WAS "The REAL Second Amendment - Senator Chris Murphy"'; now just another thread about masks in a "gun forum". Thanks guys!

[Wickedcoolname]

That's because you don't have any real training or experience in the subject at hand. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Here's my experience: I never wear a mask and I've never been vaccinated and I'm fine.

 

[Drix]

Here's my experience: I never wear a mask and I've never been vaccinated and I'm fine.

Literally the argument liberals use about guns.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Here's my experience: I never wear a mask and I've never been vaccinated and I'm fine.

Would you agree that an individual was fine to drive intoxicated if he asserted he had done so many times before without an accident? If not, how would that conclusion be logically different than your own?

Or accept that an elderly lifetime smoker without cancer, pulmonary or vascular problems was proof that cigarette smoking is safe?

You seem to be wedded to a conclusion rather than logical and rational thought. I'm still interested in your conclusions on:
(a) Does wearing a mask reduce the quantity of C19 viruses one is exposed to?
(b) Is risk of contagion increased with increased number of virus particles one is exposed to.

You conclusion suggests that you believe that the answer to "a", "b" or both is "no". Can you tell us which?

And insults like "you believe what you want to...." do not in any bolster the strength of your argument. It ranks right up there with "you know I am right..." on the bogosity scale.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

If masks can't block water they can't block covid. Simple as that.
Might as well try to keep mosquitoes out with a chain link fence.

 

[cathouse01]

4. How do N95 masks block SARS-CoV-2?​

N95 masks are designed to remove more than 95% of all particles that are at least 0.3 microns (µm) in diameter. In fact, measurements of the particle filtration efficiency of N95 masks show that they are capable of filtering ≈99.8% of particles with a diameter of ≈0.1 μm (Rengasamy et al., 2017). SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter, so N95 masks are capable of filtering most free virions, but they do more than that. How so? Viruses are often transmitted through respiratory droplets produced by coughing and sneezing. Respiratory droplets are usually divided into two size bins, large droplets (>5 μm in diameter) that fall rapidly to the ground and are thus transmitted only over short distances, and small droplets (≤5 μm in diameter). Small droplets can evaporate into 'droplet nuclei', remain suspended in air for significant periods of time and could be inhaled. Some viruses, such as measles, can be transmitted by droplet nuclei (Tellier et al., 2019). Larger droplets are also known to transmit viruses, usually by settling onto surfaces that are touched and transported by hands onto mucosal membranes such as the eyes, nose and mouth (CDC, 2020). The characteristic diameter of large droplets produced by sneezing is ~100 μm (Han et al., 2013), while the diameter of droplet nuclei produced by coughing is on the order of ~1 μm (Yang et al., 2007). At present, it is unclear whether surfaces or air are the dominant mode of SARS-CoV-2 transmission, but N95 masks should provide some protection against both (Jefferson et al., 2009; Leung et al., 2020).

 

[babygorilla]

4. How do N95 masks block SARS-CoV-2?​

N95 masks are designed to remove more than 95% of all particles that are at least 0.3 microns (µm) in diameter. In fact, measurements of the particle filtration efficiency of N95 masks show that they are capable of filtering ≈99.8% of particles with a diameter of ≈0.1 μm (Rengasamy et al., 2017). SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter, so N95 masks are capable of filtering most free virions, but they do more than that. How so? Viruses are often transmitted through respiratory droplets produced by coughing and sneezing. Respiratory droplets are usually divided into two size bins, large droplets (>5 μm in diameter) that fall rapidly to the ground and are thus transmitted only over short distances, and small droplets (≤5 μm in diameter). Small droplets can evaporate into 'droplet nuclei', remain suspended in air for significant periods of time and could be inhaled. Some viruses, such as measles, can be transmitted by droplet nuclei (Tellier et al., 2019). Larger droplets are also known to transmit viruses, usually by settling onto surfaces that are touched and transported by hands onto mucosal membranes such as the eyes, nose and mouth (CDC, 2020). The characteristic diameter of large droplets produced by sneezing is ~100 μm (Han et al., 2013), while the diameter of droplet nuclei produced by coughing is on the order of ~1 μm (Yang et al., 2007). At present, it is unclear whether surfaces or air are the dominant mode of SARS-CoV-2 transmission, but N95 masks should provide some protection against both (Jefferson et al., 2009; Leung et al., 2020).

