Unlicensed concealed carry

[TonyDedo]

Let me preface this post by saying that I am NOT carrying concealed on a restricted permit, not am I advocating doing so. However, this topic came up in conversation this afternoon. I was the only actual gun owner in the conversation, so I figured I’d present it to a more educated crowd and see where the discussion goes.

Premise: One should carry a concealed firearm regardless of whether one has a permit to do so or not. This debate applies particularly to those who are licensed to own a firearm, but not to carry concealed.

Discuss…

 

[The Goose]

I would never suggest or advocate that anyone should violate any law. I will say that personal protection/self defense is an absolute right that trumps any and all artificial legal structures no matter what. Do what you must!

 

[Cross-X]

Don't carry loaded and concealed unless and until you have a valid unrestricted Class A LTC, or a law enforcement officer's badge.

No foolin'!

 

[adweisbe]

I prefer to stay in my gilded cage.

 

[JimConway]

Carrying in a NPE environment

Carrying in a non premissive Environment (NPE) is a tough subject. I see it as a toss up between my safety and the possible risk of being spotted. As you are aware, I am almost always armed unless I am home with the doors locked. When I say "always armed". I mean that I always have a weapon available to me, usually with one or more on the mid line and another on the high line. There are places where you just can not carry a gun, like a courthouse or while flying. In those cases something other than a firearm will have to be used if needed.
Most people just are not aware of the number of good weapons that are alway near them, no matter what the environment is. There are all sorts of viable weapons that can be carried anywhere. As I am writing this, I have a steel pen in my pocket, a Wilderness Instructor's belt. In my travel bag I always have a stylus light, a roll of quarters and a large bandana. As an improvised weapon a roll of quarters in a sock or the bandana is a great impact weapon. Even a rollled up magazine can be made to work very well.

While it is best to have a firearm when you can, it is even better to always have a useable weapon at all times.

 

[The Goose]

While it is best to have a firearm when you can, it is even better to always have a useable weapon at all times.

Words to live by and what I was trying (badly) to say. Thanks Jim!

 

[TonyDedo]

Of course no one wants to publicly advocate breaking the law. But a thread full of people saying, “don’t break the law” isn’t any fun. We’re talking theoretical here. Here’s the argument that was given by my companion:

So long as the firearm is concealed properly (deep concealment, maybe even in a purse or bag as opposed to on the person), detection is very unlikely.

Given that detection is unlikely, the only time it would be known that you’re carrying a firearm would be if you had to use it.

The only time you would use a firearm is if you or your loved ones were in immediate danger of severe bodily injury or death.

Given that situation, would you rather be prosecuted for illegally carrying a concealed weapon, or dead?

Obviously you would choose the former, thus justifying unlicensed concealed carry.


btw, good post, Jim!

 

[JimConway]

The Goose
My pleasure, Sir

 

[pj150]

Well, if you think about it- living in this state, if a situation arose and you had to use a firearm in self defence, legal or not, you still would be arrested and charges brought against you. Even if you were not in the wrong. (Discussed many times so no need to rehash this argument) Chances are that the 'carrying a firearm without a FID/LTC' charge would be dropped for the greater charge of murder or manslaughter (best case).

You see this time and time again with the gun crimes already happening in this state. You will be treated no different than the gang bangers killing each other. So in essence, it makes no difference carrying with or without a license.

I believe it has also been established that if you 'got made' and stopped by the police, you will most likely have your LTC revoked in short order. So concealed means concealed. That 'automatic insulin pump', cellphone, pager, 'I'm just happy to see you' bump on your hip is just that.

I don't condone carrying without proper license but the reality is that it doesn't matter if you are legal or not. That license is only good to show the nice man behind the counter that you're ok to purchase.

 

[AntiqueWeapons.org]

I open carry. Personally, I feel that open carry acts as a deterent to any would be predators. A would be thief/mugger/whatever may think twice about attacking if a weapon is seen in plain view.

I also feel that concealed carry adds a fraction of a second to the amount of time it takes to ready the weapon, & often the act of reaching for a concealed weapon prompts the attacker to make a decision, which is often offensive action.

 

[Cross-X]

I open carry. Personally, I feel that open carry acts as a deterent to any would be predators. A would be thief/mugger/whatever may think twice about attacking if a weapon is seen in plain view.

