

it was 15 rounds total in there, 10 in that center hole.
was an ammo test, and i was curious to see if the result will stand. i know that nothing given will be good or satisfactory enough, ever, so, it is ok. i do not mind.

So was it 200? 15 or even 10 rounds in that group size is great, as I said. I’d be very … very pleased with it. But it’s not what was challenged. That’s my point.

 

[peterk123]

Disregarding all the external factors at range affecting accuracy, just shooting at 100 or 200 from unconventional positions can create precision issues with the rifle. And better quality/fit, and more rigid platforms will show more precision. Along with ensuring a stable shooting platform to stabilize that fraction of a second when the rifle starts to move back before the bullet exits the barrel.

We have started to practice shooting off our packs and trekking poles, seated, laying down, etc. You want hard? Sitting, nothing to lean back on and supporting the rifle with your trekking poles. All of a sudden 200 yards is very long. We recently figured out that at least for hunting we need to have the butt of that stock well supported and locked in the minute we are going past 100 yards in order to help ensure an ethical shot.

 

[PappyM3]

We have started to practice shooting off our packs and trekking poles, seated, laying down, etc. You want hard? Sitting, nothing to lean back on and supporting the rifle with your trekking poles. All of a sudden 200 yards is very long. We recently figured out that at least for hunting we need to have the butt of that stock well supported and locked in the minute we are going past 100 yards in order to help ensure an ethical shot.

Some of the best 200 yard-line sitting position shooters I’ve seen can bend over like a taco.

 

[paul73]

You want hard?

no, i do not want hard.

 

[LuvDog]

Disregarding all the external factors at range affecting accuracy, just shooting at 100 or 200 from unconventional positions can create precision issues with the rifle. And better quality/fit, and more rigid platforms will show more precision. Along with ensuring a stable shooting platform to stabilize that fraction of a second when the rifle starts to move back before the bullet exits the barrel.

Yes and that's part of my point. People think of their rifles as MOA or better or not based on their use.

So someone can take a rifle and put a 3 in bag rider on it, drop it in a Seb rest with a nice rear bag, and shoot it at 100 yards and feel like it's a sub MOA rifle.
But someone else takes that same exact rifle and shoots at 100 yards or greater, but shooting of a tank trap and they walk away feeling its MOA or more.

 

[lukewarm_fuzz]

Yes and that's part of my point. People think of their rifles as MOA or better or not based on their use.

So someone can take a rifle and put a 3 in bag rider on it, drop it in a Seb rest with a nice rear bag, and shoot it at 100 yards and feel like it's a sub MOA rifle.
But someone else takes that same exact rifle and shoots at 100 yards or greater, but shooting of a tank trap and they walk away feeling its MOA or more.

Capability of the system vs capability of the rifle are two different things, you describe that perfectly.

What I want to see is an off the shelf $800 rifle that shoots no worse than .5” at any given moment. Apparently Paul has one, which is pretty neat

 

[dcmdon]

If someone shot a 10-shot group under 1/2 MOA, I’d call it a half MOA rifle. Non-called fliers would likely be human or cartridge induced error.

Only other test of the rifle’s accuracy would be to test it in different positions to see if the stock flex changed POI, which is very possible with cheaper and/or non-bedded stocks.

You are right. It's going to be exceedingly difficult to get lucky with 10 shots in a row.
I know I can't shoot 10 shots of .308 without at least one self induced flyer.

With .223 or .22 LR I do better.

My original comment should have been more specific to reference people showing a .single .5" - 3 or 5 shot group and proclaiming their rifle a 1/2 moa rifle.

 

[lukewarm_fuzz]

Alright this thread motivated me. Ran out this morning to make this:


View: https://youtu.be/zNoZWnrOnzY?si=hlYU-jj5BHekNpCG


It was actually the perfect example, first five rounds under .3 then #6 showed what the real average was going to be.