The only problem with this argument is that it is about the efficacy of n95's, not the surgical masks, dust masks, or snot rags the CDC was advocating for. Additionally, at no point in OSHA and CDC's existence PRIOR to CV19, and after the invention of proper respiratory protective equipment, did they ever state that dust masks were for anything other than nuisance particulates that do not cause serious illness, nor that surgical masks were for protection of the surgeon from anything other than splash and the patient from spittle.

Just being Devil's Advocate

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If masks can't block water they can't block covid. Simple as that.
Might as well try to keep mosquitoes out with a chain link fence.

Can you answer my two questions regarding the assumptions you are implicitly making?
(a) Does wearing a mask reduce the quantity of C19 viruses one is exposed to?
(b) Is risk of contagion increased with increased number of virus particles one is exposed to?

 

[whatluck]

Well let's go back to the beginning- covid transfers in water droplets which get caught by the mask. If you're wearing one the water droplets you exhale will collect on the mask, as new droplets come at your mask from the outside the mask itself will stop some, some droplets will combine with the other droplets in the mask and get caught, and a smaller amount will pass through.

this has been debunked. the cdc finally admitted that covid spreads through aerosols not water droplets

White House diverges from CDC, focuses on aerosol COVID spread

www.cidrap.umn.edu

you must be overdue for a firmware update.

 

[Drix]

this has been debunked. the cdc finally admitted that covid spreads through aerosols not water droplets

White House diverges from CDC, focuses on aerosol COVID spread

www.cidrap.umn.edu

you must be overdue for a firmware update.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the process.

Droplets have a definition in medicine, they're typically liquids 5 microns or larger. Like a balloon, these liquids contain the virus and are expelled with say, a sneeze. Aerosols are the same, but significantly smaller than 5 micron, they're still droplets in the meaning that they are a ball of moisture containing (in this case containing the virus). Aerosols are bout 5 micrometers in size, so yes, significantly smaller than droplets. Everything I said still holds true for an aerosol, aerosolized covid isn't just a virus free floating in the air, it is in a bubble of moisture. Masks still work for the larger droplets, and the polarized nature of the water droplet still helps to attract the smaller particles to get caught up in the mask.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Can you answer my two questions regarding the assumptions you are implicitly making?
(a) Does wearing a mask reduce the quantity of C19 viruses one is exposed to?
(b) Is risk of contagion increased with increased number of virus particles one is exposed to?

Does wearing two pairs of underwear stop your farts from stinking?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Does wearing two pairs of underwear stop your farts from stinking?

Totally irrelevant, since we are talking about percentages of permeability of a gas through cloth vs water droplets through cloth/paper designed as a filter. Or, as my father used to say, "a fart is the sharpest thing in the world since it goes through you pants without making a hole".

Any particular reason you are responding with non-sequiturs rather than answer those two simple questions I posed? Does answering them conflict with the conclusion you are working to fit the facts to match?

 

[pastera]

Can you answer my two questions regarding the assumptions you are implicitly making?
(a) Does wearing a mask reduce the quantity of C19 viruses one is exposed to?
(b) Is risk of contagion increased with increased number of virus particles one is exposed to?

a) It may but likely will not if it is not changed often and worn correctly
b) absolutely - higher the initial exposure the faster the virus is able to grow to a level that can overwhelm the immune system.

The correct question is what percentage of the masking population uses them properly in all circumstances - that is essentially zero.

 

[pastera]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the process.

Droplets have a definition in medicine, they're typically liquids 5 microns or larger. Like a balloon, these liquids contain the virus and are expelled with say, a sneeze. Aerosols are the same, but significantly smaller than 5 micron, they're still droplets in the meaning that they are a ball of moisture containing (in this case containing the virus). Aerosols are bout 5 micrometers in size, so yes, significantly smaller than droplets. Everything I said still holds true for an aerosol, aerosolized covid isn't just a virus free floating in the air, it is in a bubble of moisture. Masks still work for the larger droplets, and the polarized nature of the water droplet still helps to attract the smaller particles to get caught up in the mask.

How well do wet masks contain droplets?