I also feel that concealed carry adds a fraction of a second to the amount of time it takes to ready the weapon, & often the act of reaching for a concealed weapon prompts the attacker to make a decision, which is often offensive action.

Open carry is a fool's paradise.

Your gun is only yours so long as you can keep it.

If you carry openly, you are inviting a bad guy to show you that his action is indeed faster than your reaaction.

With practice, you should be able to draw from concealment, fire and hit center mass on a humanoid target seven yards away, all within 1.5 seconds or less.

The is no legitimate need or justification for open carry.

If you must carry openly, spend the money to get an LE retention holster, and practice, practice, practice with it.

 

[pipmaster1971]

Open carry is a fool's paradise.

Your gun is only yours so long as you can keep it.

If you carry openly, you are inviting a bad guy to show you that his action is indeed faster than your reaaction.

With practice, you should be able to draw from concealment, fire and hit center mass on a humanoid target seven yards away, all within 1.5 seconds or less.

The is no legitimate need or justification for open carry.

If you must carry openly, spend the money to get an LE retention holster, and practice, practice, practice with it.

Agreed. Although I respect the poster's right to open carry I'm not sure it's a good idea. There are two possible outcomes if a BG sees you open carry:

1) You are his first target...you get shot before you know what's happening.

2) It deters a crime.

I would also imagine a lot of "OMG!!! Call the cops!!!" from the average citizen.

Back to the OPs question. IMO you need to take each situation on its merits, and weigh up your own risk/benefits. I rarely travel into bad areas, the risk of confronting a BG for me is very low. It is probably statsitically much more likely that I'll be stopped by a cop for some reason (and the concealed gun found) than I would ever need to use it in a defensive situation. So in my case the risk of carry without a license would be too great. IF however I had to visit a really bad neighborhood then that risk/benefit balance may shift.

 

[Cross-X]

To the OP:

If you insist on openly carrying a firearm, you must make damn sure you are legal to do so.

 

[AntiqueWeapons.org]

I would also imagine a lot of "OMG!!! Call the cops!!!" from the average citizen.

That's happened already.

I was walking down the street, went into a store to buy cigarettes & a soda. Bought my stuff & then left. As I was walking back home I heard sirens behind me. When I turned around to see what was going on I saw the 3 cruisers at the store I just left & was wondering what happened there after I left until I saw the clerk pointing his finger at me.

I saw the officers begin entering their vehicles so I decided to stop walking & just lit a cigarette. They were nice gentleman who approached me in an apologetic manner & they explained to me that the clerk was freaked out & called them & they advised me that they're only stopping for appearances so the clerk don't think they're ignoring him. We just chatted for a couple minutes.. Gave em my name, address, etc & they were on their way.

 

[adweisbe]

The is no legitimate need or justification for open carry.

Wow! Well it's a good thing I know that now.

I guess VCDL and Ohioans for concealed carry were all just a bad idea. You know Ohio? That shall issue state?

If you must carry openly, spend the money to get an LE retention holster

On that note, I have a Safariland 070 for a railed Sig 220/226 that I would be happy to sell to any aspiring open carriers. I don't need the extra attention.

And why did open carry come up in this thread. Isn't it off topic?

 

[pipmaster1971]

That's happened already.

I was walking down the street, went into a store to buy cigarettes & a soda. Bought my stuff & then left. As I was walking back home I heard sirens behind me. When I turned around to see what was going on I saw the 3 cruisers at the store I just left & was wondering what happened there after I left until I saw the clerk pointing his finger at me.

I saw the officers begin entering their vehicles so I decided to stop walking & just lit a cigarette. They were nice gentleman who approached me in an apologetic manner & they explained to me that the clerk was freaked out & called them & they advised me that they're only stopping for appearances so the clerk don't think they're ignoring him. We just chatted for a couple minutes.. Gave em my name, address, etc & they were on their way.

Yikes....I suppose it depends where you live. Down in Nashua I imagine it would cause a significant amount of alarm....Up in the mountains though, it would probably be OK.

 

[truthprotector]

Your first priority in life is the safety of your family and your home. nuff said......

 

[Mikey]

Bad Idea, both Carry without a permit and open carry.

For those who feel they must then you better work hard on moving to a free state.

 

[MarkM]

That's happened already.

I was walking down the street, went into a store to buy cigarettes & a soda. Bought my stuff & then left. As I was walking back home I heard sirens behind me. When I turned around to see what was going on I saw the 3 cruisers at the store I just left & was wondering what happened there after I left until I saw the clerk pointing his finger at me.