Ended up being a .55 MOA but I'd expect over another 10 rounds that would convert to more like .75-.85+

This is the format if anyone wants to join in.

(all this to say I've never owned a half minute gun)

 

[LuvDog]

I'm glad to see at least your second to last shot finally hit

 

[paul73]

Alright this thread motivated me. Ran out this morning to make this:


View: https://youtu.be/zNoZWnrOnzY?si=hlYU-jj5BHekNpCG


It was actually the perfect example, first five rounds under .3 then #6 showed what the real average was going to be.

Ended up being a .55 MOA but I'd expect over another 10 rounds that would convert to more like .75-.85+

This is the format if anyone wants to join in.

(all this to say I've never owned a half minute gun)


View attachment 876717

It is accuracy of your ammo you show up there and not accuracy of the gun. Those groups are not saying whole picture unless you chrono each shot to see how it deviates from the median. It is only physics what barrel does, if 60% of shots land tight - it is what you have gun wise.
On my expensive 6 dasher if I put extra effort into ammo prep - it drives it via same hole at 100.
Do not overthink and stop searching for spots on the sun.

 

[lukewarm_fuzz]

Do not overthink and stop searching for spots on the sun.

What does that even mean

And SD was 7, didn’t check ES. A fair portion of it may also be my own ability, not just my reloads.

 

[Broc]

This seems like a fun challenge. Grab your rifle, one 10 round group, post video and/ or pics to the thread. No do overs or warmups!



Mediocrity is my passion !

I posted pics on NES. But most were 5-6 shot groups.

 

[Mudflap621]

It is accuracy of your ammo you show up there and not accuracy of the gun. Those groups are not saying whole picture unless you chrono each shot to see how it deviates from the median. It is only physics what barrel does, if 60% of shots land tight - it is what you have gun wise.
On my expensive 6 dasher if I put extra effort into ammo prep - it drives it via same hole at 100.
Do not overthink and stop searching for spots on the sun.

I’m confused… So what your saying is if I put three bullets in same hole than the other 7 are an inch apart I just count the 3?

 

[Mudflap621]

Alright this thread motivated me. Ran out this morning to make this:


View: https://youtu.be/zNoZWnrOnzY?si=hlYU-jj5BHekNpCG


It was actually the perfect example, first five rounds under .3 then #6 showed what the real average was going to be.

Ended up being a .55 MOA but I'd expect over another 10 rounds that would convert to more like .75-.85+

This is the format if anyone wants to join in.

(all this to say I've never owned a half minute gun)


View attachment 876717

This might make me finally pull the trigger on a triggercam…

 

[paul73]

I’m confused… So what your saying is if I put three bullets in same hole than the other 7 are an inch apart I just count the 3?

if 3 out of 10 makes you confused with what 60% is - it is on you, not on me.


and frankly conversations here make me really annoyed lately, go count what the f#ck it is you want, like i give a damn. it is a free country.

 

[PappyM3]

….
Ended up being a .55 MOA but I'd expect over another 10 rounds that would convert to more like .75-.85+

…

I posted pics on NES. But most were 5-6 shot groups.

Brian Litz’ table on statistical shot size increase is handy. It’s less useful with just 3 shot groups due to the low sample size. But it’s a pretty good way to extrapolate on 5 or 10 shot groups, using statistics.

So that 0.55 MOA 10 shot group would likely expand to ~0.7 MOA with 30 shots.

 

[Mudflap621]

if 3 out of 10 makes you confused with what 60% is - it is on you, not on me.


and frankly conversations here make me really annoyed lately, go count what the f#ck it is you want, like i give a damn. it is a free country.

I’m sorry you’re annoyed we’re all here to share knowledge. As many alluded I think you’re upselling the “multiple factory rifles that are 1/2” guns”.

 

[lukewarm_fuzz]

So that 0.55 MOA 10 shot group would likely expand to ~0.7 MOA with 30 shots.