Researchers modeled what happens to respiratory droplets when they come in contact with wet masks. Their results show that damp masks are still effective at stopping these droplets from escaping the mask and being atomized into smaller, easier-to-spread aerosolized particles.

www.sciencedaily.com

Yet, users wear masks for long periods of time, and during this time the mask matrix becomes wet due to respiratory droplets released from breathing, coughing, sneezing etc ...
They found that, perhaps counterintuitively, wet masks actually make it more difficult for these respiratory droplets to penetrate and escape the mask, splintering into smaller, aerosolized particles; research has shown that these smaller particles are more likely to spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus by lingering in the air longer than the larger droplets that fall to the ground.

 

[Coyote33]

This ENTIRE PAGE is talking about face masks.

 

[Drix]

How well do wet masks contain droplets?

Researchers modeled what happens to respiratory droplets when they come in contact with wet masks. Their results show that damp masks are still effective at stopping these droplets from escaping the mask and being atomized into smaller, easier-to-spread aerosolized particles.

www.sciencedaily.com

Summary:​

Researchers modeled what happens to respiratory droplets when they come in contact with wet masks. Their results show that damp masks are still effective at stopping these droplets from escaping the mask and being atomized into smaller, easier-to-spread aerosolized particles.​

Your citation, not mine.

You're looking for a binary answer, medical research is mostly stacking percentages.

 

[pastera]

​

Summary:​

Researchers modeled what happens to respiratory droplets when they come in contact with wet masks. Their results show that damp masks are still effective at stopping these droplets from escaping the mask and being atomized into smaller, easier-to-spread aerosolized particles.​

Your citation, not mine.

You're looking for a binary answer, medical research is mostly stacking percentages.

If you read further you will find my quote where they contradict this and say that a wet mask can aerosolize droplets making them worse.
The idea is that masks only have a chance at working if worn properly which the vast majority of people do not.

 

[Drix]

If you read further you will find my quote where they contradict this and say that a wet mask can aerosolize droplets making them worse.
The idea is that masks only have a chance at working if worn properly which the vast majority of people do not.

Ugh.


They [the researchers] found that, perhaps counterintuitively, wet masks actually make it more difficult for these respiratory droplets to penetrate and escape the mask,

Yup, droplets don't escape a mask well.

[the droplets hit the mask] splintering into smaller, aerosolized particles; research has shown that these smaller particles are more likely to spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus by lingering in the air longer than the larger droplets that fall to the ground.

Yup. You've stopped a huge percentage of infectious droplets, and likely a healthy amount of aerosols, but are still left with aerosols because thats how it works.

In modeling the physics behind why this happens, they discovered that two very different mechanisms are present for hydrophobic masks like common surgical masks, versus hydrophilic masks like the cloth varieties.

So we built a study...

They found that droplets from a cough or sneeze have to be traveling at a higher velocity to be pushed through a mask when wet, compared to when it's dry. On hydrophobic masks with low absorptivity,like surgical masks, the respiratory droplets form small beads on the mask's surface, providing additional resistance for the impacted droplets against possible penetration.

As I keep saying.

"In summary, we showed that wet masks are capable of restricting ballistic respiratory droplets better than dry masks," said Sombuddha Bagchi, first author of the paper and a mechanical engineering PhD student at the Jacobs School of Engineering at UC San Diego.

They agree with me, this goes for wet and dry masks, but you're focusing on:

In March 2021, this same team published a paper in Science Advances detailing the effectiveness of dry masks of one, two, and three layers in stopping respiratory droplets from penetrating the mask. Using a similar methodology to this wet mask experiment, they showed that three-layered surgical masks are most effective at stopping large droplets from a cough or sneeze from getting atomized into smaller droplets. These large cough droplets can penetrate through the single- and double-layer masks and atomize to much smaller droplets, which is particularly crucial since these smaller aerosol droplets are able to linger in the air for longer periods of time.

And here's where your binary argument comes in. You think these exist either or, and they don't. You also seem to believe that their existance at all negates any kind of quantity that might be needed to over power an immune system.