I saw the officers begin entering their vehicles so I decided to stop walking & just lit a cigarette. They were nice gentleman who approached me in an apologetic manner & they explained to me that the clerk was freaked out & called them & they advised me that they're only stopping for appearances so the clerk don't think they're ignoring him. We just chatted for a couple minutes.. Gave em my name, address, etc & they were on their way.

I would have thought the cops would have been more interested in the kind of gun you were open carrying (due to it's unusual look) as I thought you were a federally prohibited person: were you carrying an antique (pre-1899*) pistol or were you successful in getting your past problems expunged?

If not you really should think twice before posting some of the things you post on this forum.

(* antique in bother Federal (pre-1899) and NH definitions ("An antique pistol, gun cane, or revolver, for the purposes of this chapter, means any pistol, gun cane, or revolver utilizing an early type of ignition, including, but not limited to, flintlocks, wheel locks, matchlocks, percussions and pin-fire, but no pistol, gun cane, or revolver which utilizes readily available center fire or rim-fire cartridges which are in common, current use shall be deemed to be an antique pistol, gun cane, or revolver.")

 

[JimConway]

Carrying in a NPE environment

The most vitally important thing that you MUST do before carrying a weapon is to turn on and engage your brain. After that is done, turn on your awareness.

Except of a hunting situation, I can see little value in open carry in the Northeast. However, in Arizona I have seen women pushing baby carriages in the supermarket with guns on their hips and no one paid any attention.
If you are in a building about to be robbed, the very last thing that I would want would be open carry or even a gun that was printing. I am sure in that case that I would be the first victim from a shot in the back of the head

 

[drgrant]

Of course no one wants to publicly advocate breaking the law. But a thread full of people saying, “don’t break the law” isn’t any fun. We’re talking theoretical here. Here’s the argument that was given by my companion:

So long as the firearm is concealed properly (deep concealment, maybe even in a purse or bag as opposed to on the person), detection is very unlikely.

IMO off body is bad because you could possibly leave the (bag)
somewhere by accident, etc. Thuggish authority types also like searching
bags (ergo, like the MBTA/NY subway random bag searches). As opposed
to say, if the gun is virtually in your crotch (eg thunderwear) nothing short of a
full pat down is going to find it. Typically the only person that can molest you
in that manner is either a criminal or someone you submit to. (eg, a security checkpoint).

Given that detection is unlikely, the only time it would be known that you’re carrying a firearm would be if you had to use it.

The only time you would use a firearm is if you or your loved ones were in immediate danger of severe bodily injury or death.

Given that situation, would you rather be prosecuted for illegally carrying a concealed weapon, or dead?

Obviously you would choose the former, thus justifying unlicensed concealed carry.

Yes, but it's important to know that this is more or less a "one use
ticket". If you get "compromised" in the process by some exigent
means, you could be really screwed, legally speaking.

In most locales carrying off license ends up being an F-bomb (although I don't remember
what kind of violation is carrying on a restricted LTC-A, etc.... I know it is not as severe
as carrying off license, but I am pretty sure one would lose their LTC and get some other penalties.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I open carry. Personally, I feel that open carry acts as a deterent to any would be predators. A would be thief/mugger/whatever may think twice about attacking if a weapon is seen in plain view.

While I agree with this most of the time, the street goes both ways.

And if you're dealing with BG's that have a lot of audacity, they may decide
to shoot you first. So in some cases, you may be exposing yourself to
extra danger.

The other (imo, bigger) problem is that in most parts of the US open carry
will get you lots of unwanted attention by local law enforcement- and that level
of attention may even vary from place to place. Due to this I would not
do it unless I was absolutely sure of what the local LE posture was. Not
to mention customers of mine would probably go apeshit if I came into their
house wearing an openly carried sidearm. (some of them happen to be
flaming libs and the like, which despite their mental malfunctions, I enjoy
depriving them of money by offering computer services... lol)

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Well, if you think about it- living in this state, if a situation arose and you had to use a firearm in self defence, legal or not, you still would be arrested and charges brought against you. Even if you were not in the wrong. (Discussed many times so no need to rehash this argument) Chances are that the 'carrying a firearm without a FID/LTC' charge would be dropped for the greater charge of murder or manslaughter (best case).