Hah! That’s cool. Lines up well with my experience

 

[dcmdon]

Alright this thread motivated me. Ran out this morning to make this:


View: https://youtu.be/zNoZWnrOnzY?si=hlYU-jj5BHekNpCG


It was actually the perfect example, first five rounds under .3 then #6 showed what the real average was going to be.

Ended up being a .55 MOA but I'd expect over another 10 rounds that would convert to more like .75-.85+

This is the format if anyone wants to join in.

(all this to say I've never owned a half minute gun)

You illustrate perfectly how cherry picking a 3 shot group can overstate accuracy.

You are honest and clearly rigorous in your process and setup. But someone else who moved on after 3 rounds would have a .3 moa group to brag about.
Can you tell us what that rifle is made up of? It appears to be custom in .223.

 

[dcmdon]

It is accuracy of your ammo you show up there and not accuracy of the gun. Those groups are not saying whole picture unless you chrono each shot to see how it deviates from the median. It is only physics what barrel does, if 60% of shots land tight - it is what you have gun wise.
On my expensive 6 dasher if I put extra effort into ammo prep - it drives it via same hole at 100.
Do not overthink and stop searching for spots on the sun.

It's the accuracy of the entire system. Shooter, gun, and ammunition.

SD of the muzzle velocity is not a big factor at short ranges like that. At 100 yards for a .223 a 10 fps in MV only translates into about a .05" difference in drop.
I agree that quality of ammunition is important. But SD is pretty much irrelevant at 100 yards.
It's for this reason that when I'm loading ammo for shorter range use, even target use, I'm happy to use the powder drop that's bolted to my Dillon 650.
If I'm making long range ammo I'll uniform the flash holes, match head stamps, and weigh each charge in order to get a more consistent MV.

On another note - I'd like to build something to replace my 308 for longer range shooting. The 6mm dasher seems to be the thing to get if you are a reloader. Are you happy with it?

 

[PatMcD]

A lot of variable go into shooting groups for accuracy testing. Not the least of it is how well the shooter can hold and fire that rifle on bench/ bipod.
I test my match rifle with its 4.5x scope on it. I'm finding it hard to find a target where I can repeatedly hold in the exact same spot. Probably the best thing for me to do would be to put a higher powered scope on there for load testing.
These are what I can do for 5-shot groups. If I cherry-picked 3 rounds, it's a 1/4 minute rifle.
But it ain't.

 

[paul73]

The 6mm dasher seems to be the thing to get if you are a reloader. Are you happy with it?

yes and no.
the rifle, more specifically the action i got - mpa pmr pro 2 - is very finnicky in regard of feeding from the magazine.
i do not know if all 3 lug actions exhibit this issue, but it was a pita to deal with magazines and try to find the bending of lips to stop rounds from dropping in and getting stuck as bullet presses into the barrel instead on getting into chamber. i think i mostly fixed it, but i do not fully trust it anymore and did not take it yet to any timed environment because of this.

it shoots amazing, though. as of dasher caliber itself, brass is now available from alpha, i have fire formed my own from lapua 6BR and used alpha pre-made, both are equally fine. if i knew what i do now - i would probably go with a generic 6BR, to be honest, not sure if it was worth extra effort to get a dasher, but, "no ragrets" here.

dasher allows extra capacity for the powder, but if you load up to that capacity, brass does not last long, as after couple of reloads at max - that is anything above 31gr varget - primer pocket expands and, well, it is done. and that brass is not cheap to just toss it away after 2 shots done.

read here more about it. i am not sure if any dances around magazines fixes this issue reliably.

Curtis Axiom Dasher Feeding Issue

Hi all, I'm having issues with the feeding of Dasher through my Axiom action. I know a lot of people use this action/chambering combo, so it's got to be something on my end. Specs for everything I can think of below. The rounds are tipping over the lug abutments and driving into the face...

www.snipershide.com

when i shoot for my leisure - i 3d printed a feeding ramp and load it by hand one round at a time, it is way simpler that way.