You might like the following study: Duguid J.P. The numbers and the sites of origin of the droplets expelled during expiratory activities. The study qualitatively quantifies the presence of aerosols vs droplets on an average:



There is always an aerosol presence. Wearing a mask, like using a water filter, filters out some but not all of the virus . A wet mask may aerosolize droplets, but it's going to still be less infectious matter than maskless, but thats for the sender of the virus, for a receiver you're also adding a temporary layer of protection.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Totally irrelevant, since we are talking about percentages of permeability of a gas through cloth vs water droplets through cloth/paper designed as a filter. Or, as my father used to say, "a fart is the sharpest thing in the world since it goes through you pants without making a hole".

Any particular reason you are responding with non-sequiturs rather than answer those two simple questions I posed? Does answering them conflict with the conclusion you are working to fit the facts to match?

If you think masks prevent the spread of the Chinese flu then I can't help you.
Once again, water vapor passes right through masks, and water molecules are far larger than the virus.
So no, I don't believe masks help one iota. In fact, I think they are dangerous. Walking around with a damp cloth on you face can not possibly be good for you.
Furthermore, I think that anyone who wears a mask is an idiot.

 

[Junior314]

Can you guys take the mask debate somewhere else. Seriously nobody cares about masks anymore.

 

[pastera]

Ugh.


They [the researchers] found that, perhaps counterintuitively, wet masks actually make it more difficult for these respiratory droplets to penetrate and escape the mask,

Yup, droplets don't escape a mask well.

[the droplets hit the mask] splintering into smaller, aerosolized particles; research has shown that these smaller particles are more likely to spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus by lingering in the air longer than the larger droplets that fall to the ground.

Yup. You've stopped a huge percentage of infectious droplets, and likely a healthy amount of aerosols, but are still left with aerosols because thats how it works.

In modeling the physics behind why this happens, they discovered that two very different mechanisms are present for hydrophobic masks like common surgical masks, versus hydrophilic masks like the cloth varieties.

So we built a study...

They found that droplets from a cough or sneeze have to be traveling at a higher velocity to be pushed through a mask when wet, compared to when it's dry. On hydrophobic masks with low absorptivity,like surgical masks, the respiratory droplets form small beads on the mask's surface, providing additional resistance for the impacted droplets against possible penetration.

As I keep saying.

"In summary, we showed that wet masks are capable of restricting ballistic respiratory droplets better than dry masks," said Sombuddha Bagchi, first author of the paper and a mechanical engineering PhD student at the Jacobs School of Engineering at UC San Diego.

They agree with me, this goes for wet and dry masks, but you're focusing on:

In March 2021, this same team published a paper in Science Advances detailing the effectiveness of dry masks of one, two, and three layers in stopping respiratory droplets from penetrating the mask. Using a similar methodology to this wet mask experiment, they showed that three-layered surgical masks are most effective at stopping large droplets from a cough or sneeze from getting atomized into smaller droplets. These large cough droplets can penetrate through the single- and double-layer masks and atomize to much smaller droplets, which is particularly crucial since these smaller aerosol droplets are able to linger in the air for longer periods of time.

And here's where your binary argument comes in. You think these exist either or, and they don't. You also seem to believe that their existance at all negates any kind of quantity that might be needed to over power an immune system.

You might like the following study: Duguid J.P. The numbers and the sites of origin of the droplets expelled during expiratory activities. The study qualitatively quantifies the presence of aerosols vs droplets on an average:

View attachment 666125

There is always an aerosol presence. Wearing a mask, like using a water filter, filters out some but not all of the virus . A wet mask may aerosolize droplets, but it's going to still be less infectious matter than maskless, but thats for the sender of the virus, for a receiver you're also adding a temporary layer of protection.

I'm not saying masks can't work because they can.
I am saying that they only work under controlled conditions which do not translate into geralized real world results.

A person wearing a wet/damp mask who coughs or sneezes into the mask will aerosolize the liquid mask in the mask. A wet/damp mask increases leakage and dirty air exchange. So the mask must be changed often but really only happens in a medical setting.
Real world testing shows masking only 10-20% effective because very few people properly use them. Worse is that they handle them so poorly they actually put themselves at higher risk.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If you think masks prevent the spread of the Chinese flu then I can't help you.
Once again, water vapor passes right through masks, and water molecules are far larger than the virus.
So no, I don't believe masks help one iota. In fact, I think they are dangerous. Walking around with a damp cloth on you face can not possibly be good for you.
Furthermore, I think that anyone who wears a mask is an idiot.