Yeah, but what if the DA/prosecutor decides that hanging you on murder or
manslaughter is improbable, so they just decide to hit you with a gun charge
instead? Doesn't happen that often, but is a possibility. Some of them
want to get ANY type of conviction. Not sure about MA, but that tends
to be the trend in some other anti states.

-Mike

 

[Admin]

If not you really should think twice before posting some of the things you post on this forum.

+1 If you are a convicted felon and you are openly carrying a modern sidearm you are breaking the law. Please tell me I am mistaken before I ban your account and lock your I.P. address.

Northeastshooters.com does not condone any illegal activity what so ever.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Anyone even contemplating open carry, SHOULD take a "weapons retention" class FIRST!!!

I carried openly for 17 years, many of those years with a non-retention holster (before we were required to buy them). In the police academy we were required to take a weapons retention class and it was a real eye-opener!

Natural reaction on a gun grab is for you to do things that actually HELP the person grabbing the gun. "Pin and Spin" is your friend. Even with retention holster, bad guys practice in prison to disarm officers. What chance do you think you have with your $35 holster?

Let's paint a scenario . . .

- Two bad guys go into a store to rob it, spot you. One distracts you with something inane like "do you have the time" while the other bg grabs your gun. Now you are out of the fight and they continue with Plan A . . . the robbery.

- The ugly scenario . . . a bg like the perp in Conway NH comes in to rob the store, sees your gun and shoots you in the head first. Then he continues on the rest of his "plan".

I see NO advantage to carrying openly at all. Those in uniform MUST do so. Those NOT in uniform should CCW concealed well enough so that the element of surprise is on their side in case TSHTF!

 

[AntiqueWeapons.org]

I would have thought the cops would have been more interested in the kind of gun you were open carrying (due to it's unusual look) as I thought you were a federally prohibited person: were you carrying an antique (pre-1899*) pistol or were you successful in getting your past problems expunged?

If not you really should think twice before posting some of the things you post on this forum.

(* antique in bother Federal (pre-1899) and NH definitions ("An antique pistol, gun cane, or revolver, for the purposes of this chapter, means any pistol, gun cane, or revolver utilizing an early type of ignition, including, but not limited to, flintlocks, wheel locks, matchlocks, percussions and pin-fire, but no pistol, gun cane, or revolver which utilizes readily available center fire or rim-fire cartridges which are in common, current use shall be deemed to be an antique pistol, gun cane, or revolver.")

On the contrary, perhaps you should think twice before responding with false accusations.

You THOUGHT & jumped to conclusions based on questions I asked because I was concerned that it may have been a possibility.

Majority of the responses to me were that people suggested I speak to an attorney to get the answers to my questions while others simply jumped to answer outright without knowing fully the circumstances & facts.

I am NOT a prohibited person. While I did make a mistake & bad judgement call many years ago, my rights have been restored.

 

[Admin]

On the contrary, perhaps you should think twice before responding with false accusations.

Didn't you post publically that you are a felon?

 

[AntiqueWeapons.org]

+1 If you are a convicted felon and you are openly carrying a modern sidearm you are breaking the law. Please tell me I am mistaken before I ban your account and lock your I.P. address.

Northeastshooters.com does not condone any illegal activity what so ever.

You are mistaken. See above response.

 

[Admin]

Hmmm... Want to try that again???

Bye bye...

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=205939&postcount=113

Because I have consulted several attorneys, & It's going to cost me more than 1/3 of annual income to fight.

Some were very vague & non specific & advised that I come in to get counsel, while others asked questions regarding specifics & advised me that it is a no win battle.

My best guess is that these attorneys only deal with FID/LTC denials & nothing regarding GCA 1968 which is what I need.

I don't need LTC, because I have no desire or need to carry a handgun in public, nor do I need FID, because I am a NH resident, however, due to the GCA 1968, I fall under "prohibited person", & from what I am hearing on the phone, there is nothing any single attorney can accomplish for me, other than fight for a sealed record, which is also a no win because of the restrictions placed on this by the state & I do not qualify.


Bitch & moan & post here ..
I figured there may have been a slight possibility that someone who has gone through this process or has had experience with similar issue might have offered some insight, or perhaps the name of any particular mechanism I could utilize.

 

[Scrivener]

Derek, you heartless b*****d! Using his own posts and simple logic to discredit the latest absurdity. You're also stealing my act.

Are you aware it's illegal to practice law without a license?