Once again, you offer proof by assertion without providing a direct and simple answer to two simple direct questions I asked. Is this a reading comprehension problem or are the questions "inconvenient"?

I'll make it simple by starting with one:

Do masks reduce the amount of virus inhaled, or does one inhale the same amount of virus as with no mask present?

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Once again, you offer proof by assertion without providing a direct and simple answer to two simple direct questions I asked. Is this a reading comprehension problem or are the questions "inconvenient"?

I'll make it simple by starting with one:

Do masks reduce the amount of virus inhaled, or does one inhale the same amount of virus as with no mask present?

For that last time, no. Masks don't prevent the wearer from getting the Wu flu, and in my opinion, anyone who wears one is silly.
I am bored with you now.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

For that last time, no. Masks don't prevent the wearer from getting the Wu flu, and in my opinion, anyone who wears one is silly.
I am bored with you now.

You repeat your absurdity by restating your conclusion and not answering the simple questions.

I asked if masks reduce the virus content. You did not answer.
I asked the quantify of virus impacts the risk. You did not answer.

You are demonstrating either a failure to comprehend; an intentional avoidance of simple questions the answers to which may not match you forgone conclusion; or a lack of basic reasoning skills and intelligence. I'm done.

 

[cathouse01]

If you think masks prevent the spread of the Chinese flu then I can't help you.
Once again, water vapor passes right through masks, and water molecules are far larger than the virus.
So no, I don't believe masks help one iota. In fact, I think they are dangerous. Walking around with a damp cloth on you face can not possibly be good for you.
Furthermore, I think that anyone who wears a mask is an idiot.

A water molecule is about 0.27 nanometer across. The smallest of SARS-CoV-2 virus particles range from 0.07 micrometer to 0.09 micrometer across. A micrometer is a millionth of a meter. A nanometer is a billionth of a meter. So the smallest SARS-CoV-2 viruses are between 70 and 90 nanometers, easily over 250 times bigger than a water molecule. Plus the the primary purpose of the mask is to either trap (prevent from the wearer from expelling them into the atmosphere) or filter (prevent the wearer from inhaling them from the atmosphere) the water droplet nuclei that the virus "rides" on. These droplets average about 1 micrometer (1,000 nanometers) in size, over 3,000 times as big as a single water molecule.

 

[pastera]

Once again, you offer proof by assertion without providing a direct and simple answer to two simple direct questions I asked. Is this a reading comprehension problem or are the questions "inconvenient"?

I'll make it simple by starting with one:

Do masks reduce the amount of virus inhaled, or does one inhale the same amount of virus as with no mask present?

Masks in general? No as evidenced by numerous studies showing a 10-15% effectiveness with the general public.

A good quality N95 mask properly worn and handled by a trained, conscientious person? Very likely to provide significant benefit.

 

[Boghog1]

I have learned so much about mask in this thread I think k the OP needs to change the title of it and maybe it will drift back to being about a 2A senator

 

[Quantavious G]

I think the more important question here is, "Is, or was, covid ever really dangerous enough to warrant masks, vaccine's, and shutdowns"

I say no.

 

[milktree]

A covid virus is smaller than a water molecule. Wear your mask on a cold day and watch the water vapor. If the mask won't stop water it won't stop a virus.

No. I'm saying that covid is way smaller than the water vapor that easily passes through you mask. If water gets through, covid gets through. Therfore, masks are useless for covid.

This factually false, and trivially easy to look up.

Water is only three atoms: two hydrogen and an oxygen.

The COVID virus is over 50 million atoms.

A water molecule is 0.28 nanometers diameter.

COVID virus diameter is about 100 nanometers.

Surely you can see that 100 is bigger than 0.28.

If you can’t get basic facts right and double down on your ignorance it’s hard to take anything else you say on the matter seriously.

 

[allen-1]

I have learned so much about mask in this thread I think k the OP needs to change the title of it and maybe it will drift back to being about a 2A senator

I was wondering why a thread I started about that a**h*** Murphy and his "real second amendment" was suddenly getting new posts.

 

[Coyote33]

Please change the name of this thread.